Burning toes

[BiggMakk]

Greetings,
I researched this issue on the forum but didn't find anything similar. I'm having horrible buring toe pains on both feet. My toes are not rubbing in anyway and the only other pain is an achey right middle toe (not burning). The toe pain is mainly under my nails and then radiates to the whole toe. I looked at my toes carefully and there's no visible damage and after a few hours off the bike, the pain is completely gone. I get this pain on rides over two hours. (I used to use arch supports but these made the outside of my feet hurt too in addition to the burning; since removing them, it's only the burning toes).

My shoes are Sidi Mega and my cleats Look Keo. I've had a professional fitting where my cleats were set far back so the center of my foot is over the spindle. I've fiddled with the saddle position: forward, backward, up, down. No relief.

I'm wondering if I need to change my shoes. May be the leather uppers on my shoes are too soft allowing my foot to wiggle to much. That's the only solution can come up with. Has anyone else has such problems and found solutions they can tolerate? Thanks.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I have delt with a neuroma in my right foot for years now and I don't know if you experiencing the same thing. It doesn't sound quite like the same thing, but a neuroma (inflammed nerve) can occur in that area between the middle toes.

If it is a neuroma you do not want a tighter toe box because that will make it worse. I use a Specialized shoe with a rachet system that I can tighten at the top and keep the toe box a bit more loose. Also check all your other shoes to make sure you are wearing the correct size.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Here is a bit more information, but hopefully you don't have a neuroma.

Link

 

[tiggere]

I noticed when I didn't have my shoes tight enough I got a very warm sensation...I assumed it was from the pedaling motion pushing my foot into the toe of the shoe and cutting off the blood supply or covering the front vent with "foot"...


Once I got used to how tight my shoes needed to be the warm sensation quit...

Edited to add: tight enough meaning the straps on the shoes...not that I had the wrong size...

 

[BiggMakk]

Yikes. Sounds bad. My toes problems are just on the big toes. It's almost like my pushing down is causing pressure to radiate up to my toenails. Since it's both feet, I think it's either the shoe shape or the soft leather has stretched so much that it's no longer supportive.

 

[BiggMakk]

I noticed when I didn't have my shoes tight enough I got a very warm sensation...I assumed it was from the pedaling motion pushing my foot into the toe of the shoe and cutting off the blood supply or covering the front vent with "foot"...


Once I got used to how tight my shoes needed to be the warm sensation quit...

Edited to add: tight enough meaning the straps on the shoes...not that I had the wrong size...

Interesting thought. My riding friend wears the same shoes as me. In his opinion his toes burn the same way but only during warm weather. I'll try tightening the straps but I can't make them too tight because that leads to other problems. I have flat, wide, thin feet - like a duck. I should be have been a swimmer instead of a cyclist.

 

[kopride]

Interesting thought. My riding friend wears the same shoes as me. In his opinion his toes burn the same way but only during warm weather. I'll try tightening the straps but I can't make them too tight because that leads to other problems. I have flat, wide, thin feet - like a duck. I should be have been a swimmer instead of a cyclist.

Another resident of Bedrock. I have the same kind of feet, same shoes and pedals. 9 and 1/2 EEEE. The real problem with feet like ours is that the ball of the feet doesn't occur at the normal spot within the shoes, the ball is a little closer to the front of the shoe than with normal feet, particularly if your toes are shorter than normal.

First step, drop your seat a few millimeters, so you are not digging and can keep your heels down. Keeping your heels down, should place less pressure on your toes. Mark your seatpost with your original position so you have a baseline.

Next, find the ball of your feet within your shoe. For the reasons stated above, it is probably not in the normal spot. "I've had a professional fitting where my cleats were set far back so the center of my foot is over the spindle. " This surprises me because my cleats are set almost as far forward as possible and the cleat is pushed as far inward towards the crank as possible (otherwise I rub the crank b/c my feet are so wide. So my guess is that the professional fitter set the cleats in a position that would be right with someone with normal feet. But because your ball is forward of the normal position, the cleat is set almost below the arch.

Next, position the cleat below the "true" ball of your feet. (It might be a bit different between right and left b/c most people have a half size differential)Personally, I like the cleat to be directly below the ball of my feet --not below the ball of a theoretical person with anatomically correct feet. And then jump on the trainer and make minor adjustments until it is as comfortable as possible. If you are worried about having dropped a few bucks on the professional fitting, just mark the cleat well on the bottom so you can go back to that setting if you can't find something more comfortable.

Finally, wear thin nylon cycling socks as opposed to cotton. It won't bunch up in the front and cause more pressure. Sure, you're kids will mock you iof you show up wearing them with merril camp shoes at their lacrosse game, but your comfort comes first.

It took me years to find the correct shoes, pedals, and settings. And I have the same problem with MX and ski boots. IMO, the Sidi Mega are the best shoes out there for wide feet. Carnacs run wide as well. You might want to experiment with different pedal systems, but the Look Keo work for me on the road with the Sidis. I like Time MTB pedals and if you have the $$, you might want to try a wide MTB shoe and the Time on your road bike. A bit heavier than the Sidi/Keo set up but the shoes and pedals definitely allow a wider range of comfort. I have mt bike pedals mounted on my road bike down the shore and they are great. And b/c I left my Keos on a rental bike last week, I am riding with the time Mtb pedals now with no problem.

 

[swampy1970]

Another resident of Bedrock. I have the same kind of feet, same shoes and pedals. 9 and 1/2 EEEE. The real problem with feet like ours is that the ball of the feet doesn't occur at the normal spot within the shoes, the ball is a little closer to the front of the shoe than with normal feet, particularly if your toes are shorter than normal.

First step, drop your seat a few millimeters, so you are not digging and can keep your heels down. Keeping your heels down, should place less pressure on your toes. Mark your seatpost with your original position so you have a baseline.

Next, find the ball of your feet within your shoe. For the reasons stated above, it is probably not in the normal spot. "I've had a professional fitting where my cleats were set far back so the center of my foot is over the spindle. " This surprises me because my cleats are set almost as far forward as possible and the cleat is pushed as far inward towards the crank as possible (otherwise I rub the crank b/c my feet are so wide. So my guess is that the professional fitter set the cleats in a position that would be right with someone with normal feet. But because your ball is forward of the normal position, the cleat is set almost below the arch.

Next, position the cleat below the "true" ball of your feet. (It might be a bit different between right and left b/c most people have a half size differential)Personally, I like the cleat to be directly below the ball of my feet --not below the ball of a theoretical person with anatomically correct feet. And then jump on the trainer and make minor adjustments until it is as comfortable as possible. If you are worried about having dropped a few bucks on the professional fitting, just mark the cleat well on the bottom so you can go back to that setting if you can't find something more comfortable.

Finally, wear thin nylon cycling socks as opposed to cotton. It won't bunch up in the front and cause more pressure. Sure, you're kids will mock you iof you show up wearing them with merril camp shoes at their lacrosse game, but your comfort comes first.

It took me years to find the correct shoes, pedals, and settings. And I have the same problem with MX and ski boots. IMO, the Sidi Mega are the best shoes out there for wide feet. Carnacs run wide as well. You might want to experiment with different pedal systems, but the Look Keo work for me on the road with the Sidis. I like Time MTB pedals and if you have the $$, you might want to try a wide MTB shoe and the Time on your road bike. A bit heavier than the Sidi/Keo set up but the shoes and pedals definitely allow a wider range of comfort. I have mt bike pedals mounted on my road bike down the shore and they are great. And b/c I left my Keos on a rental bike last week, I am riding with the time Mtb pedals now with no problem.

I have wide feet and ever since I bought the Specialized shoes with the correct "body geometry" insoles and shims I've had no problems - even on 10+ hour rides in the high mountains...

Now if Specialized only made body geometry shorts to go with their saddles too... I think I'll go take a look and see if they do.

 

[kopride]

I have wide feet and ever since I bought the Specialized shoes with the correct "body geometry" insoles and shims I've had no problems - even on 10+ hour rides in the high mountains...

Now if Specialized only made body geometry shorts to go with their saddles too... I think I'll go take a look and see if they do.

I have heard that Specialized has a few wider sized models as well. Twenty years ago, there was nothing out there except for Carnacs, which were really a D width. I used to just size up a whole size, which was not a great solution. Now there are more options for us flipper types. The OP clearly has shoes that will work for wide feet (As I said, I am a EEEE and have the same pair). Shims are more intersting because my shoe used to rub against the crank, my foot is so wide. Is it a shim for the cleat or inside the shoe? When I am ready for a new pair, I will definitely look at the Specialized.

For now, the Sidis are the best shoe that I have ever worn. Now, if only ski boot manufactures would start making wider boots.

 

[BiggMakk]

Another resident of Bedrock. I have the same kind of feet, same shoes and pedals. 9 and 1/2 EEEE. The real problem with feet like ours is that the ball of the feet doesn't occur at the normal spot within the shoes, the ball is a little closer to the front of the shoe than with normal feet, particularly if your toes are shorter than normal.

First step, drop your seat a few millimeters, so you are not digging and can keep your heels down. Keeping your heels down, should place less pressure on your toes. Mark your seatpost with your original position so you have a baseline.

Next, find the ball of your feet within your shoe. For the reasons stated above, it is probably not in the normal spot. "I've had a professional fitting where my cleats were set far back so the center of my foot is over the spindle. " This surprises me because my cleats are set almost as far forward as possible and the cleat is pushed as far inward towards the crank as possible (otherwise I rub the crank b/c my feet are so wide. So my guess is that the professional fitter set the cleats in a position that would be right with someone with normal feet. But because your ball is forward of the normal position, the cleat is set almost below the arch.

Next, position the cleat below the "true" ball of your feet. (It might be a bit different between right and left b/c most people have a half size differential)Personally, I like the cleat to be directly below the ball of my feet --not below the ball of a theoretical person with anatomically correct feet. And then jump on the trainer and make minor adjustments until it is as comfortable as possible. If you are worried about having dropped a few bucks on the professional fitting, just mark the cleat well on the bottom so you can go back to that setting if you can't find something more comfortable.

Finally, wear thin nylon cycling socks as opposed to cotton. It won't bunch up in the front and cause more pressure. Sure, you're kids will mock you iof you show up wearing them with merril camp shoes at their lacrosse game, but your comfort comes first.

It took me years to find the correct shoes, pedals, and settings. And I have the same problem with MX and ski boots. IMO, the Sidi Mega are the best shoes out there for wide feet. Carnacs run wide as well. You might want to experiment with different pedal systems, but the Look Keo work for me on the road with the Sidis. I like Time MTB pedals and if you have the $$, you might want to try a wide MTB shoe and the Time on your road bike. A bit heavier than the Sidi/Keo set up but the shoes and pedals definitely allow a wider range of comfort. I have mt bike pedals mounted on my road bike down the shore and they are great. And b/c I left my Keos on a rental bike last week, I am riding with the time Mtb pedals now with no problem.

You described my feet perfectly including my short toes. I did drop the seat yesterday by about 5mm. I didn't notice much of a difference. I will drop it some more and will play with the cleats per your suggestion.

I hope this will help resolve it because having this pain is a bummer. I've trained all summer for my monthly century rides. During my last century ride I felt strong and yet the only pain I felt was my toes. Instead of enjoying the ride, I could only focus on my toes.

Thanks,

 

[Felt_Rider]

I have heard that Specialized has a few wider sized models as well. Twenty years ago, there was nothing out there except for Carnacs, which were really a D width. I used to just size up a whole size, which was not a great solution. Now there are more options for us flipper types. The OP clearly has shoes that will work for wide feet (As I said, I am a EEEE and have the same pair). Shims are more intersting because my shoe used to rub against the crank, my foot is so wide. Is it a shim for the cleat or inside the shoe? When I am ready for a new pair, I will definitely look at the Specialized.

For now, the Sidis are the best shoe that I have ever worn. Now, if only ski boot manufactures would start making wider boots.

Specialized is what I use as well.

Before I started cycling I was only into hiking and was dealing with the neuroma. The pain was so bad that I could barely walk after hiking. I ended up getting a series of treatment from a podiatrist using a chemical sclerosis (alcohol injection just above the nerve between the toes) which numbed the pain sensor to the brain and causing the inflammation to reduce. Not a pleasant experience, but it has worked for a number of years. I get a mild burning pain if the ride is longer than 70 miles. It may be about time to go back and get another series of shots.

I had a friend get her nerve surgically removed and she was limping for months and said it was the most painful recovery she ever endured.

 

[kopride]

I ended up getting a series of treatment from a podiatrist using a chemical sclerosis (alcohol injection just above the nerve between the toes) which numbed the pain sensor to the brain and causing the inflammation to reduce. Not a pleasant experience, but it has worked for a number of years. I get a mild burning pain if the ride is longer than 70 miles. It may be about time to go back and get another series of shots.

I had a friend get her nerve surgically removed and she was limping for months and said it was the most painful recovery she ever endured.

Felt,

First, I hope that you are not still visuallizing Ricco, and that there is more than alchohol being injected. Maybe the latest EPO formulation is really what is being injected?

Second, I am not a doctor, but I get to play one every time I cross examine these doctors in PI cases. So I have to do the latest research on PUBMed to get ready. The general consensus on neuromas seems to be let them alone as long as you can, then treat them conservatively with injections, and that the surgery is a last resort without a great outcome. And yes, you would be surprised how many "post traumatic" neuroma cases that I have to defend. My favorites are when the neuroma surgery is unsuccesful and they then claim CRPS, the new name for RSD. This is where I see the multimillion dollar injury claim arising from a stubbed toe. I would play with shoes and cleats for a long time before I start to meet with surgeons. Not that good doctors can't get you better, but finding the right doctor who comes up with the right diagnoses in foot and ankle cases can be a grand quest.

 

[kopride]

Before I started cycling I was only into hiking and was dealing with the neuroma. The pain was so bad that I could barely walk after hiking. I ended up getting a series of treatment from a podiatrist using a chemical sclerosis (alcohol injection just above the nerve between the toes) which numbed the pain sensor to the brain and causing the inflammation to reduce. Not a pleasant experience, but it has worked for a number of years. I get a mild burning pain if the ride is longer than 70 miles. It may be about time to go back and get another series of shots.

I had a friend get her nerve surgically removed and she was limping for months and said it was the most painful recovery she ever endured.

Here is an article on cycling related biomechanics and injuries. It does mention neuromas as being a cause of pain and discusses cleat placement and other issues.

 

[BiggMakk]

I may have fixed most of my problems! Yes I dropped my seat a full 1cm and that helped but my right smaller toes were still taking a beating. Then I took a closer look at my cleats. I noticed that the right cleat one was set very much to the outside compared to the more inside placement of my left cleat.

Now with the lower seat and the adjusted cleat my problems feel like they are 85% solved. Only 4 hours plus rides will tell.

Lesson: The proper seat height should allow the foot to be parallel to ground so the pressure on all parts of the foot stays constant. Cleat positions are not just forward and back or angled inward or outward, it's also side to side to consider.

 

[tiggere]

did you not get fit for your bike? If not I would head straight for the nearest one that will do a proper fitting...if your having to move your seat and clips and you did get fitted I would look for a different LBS to do a fitting...

 

[kopride]

I noticed that the right cleat one was set very much to the outside compared to the more inside placement of my left cleat.

Now with the lower seat and the adjusted cleat my problems feel like they are 85% solved. Only 4 hours plus rides will tell.

Lesson: The proper seat height should allow the foot to be parallel to ground so the pressure on all parts of the foot stays constant. Cleat positions are not just forward and back or angled inward or outward, it's also side to side to consider.

Yes, that's a big issue for us guys with Flintstone feet. If your cleat is set to the outside, you can rub on the crank with the inside of your shoe, so you naturally shift them rearward (or forward)towards a thinner part of the shoe to prevent rubbing-then you are off the ball. My cleats are set as far inward as possible, and pretty far forward given my short toes. In the past, I have had shoes (Time Criterium) that did not even allow me to set my cleats as far inward as they needed to be, and was looking to see if I could find shims to do it Good luck, that article that I attached is actually pretty good in setting initial seat height paramaters. Pro fitting is great, but like anything it depends upon the skills of the fitter in using the available fit kits, and basic knowledge of the anatomay of your particular foot. Ultimately, starting at a good baseline fit and then making micro adjustments on and off the trainer until you get it right is the best solution to the problem of fit.

Interestingly, the orthopod article (2007) discusses the fact that the newer super stiff soles aggravate forefoot pain, particularly carbon fiber soles since it is stiffer than plastic or the old traditional wood. Stiff is good, but super stiff might not be the best.