Building - glue recomendations please.

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by reply, Jul 5, 2003.

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  1. reply

    reply Guest

    Hi all,

    I've been researching recumbent for a while now and have decided that the only way I am going to get
    bunt is to mae something myself. I currently do a 13 mile each way commute on a mountain bike with
    all the pain that implies. After looking about I decided a trike was the way to go.

    I will be using 3 children's mountain bikes for most parts. My local second hand shop will sell me 2
    for £25 the pair so that's a good way there. I have a scaffolding pole (I know - heavy) that I will
    be using a length of for the boom. I plan to attach a rear triangle from one of the bikes into a
    suitably cut/shaped recess and mount the two front forks, via arms in a "conventional" cruciform
    arrangement. This will allow me to use ordinary front wheels.

    There are many compromises in there (to keep the price down) such as weight (I'd rather be heavy
    than un-reliable) and the same size back wheel will cause a less comfortable ride than a larger
    one but there you go. The idea is to see if I can get something that works and improve if it isn't
    good enough.

    Now - can anyone point me to a supplies for industrial strength glues that I can use. I understand
    that I will need a slow cure epoxy type but this is as much as I've been able to find.

    Recommendations on types and strengths would be appreciated.

    Thanks in advance

    Everso
     
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  2. PaPa

    PaPa New Member

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    Without knowing the parent materials being joined, i'd hesitate any recommendations. If i had to chose one... it'd be System Three's T-88 structural epoxy. A white sheet is available at there web site. I think Aircraft Spruce and Wicks carrys it among others. A lot of expermintal aircraft builders use it.... as do I.
     
  3. Jeff Wills

    Jeff Wills Guest

    PaPa <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > Without knowing the parent materials being joined, i'd hesitate any recommendations. If i had to
    > chose one... it'd be System Three's T-88 structural epoxy. A white sheet is available at there web
    > site. I think Aircraft Spruce and Wicks carrys it among others. A lot of expermintal aircraft
    > builders use it.... as do I.

    I know of a Tour Easy clone that was built entirely from scrap bikes and JB Weld. It recently was
    sidelined by a structural failure- after 13 years of use. YMMV.

    Jeff
     
  4. reply

    reply Guest

    Thank you both for your replies.

    I have been looking at J B weld and it did seem to be well loved buy all who used it so it was
    certainly on my list. I will however look up the T88 and see if I can do a comparison of them.

    Thank you.

    Everso

    [email protected] wrote:

    >Hi all,
    >
    >I've been researching recumbent for a while now and have decided that the only way I am going to
    >get bunt is to mae something myself. I currently do a 13 mile each way commute on a mountain bike
    >with all the pain that implies. After looking about I decided a trike was the way to go.
    >
    >I will be using 3 children's mountain bikes for most parts. My local second hand shop will sell me
    >2 for £25 the pair so that's a good way there. I have a scaffolding pole (I know - heavy) that I
    >will be using a length of for the boom. I plan to attach a rear triangle from one of the bikes into
    >a suitably cut/shaped recess and mount the two front forks, via arms in a "conventional" cruciform
    >arrangement. This will allow me to use ordinary front wheels.
    >
    >There are many compromises in there (to keep the price down) such as weight (I'd rather be heavy
    >than un-reliable) and the same size back wheel will cause a less comfortable ride than a larger
    >one but there you go. The idea is to see if I can get something that works and improve if it isn't
    >good enough.
    >
    >Now - can anyone point me to a supplies for industrial strength glues that I can use. I understand
    >that I will need a slow cure epoxy type but this is as much as I've been able to find.
    >
    >Recommendations on types and strengths would be appreciated.
    >
    >Thanks in advance
    >
    >Everso
     
  5. Jim Plaia

    Jim Plaia Guest

    I'd also hesitate to recommend without knowing more about the parent materials and the joint design.
    A few pieces of general advice, however, many of the structural epoxies have very poor toughness and
    impact loads on the joints could lead to them failing. I have the dubious pleasure of working with
    several adhesive like that at work. They're good to over 7000 psi but tend to shatter when impacted.

    Your surface preparation will have as much or more effect then the joint design and adhesive you
    choose. I've also had to test what happens when you don't get the surface clean. Cleaning with a
    good industrial solvent (preferrably not something toxic enough to make you regret it) together with
    some surface roughening should be okay.

    As I am a engineer dealing with these adhesives at work, I'm pre-disposed, but one thing I'd do is
    get on some website like Loctite's industrial products and find a few adhesives that match what you
    want to deal with (check the MSDSs to make sure you want to be using them at home) and do a general
    search on the web for those. I've found a lot of small industrial supply houses sell some of the
    better adhesives in small quantities.
     
  6. reply

    reply Guest

    Thanks for all the advice/watch outs/comments.

    I think it's going to be JB weld. T88 looks good and I like the idea of an epoxy that dries to form
    a slightly flexible joint but it's setting time of up to 24 hours is a bit long. I'm thinking that
    if I carry JB weld in my kit it's 20 minute cure time leaves me the option of making repairs on the
    road. This will mainly be a commuting to work machine and a joint could be fixed and left for the
    work day till time to drive home (slowly).

    I definitely take your point about joint preparation and do expect to spent a long time on it. The
    first joint will be a length of scaffold pipe suitably shaped to take the bottom bracket of one of
    the donor bikes. I'm also thinking of some sort of re-enforcing there as well. Maybe some heavy
    gauge sheet metal shaped go from the pipe and onto the bottom of the frame - what do you
    think/recomend.

    Impact resistance was also something I am worried about as this can/will lead to sudden failure of
    the frame - probably when I'm late for work and miles away from home. Is there anything I can do to
    help make the joint more impact proof? Maybe build it up with several layers of fiber glass after
    the joint has been made?

    Once again thank you everyone for you time and comments.

    Everso
     
  7. Rorschandt

    Rorschandt Guest

    [email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > Impact resistance was also something I am worried about as this can/will lead to sudden failure of
    > the frame - probably when I'm late for work and miles away from home. Is there anything I can do
    > to help make the joint more impact proof? Maybe build it up with several layers of fiber glass
    > after the joint has been made?
    >
    > Once again thank you everyone for you time and comments.
    >
    > Everso
    >

    Please have a look at my experimental trike and hopefully you will learn from my mistakes
    http://pictures.care2.com/view/1/767377690

    The mistake usually made when using epoxy is just using a big gob of the stuff and expecting it to
    hold up. Best is as a "gap filler", as much as possible like a lugged frame bike; wherein, instead
    of brazing, epoxy is used.

    The metal used was way too thick, and the weakest designed joint was where the rear wheel section
    connects to the main tube. I used Aeropoxy, and the only joint where it gave loose was the joint
    just mentioned. Otherwise a nifty machine, which has since been cannabilized for the components,
    etc. The epoxy isn't real good for "sheer forces".

    Happy trails, rorschandt
     
  8. reply

    reply Guest

    rorschandt <[email protected]> wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >
    >
    >> Impact resistance was also something I am worried about as this can/will lead to sudden failure
    >> of the frame - probably when I'm late for work and miles away from home. Is there anything I can
    >> do to help make the joint more impact proof? Maybe build it up with several layers of fiber glass
    >> after the joint has been made?
    >>
    >> Once again thank you everyone for you time and comments.
    >>
    >> Everso
    >>
    >

    Which set of pictures there please? I've had a look and can't see which joint you are talking about.

    It sounds like I will have to re-enforce the joints where there is any sheer forces, something I was
    seriously considering anyway.

    Everso

    >Please have a look at my experimental trike and hopefully you will learn from my mistakes
    >http://pictures.care2.com/view/1/767377690
    >
    >The mistake usually made when using epoxy is just using a big gob of the stuff and expecting it to
    >hold up. Best is as a "gap filler", as much as possible like a lugged frame bike; wherein, instead
    >of brazing, epoxy is used.
    >
    >The metal used was way too thick, and the weakest designed joint was where the rear wheel section
    >connects to the main tube. I used Aeropoxy, and the only joint where it gave loose was the joint
    >just mentioned. Otherwise a nifty machine, which has since been cannabilized for the components,
    >etc. The epoxy isn't real good for "sheer forces".
    >
    >Happy trails, rorschandt
     
  9. Tom Sherman

    Tom Sherman Guest

    rorschandt wrote:
    > ... The epoxy isn't real good for "sheer forces".

    What are "sheer forces"?

    Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
     
  10. Rorschandt

    Rorschandt Guest

    [email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > rorschandt <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >>
    >>
    >>> Impact resistance was also something I am worried about as this can/will lead to sudden failure
    >>> of the frame - probably when I'm late for work and miles away from home. Is there anything I can
    >>> do to help make the joint more impact proof? Maybe build it up with several layers of fiber
    >>> glass after the joint has been made?
    >>>
    >>> Once again thank you everyone for you time and comments.
    >>>
    >>> Everso
    >>>
    >>
    >
    > Which set of pictures there please? I've had a look and can't see which joint you are
    > talking about.

    Specifically http://pictures.care2.com/view/2/863844227 The point where the rear stays connect was a
    "sheer" joint, and in the end the only thing holding it was the stainless steel bolts. I COULD have
    adapted it to rear suspension...(^:
     
  11. reply

    reply Guest

    mmm - not looking good for my application. It;s going to need a re-enforcing bat there. Who knows,
    maybe even with u clamps.

    Everso

    rorschandt <[email protected]> wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> rorschandt <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> Impact resistance was also something I am worried about as this can/will lead to sudden failure
    >>>> of the frame - probably when I'm late for work and miles away from home. Is there anything I
    >>>> can do to help make the joint more impact proof? Maybe build it up with several layers of fiber
    >>>> glass after the joint has been made?
    >>>>
    >>>> Once again thank you everyone for you time and comments.
    >>>>
    >>>> Everso
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>
    >> Which set of pictures there please? I've had a look and can't see which joint you are
    >> talking about.
    >
    >Specifically http://pictures.care2.com/view/2/863844227 The point where the rear stays connect was
    >a "sheer" joint, and in the end the only thing holding it was the stainless steel bolts. I COULD
    >have adapted it to rear suspension...(^:
     
  12. One caution about buying epoxy resin: It has a limited shelf life. After 6 months to one year,
    depending on its type and storage temperature, it will deteriorate. After one to two years, it may
    not harden at all. Even if older resin does harden, this doesn't indicate that the finished product
    will be as strong or last as long as that made from fresher resin. Very hot or freezing temperatures
    will hasten its decline. Understand that what I've said applies to liquid resin, not to that which
    has been catalyzed and hardened. Good epoxy products can last for decades, if they aren't smashed up
    or left out in the sunlight for long periods.

    Buying from a local store that has only a small and seldom sold supply of epoxy, is the most
    likely way to get an old and useless batch of it. Buy from an industrial supply dealer that
    sells a lot of it to professionals. Such a business should be able and willing to tell you the
    exact date it was manufactured and assure you that if any quality problems exist, that it would
    be replaced or a refund given.

    There are numerous types of epoxy resin and each region of the world has its own brands. A
    professional supplier could advise you of the best variety for your purposes. In the U.S., the
    W.E.S.T. system of epoxy, distributed by the Gougeon Bros., is well-regarded for penetrating
    and coating wood. Other types are better suited for bonding other materials and for use with
    fiberglass reinforcing cloth. Still others are formulated for thin surface coatings, in
    varnish-like applications. I used a lot of D.D. Lak, from Denmark, in past years, as an epoxy
    coating for wood-veneer boats. With a year each of college Swedish and Norwegian, I could
    translate the instructions. My impression is that the quality of such products from England and
    Scandinavia is better than those from the U.S. and the distributors there take more care with
    their quality control in shipping and storage. I've bought thin marine plywood from England,
    that was made with glue so good, that the layers couldn't be separated, even after an hour in a
    pressure cooker.

    Steve McDonald
     
  13. Jim Plaia

    Jim Plaia Guest

    they are forces encountered when the assembler is distracted by a set of pantyhose walking by. Shear
    forces are those when the joint is loaded parallel to the bondline as opposed to tensile forces
    which are perpendicular.

    Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > rorschandt wrote:
    > > ... The epoxy isn't real good for "sheer forces".
    >
    > What are "sheer forces"?
    >
    > Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
     
  14. Rorschandt

    Rorschandt Guest

    Tom Sherman <[email protected]> nitpicked in news:[email protected]:

    >
    > rorschandt wrote:
    >> ... The epoxy isn't real good for "sheer forces".
    >
    > What are "sheer forces"?
    >
    > Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

    Can't I be human for even a moment? SHEAR, then.
     
  15. Rorschandt

    Rorschandt Guest

    [email protected] (Jim Plaia) wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > they are forces encountered when the assembler is distracted by a set of pantyhose walking by.

    Actually pantyhose don't do it for me. Now those sheer see-thru panties are um, uh uuhhh... Q^:

    > Shear forces are those when the joint is loaded parallel to the bondline as opposed to tensile
    > forces which are perpendicular.
    >

    correct.
     
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