Buncha Carbon Fiber Suckers....
- Thread starter IronDonut
- Start date
IronDonut said:I'm thinking that this carbon fiber frame trend is the latest in a long series of consumer sucker plays.
I hope you dont ride a Carbon fork... then.... or a Carbon Seatpost
On the road bike side of the house development is near stagnant. Sure there have been some refinements here and there wheels have gotten better, they added a couple of cogs to the rear cluster but really since Shimano brought STI shifting out in the early 90s there really hasn't been a significant roadie development. In fact if you hung those new light wheels on say an original decade+ old Litespeed or Merlin Ti frame you would realise no better or worse results than if you had the latest unobtanium bling bling frame of the day.
you forgot... also of much importance in the last 15 years:
*ERGO shifting- in many people opinion... its much more user-friendly then STI (ie. better Ergo-nomics
*Duel-pivot Break Calipers- shimano + Campy
*saddles that are MUCH more friendly to "Mr. Happy"
Oh BTW; aluminum sucks too.
Ti for life. Suckers.
These last two statements... I do however agree with.
IronDonut said:
If you beat your tool around.... then I would not suggest Carbon- ANYTHING.
If you are over 200 pounds.... I do not suggest Carbon(frames, seatposts, seat-rails, rims).
Carbon is not really any more lighter then Aluminum... but people seem not to have a problem w/buying Aluminum
, it STiff , light, non-corrosive ---- however, every peeble in the road- YOU FEEL No doubt , Ti. is sweet..... when its done right( Ibis, Moots, Seven, *Lightspeed/Merlin in there hay-day*, and heck- even a Mongoose- as long as the rider is under 190lbs
"Unlike metal which is strong in all directions carbon fiber is only strong in it's design plane." ........ well then, why not go with a real Carbon frame and get a C-40 or C50... that takes that very fact into consideration, and makes each tubing directional specific- thus stress/strain/torque directional forces onto each tubing under acceleration + breaking + cornering, etc. is MINIMIZED.
"In engineering there is always a tradeoff. If you get something you have to give back something else. No free lunches."
Your right... there are several tradeoffs engineers make, and also in considering which bike to buy(price, weight, durability, shock-absorption(higher.. the better, ie. Carbon or Ti. .... even Steel is very good) , looks, etc. Everyone has there own price-point, will it be Huffy.... or Ibis
Just because you have had bad luck/experience with Carbon frames in the past.... doesn't mean that "Joe-Smuckateli" who is 160 lbs . ... and goes out to buy his Carbon Corima frame-set ..... and rides it 5K+ miles per year... that its only going to last him 3 yrs. If you take care of your equipment.. it will take care of you in the end.
I weight 90+ kg and I'm riding LOOK carbon frame more than 4 years and so far I had no problem with it. I also have one older AL ano one steel frame. From my experiences I will buy new steel frame for my secondary bike this winter and I will buy again carbon fibre frame to my racing bike.
I have never heard, that anybody had any problems with carbon frames, except those, who have Trek frames. Many people are buying Trek frames, because Lance rides it. In most cases, they say that the frame is great. But there are several people, that have the same experiences as IronDonut. They get new frame every year, because it breakes down. But as I wrote before - I have never heard of any other carbon frame, with similar problems.
I'm happy owner of LOOK carbon frame and I will buy another one in several years.
I have never heard, that anybody had any problems with carbon frames, except those, who have Trek frames. Many people are buying Trek frames, because Lance rides it. In most cases, they say that the frame is great. But there are several people, that have the same experiences as IronDonut. They get new frame every year, because it breakes down. But as I wrote before - I have never heard of any other carbon frame, with similar problems.
I'm happy owner of LOOK carbon frame and I will buy another one in several years.
IronDonut said:
You were going OK for awhile until I read that Al sucks.
You may be right about carbon being a new gimmick to sell more bikes (as going from 5 - 10 on the rear cluster has over the last 20 years. Its hard to believe that you need 10 on the back when most racers are still only using 2 chain rings) but there's nothing wrong with metal bikes.
Al can be made rigid or flexy, lighter than any other frame or solid. If it starts to sag it can be retempered.
Then again the same can be said for steel, or Ti.
People buy what the pros ride and what they get *sold* by the marketting department.
It's statements like this that are making people question your motives for this rant. You're just too angry to not have an ulterior motive. I have a feeling there's something you're not telling us.IronDonut said:
When you start firing things like "idiot" the second someone questions you, it's either because you're worried that you'll get a question you weren't prepared for, or you don't think people should be allowed to disagree with you.
There are probably people on this forum who have forgotten more about bikes than you may ever know. They're not all going to agree with everything you say. Grow a pair and deal with it like an adult.
Whispered only to IronDonut: It was a sarcasm. For the record it is well documented I am an asshole, I suppose the terms are interchangeable though.IronDonut said:
IronDonut said:
Ahhhh N=1 the perfect example of a definitive study. Funny how in your first post you mention buying a Ti bike after owning your fisher for over 2 years with no mention of these 3 extreme failures, guess it wasn't pertinent at the time
. Sorry but I stand by my statement if you really did ever have a problem at this point you have no credibility because of the tone and exaggeration of your posts. Carbon Fiber has pros/cons and design constraints same as all the other materials you mention. There is nothing inherently bad with it...
Actually, for the record I find your posts quite entertaining. I pick up a lot of useful tidbits of information on these forums, and many of them come from you.wilmar13 said:
For now I've decided to go out and break my OCLV mtn bike. Never did like the color, so I'm figuring that if I can break it, I'll get a shot at a better color on the warranty replacement.
I am just one of the many students of the forums as well... glad somebody gets my sense of humor though.cydewaze said:
Just remember unless you happen to be IronDonut or any of his buddies who are capable of repeatedly snapping them just by riding along, you will want to try some of the more well established ways of breaking frames you already mentioned such as hitting a tree, telephone pole, curb, etc., or entering the garage with the bike on your roof rack, cleaning with a blow torch, running it over with your car, jumping with your motocross buddies, drilling some weight saving holes in the tubing... feel free to be creative with this (I am afraid you will have to be if you really want it to break).cydewaze said:For now I've decided to go out and break my OCLV mtn bike. Never did like the color, so I'm figuring that if I can break it, I'll get a shot at a better color on the warranty replacement.
I vote for the roof rack option. A free frame will never be worth doing a face plant into a pile of twisted metal.wilmar13 said:
Okay, so you had two carbon frame models fail and one case of an aircraft part failing. Overwhelming empirical evidence you have there. I guess we should write off composites all together based on you and your friends’ experience with two bikes… oh and one plane? You post reviews of Fishers vs. Moots – how many people do you think own Fishers vs. Moots? How many cases of failures in any industry do you think I can dig up that can be attributed to metal fatigue/failure? You demonstrate isolated cases, not an epidemic. I like carbon, but maybe you have some valid points. I don’t know. But c’mon, you’ve got to bring better evidence to the table if you’re going to make your point by calling other people idiots.IronDonut said:
You want to see another catastrophic carbon fiber failure? See this thread and check out the pics on page 2. But you know what? It's once again an isolated case. I’d still buy those wheels for my motorcycle, if I could only afford them.
Don't care much about lab tests. In the real world with my bunch of riding pals we've had a 100% Trek and Fisher failure rate. Both alum and carbon. I did talk to one guy this weekend that broke a Litespeed Ti hard tail. I think the Tsali model? Can't remember exactly. Any material can fail but alum and carbon seem to fail a lot more than Ti and steel.
Further; I just talked to a girl who had a 3 day old Trek Fuel 100. After 3 days the abrasion from one of the cables rubbing on the frame dug a groove into the carbon material. 3 days old. I'm looking for a little more durability than that. It's great if you are in the business of selling bikes. Who wants to ride a beat up looking grooved up bike? But if you spend some money and you want your bike to perform and look great for the long haul carbon and alum aren't the best suited materials.
Further; I just talked to a girl who had a 3 day old Trek Fuel 100. After 3 days the abrasion from one of the cables rubbing on the frame dug a groove into the carbon material. 3 days old. I'm looking for a little more durability than that. It's great if you are in the business of selling bikes. Who wants to ride a beat up looking grooved up bike? But if you spend some money and you want your bike to perform and look great for the long haul carbon and alum aren't the best suited materials.
Catabolic_Jones said:
I am going to be blunt here: I believe you are lying.IronDonut said:
Being a mechanical engineer and understanding failure statistics (failure probability distribution) it is impossible to correlate that a large team like USPS could ride so many races throughout 6-1/2 seasons and not have a very, very large number of catastrophic failures of the same equipment in which your pals have experienced a 100% failure rate. Even if USPS gave the riders new bikes for every single day!
I repeat: I believe you are lying.
It might be a Trek thing... The majority of the failures were Fishers and Treks.
With the carbon itself... it's fragile. I'll give you a perfect example. I was running a Thompson aluminum seatpost in my Fisher Sugar 2 for a good year. I lightened it up some with an Easton carbon fiber seatpost. After maybe two weeks? Maybe 3 of riding the post broke in two where it joined the frame. Here is the problem the sharp edge of the alum cut though the carbon post until it broke in two.
The solution was to run a dremel tool around the outside of the seat tube to take the sharp edge off of tube.
Point is metal was strong enough to deal with that imperfection carbon wasn't. Further when the carbon seatpost broke it did so in a catastrophic manner. It cracked and then instantly lost all of it's strength.
There is also the issue of carbons inability to deal with lubricants and solvents and in some cases moisture...
With the carbon itself... it's fragile. I'll give you a perfect example. I was running a Thompson aluminum seatpost in my Fisher Sugar 2 for a good year. I lightened it up some with an Easton carbon fiber seatpost. After maybe two weeks? Maybe 3 of riding the post broke in two where it joined the frame. Here is the problem the sharp edge of the alum cut though the carbon post until it broke in two.
The solution was to run a dremel tool around the outside of the seat tube to take the sharp edge off of tube.
Point is metal was strong enough to deal with that imperfection carbon wasn't. Further when the carbon seatpost broke it did so in a catastrophic manner. It cracked and then instantly lost all of it's strength.
There is also the issue of carbons inability to deal with lubricants and solvents and in some cases moisture...
Blasp said:
These are mountain bikes and mountain bike racers jackass. None of the failures I've mention were with road bikes. Fisher Sugars and Trek OCLV mountain bikes.
All of the aformentioned mountain bike racers ride Litespeed and Lemond road bikes with zero failures. I don't have any direct exprience with the OCLV road bikes.
However, remember that fairly slow speed crash that Armstrong had when his handlebar hooked the bag while he was climbing? That pansy ass crash broke his seat stay.
All of the aformentioned mountain bike racers ride Litespeed and Lemond road bikes with zero failures. I don't have any direct exprience with the OCLV road bikes.
However, remember that fairly slow speed crash that Armstrong had when his handlebar hooked the bag while he was climbing? That pansy ass crash broke his seat stay.
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