Bruyneel vs Riis

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by donhix1, Aug 8, 2004.

  1. donhix1

    donhix1 New Member

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    Who is the better director sportif. Bruyneel has either created the formula to turn Lance into a Tour de France dominating machine or has ridden on his coat tails.
    Riis has taken riders and turned there careers around (Basso, Hamilton, Jaksche, ect..). Last I looked CSC is the number one team in the UCI rankings.
     
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  2. musette

    musette New Member

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    Bruyneel was instrumental to LA's becoming the racer he is. He implanted the idea that LA could win the GC for the TdF into LA's mind.
     
  3. Craig Walsh

    Craig Walsh New Member

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    And their planning is immaculate.

    However, at CSC they probably have more riders capable of winning the Tour.
     
  4. musette

    musette New Member

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    I wouldn't agree with CSC having more people who could win the Tour. Who, besides Basso and possibly Sastre, could win the tour? Azevedo has a better chance of winning the tour than Sastre. Plus, it doesn't matter how many people a team has that are close to winning the tour. The question is whether one has one good rider who could win it.
     
  5. gntlmn

    gntlmn New Member

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    Maybe that's their problem--too many wannabees.
     
  6. jonny_velo

    jonny_velo New Member

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    i think this year csc did not have the belief that basso would be top 5...

    riis gave basso the odd rider, the majority of the team given free reign.. voigt, pill, sastre up to a point...

    even if csc put everything behind basso, i think maybe a year or two to early for him to really battle with lance, and maybe take the win.... thats from a huge basso fan,

    i think what riis does do is give the riders the confidence in there abillites, riders such as jasche, voigt etc this year, hamilton in past...

    i think with bruyneel, his job is slightly easier, with lance as he has a very special athlete there with huge mental abillities to train and compete.. i think with or without the team they have at usp lance would be very hard to beat... congratullations on your sixth lance... not a huge fan but think he is great for the sport, also very big supporter of LAF...

    jb
     
  7. derKaiser

    derKaiser New Member

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    The question is: did Lance make Johan, or did Johan make Lance. Who knows if Walter Godefroot, everyone's favorite directeur sportif to hate, might not have enjoyed similar success with Lance Armstrong. Johan may be brilliant, but there's no way to prove Lance's success is indebted to Johan. But Riis, on the other hand, has clearly turned mediocre/aging riders into genuine stars --- witness Jalabert, Hamilton, and Basso but also less recognized riders like Jakob Piil, Jorg Jacksche, Jens Voigt, Carlos Sastre, and Bobby Julich. Riis turns a good rider into a great rider when no one else could. He also wins year-round, an area in which Bruyneel is not quite so successful. Hamilton won Liege last year, for example, but neither Lance nor Hincapie have won a major classic (Hincapie's win at Ghent-Wevelgem was only a taste of what he could have achieved). Bruyneel is good, yes, but Riis is great.
     
  8. donhix1

    donhix1 New Member

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    I think Tyler Hamilton is the rider he is today because of Riis. I doubt that Riis didn't think that Basso could be in the top five as was said in an earlier post, his stratedgy was probably to hide Basso's form. Bruyneel really can't be judged until he gets results post Armstrong.
     
  9. Craig Walsh

    Craig Walsh New Member

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    If Azevedo was a better TT ovr the flats MOh could very well have got secon or 3rd.
     
  10. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    It's an interesting question.

    Riis, as others have pointed out, has managed to improve mature cyclists
    and to develop talent within CSC.
    CSC ride for an entire season in my opinion.

    Bruyneel on the other hand has focussed his teams season to defending LA's
    TDF jersey.
    There is no doubt in my mind that Hincapie, Landis, Aczevedo etc could, if
    supported more readily, go out and win races.
    However, for the USPS team, the TDF is the priority and every other objective
    is secondary to this objective.

    Of course, the truly great managers like Guimard/Echevrrai/Saiz, could get their teams to win all races, all season long.
    I rate Bruyneel highly and as I do Riis.

    But neither of them are in the Guimard/Saiz/Lefevre/Farretti/Echevarra level yet.
     
  11. Craig Walsh

    Craig Walsh New Member

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    So if USPS weren't so focused on the Tour, and gave equal importance say to the other races Bruyneel could be ranked among the great DS'?

    Personally if most of your sponsors profits came from the Tour, you would be silly not to base your team around one race.
     
  12. donhix1

    donhix1 New Member

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    Just a note on the Olympic time trial. Hamiliton and Julich were under both directors while Ekimov was under Bruyneel. Julich had his career reserected by Riis and Riis turned Hamilton into a team leader.
    It would appear Bruyneel is much more focused on one goal while Riis has a broader perspective and works on riders individual accomplishments and goals.
     
  13. tcklyde

    tcklyde New Member

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    Azevedo has finished 5th and 6th in the Tour. He got 4th on the L'Alp and a very respectable 10th on the flat TT last year. I think that if he wasn't working for LA and had USPS behind him, a podium spot would have been possible. I actually hope LA doesn't race this year so we can see what Azevedo can do when he's not working for Beloki or LA.

    Of ocurse with the blow ups of Mayo / Heras and Vino not racing and Ulle in bad form, a lot of top competitors were out of the running.
     
  14. musette

    musette New Member

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    Bruyneel excels in these areas, which he works on with LA:

    -- Identification of potential talent and attempting to recruit them onto USPS/DC. For this, look at how he targeted Popo and Paolo early on, and only this year managed to get them onto his team. He and LA also attempted to recruit Basso before, and they have recruited and nurtured current or former team leaders -- Levi Leipheimer, Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis (for certain events), Heras (doesn't count), etc. Bruyneel is very good at identifying talent and getting them onto the team.

    He recruited Azevedo, when everybody did not have high regards for the Ace's abilities relative to the departing Heras. Look how wonderfully Ace turned out. So, in each case (leaving aside Heras), Bruyneel identified the talent and developed them into riders that other teams were competing for. That's a different type of ability than dealing with more experienced riders who are past their first prime, or ridders who have to make the jump to the highest level. Bruyneel is identifying the "raw" talent more than Riis.

    -- Strategic brilliance of Bruyneel.

    While LA is a brilliant strategic, it is Bruyneel who mostly handles strategy. Consider how he assisted Heras to win the 03 Vuelta, when nobody thought Heras could catch Nozal. Consider how Bruyneel used Chechu and Triki was "baits" to go off on the mountain stages in 03 TdF, and distract other teams from attacking LA.

    Riis has never been DS to a winning Grand Tour effort. True, Bruyneel has LA, but just like a cyclist can't claim to be the best in any given year without winning a Grand Tour, so it's unclear somebody can be a brilliant DS without having won a Grand Tour (at least one, leaving aside seven total Grand Tours and six consecutive TdFs) at least once as DS. ;)

    -- Bruyneel is not afraid to take risks.

    Consider how VHP was dropped from the 04 TdF in faor of novice Benjamin Noval. Clearly the right choice because Noval is stronger than VHP in the mountains, and the time gains to be made by the team in the TTT were limited by the placements formula. Also a good choice because, at the time, it was unclear Azevedo would be a full substitute for Heras in the mountains and Noval would be more helpful in the low to mid mountains than VHP.

    Noval also really seems to care for LA, as evidenced by his distraught condition after he was dropped in the TTT.
     
  15. smilin'jon

    smilin'jon New Member

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    Riis, no doubt...look at results. Bruyneel has gotten results from Lance Armstrong and...well, that's about it. Riis has consistently gotten quality wins and high placings from multiple riders. Or, let's look at their respective racing careers. Riis wins again.
     
  16. tcklyde

    tcklyde New Member

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    Look, I think, given the spectacular motivation he pulls out of his riders, Riis is the better DS. But can I just say Vuelta 2002 and 2003? Bruyneel is more than just LA. I suspect ONCE (or what's left) is still smarting over the 2003 Vuelta. And this is not to mention many respectable one day race finishes. Bruyneel and Riis have different talents. Riis can make good riders great. And Bruyneel has a tremendous eye for talent. Hell, signing Azevedo deserves a medal as much as reminding Julich that he has legs.
     
  17. musette

    musette New Member

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    Bruyneel motivated LA to think about winning the TdF after LA's cancer. Bruyneel made LA believe that LA had a realistic chance of winning the TdF. Bruyneel aims big.

    Just like Bruyneel is now telling Popo Popo shouldn't ride the Giro (leaving aside Paolo's injury) and then try to do the TdF after getting fatigued. Bruyneel is teaching Popo how to properly prepare for the TdF, and is building Popo into a future TdF GC winner.

    Riis cannot be considered the best DS because he failed to recruit JU when JU was available. JU, in his autobiography, indicated he was not too happy Riis said he did not have enough money for JU and then somehow seemed to be able to come up with more money. If Riis is better than Bruyneel, he would have realized that, as much as improving Julich/Voight/Basso, etc. are helpful to people getting good TdF results, he did not have riders with the potential to ever be GC winner in the TdF. Clearly not in Julich. Maybe in T Hamilton -- that was Riis' only recruit who had the chance to win the GC in the TdF. So how useful is it to recruit a larger number of riders, each of whom he could improve, if none of them (except for TH) ever had a realistic chance of winning the TdF (Basso included)?

    Look at the team leaders or leading team members from other teams who were nurtured by Bruyneel/Demol from their younger years:

    -- Tom Boonen
    -- Levi Leipheimer
    -- [Tyler Hamilton]
    -- Floyd Landis

    Bruyneel aided Max van Heeswijk to at least 13 rated victories last year. Look at the 2004 Vuelta, when a less strong USPS group attended and Bruyneel was still able to extract good results and controlled the yellow jersey for much of the beginning of the race. Look at how even USPS "Team B" won the TTT. Look how many different USPS riders won races throughout 2004. Tony Cruz, Hincapie, S Devolder, F Landis and others also won races.
     
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