Bush or Kerry or ???



zapper

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Mar 11, 2004
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Originally posted by Fixey
What court where these "Criminals" convicted Zapper? The American government seems to have forgot about that innocent till proven quilty thing lately. BTW the family of the American who had his head sawn off had to take legal action against the American Military for illegaly detaining him. They have been qouted on CNN as blameing the US military for his death.

You call us Arogant, but you people are really pathetic...You call Babaars post Arogant??? Not at all, he is probably like most of us Americans..At least like 99% that I know...We grow tired of your insane scrutiny and one sided coverage and point of view. Really interesting that Limerickman in particular, takes such interest in our country...I'm amused!

Fixey, fair question as always from you thus far..I think I've tried to be honest and uprfront with you and the rest of the anti-bush/american clan... But if you must, ok..But because Babaar or I do not give in to your point of view..we are arrogant at the very least...I thought we were all adults here but apparently, you people come into a forum called "bloody soapbox" then whine about how those of us who have another point of view, express ourselves.. TYPICAL OF THE REAL WORLD...

Court? Uh....What court you ask?..Well, let's see..When you are being fired upon and you go in and people surrender and have weapons in their possession...Now we must take them to court?

I see it now, the war of the future..."Pardon me mr./ms Soldier/enemy combatant person, instead of shooting you, I would like to invite you to a trial and if you can't afford an attorney, one will be provided for you....PLEASE!

As far as Mr. Bergs death, lets make one thing clear! President Bush was not hiding behind those masks...Bin Laden's associates were...THEY WERE TO BLAME AND NO ONE ELSE!!!!!

As far as the family, THEY HAVE A RIGHT to blame whomever they want! I will not comment on anything his family does...They have to deal with the loss however they feel comfortable.
 

limerickman

Moderator
Jan 5, 2004
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Originally posted by Babbar
Antagonizing the UN and the EU, who either hate America or are insanely jealous of our wealth and power? Who gives a rat's patoot about a bunch of third-world never-wases and a European Continent filled with has-beens like Germany and France who are jealous of our position in the world.

The economy is booming, unemployment is lower today than it was in the 1970's, 1980's, or 1990's. Even the much maligned manufacturing segment is taking off. In case you haven't noticed, the market is above 10,000 and the NASDAQ is also up, rebounding from the tech-bubble bursting in the late 1990's, the recession that started under Clinton's policies, and 9-11. Were not for the tax cuts, Clinton's recession would be continuing today.

The dollar was intentionally depressed to make U.S. goods cheaper on foreign markets, making them more appealing and easier to sell. No big deal.

In fact, none of your charges are anything worth bothering about. Bin Laden and Omar are non-issues. Democracy cannot be built in a day so your charges about Afghanistan and Iraq are simple-minded at best.

The intelligence about WMD was correct. 100% correct. In case you have had your head stuck in the sand, and from your wild pronouncements and yammering, it is obvious you have, check out some of the reporting by Syrians and Israelis that know exactly where Saddam's biological and chemical WMDs are buried in Syria.

All in all, limerickman, your response teeters between the pathetic and the laughable.

Limerickman : Ah, our cold warrior friend is back on line.
First of all, Barbbar, you only have to push the submit reply button once – not twice !
The same reply has been posted TWICE (on pages 5 & 6 of this thread).
I know you older folk living in the Nixon era ain’t used to technology, but believe me it works.
You only have to submit your reply once – for it to be published.

let’s now look at the latest set of exaggerations, which you have posted.
You contend that your economy is performing well.
Statistical evidence contradicts your opinion that your economy is in fact in good shape.
Let me refer you to the Economist March 2004 : “the US economy is in a perilous
state at present. We feel that the policy of tax cuts is not the solution to the current
woes of the US economy. Tax cuts are normally the fallback position when other measures taken to stimulate an economy do not work.
Aligning tax cuts with a deliberate policy of devaluing the dollar is a very risky move.
It is obvious that this government feel that they can boost their economy by trying to generate more service sector spending.
However, this only works when job security and job creation forecasts give people the comfort to spend willingly. This is not the case at present.
The rate of job loss in the US economy is very high – particularly in the IT sector where large amounts of jobs have been transferred to lower cost countries such as
India and South East Asia” Hans Mettling : OECD Official.

You quote that the stockmarket is above 10,000.
The Dow Jones has indeed gone above 10,000 points (as of today) for the first time in a long time.
The NasDaq is currently trading in the low 1,900’s – a whopping 3,000 lower than it’s all time high.
You see Barbbar, markets move up and down : the Dow Jones has been seriously devalued against it’s value in the late 1990’s.
In cumulative terms, the Dow Jones, in value terms, is 30% lower in value for the period 2000-20004, compared to 1996-2000.
Of the 1400 days or so of the Clinton Presidency, the Dow Jones index exceeded the 10,000 point mark for 1125 days.
The Bush Presidency the Dow Jones index has only exceeded the 10,000 point limit for – wait for it – 321 days !
Throw in on top of that, the current US budget deficit : in 2000, the USA had a surplus of $200 billion.
The latest data shows the US deficit to be $500 billion and counting.
This is the highest budget deficit in history.
To service this level of debt, each American will be forced to pay higher taxes in order to repay the debt.
Gross Domestic Product (the measure of the value of goods and services manufactured within the USA) is also down, even after factoring in the lower international dollar exchange rate.
All of this data indicates to me that the US economy is far from being healthy.

You also contend that BinLaden and Omar are not an issue.
This is a very surprising statement to make in light of the amount of money and time that your country has taken in trying to capture these people.
Throw in also how much money BinLaden and Omar have cost your country (military wages and costs, security costs at airports and airlines, insurance and re-insurance costs following the 2001 Trade center attacks, the cost for five days in which your whole economy was effectively shut down after the Trade center attacks, the cost of increasing security at all your national and foreign government buildings etc).
How many billions of dollars have these two cost your country, Barbbar ?
These two have cost your country dearly.
Two third world neverwases !

You state that Germany and France are jealous of your country.
Once again you exaggerate.
In economic terms, it’s a no brainer (although for you, I’d better take the time to explain it).
In comparing France and/or Germany to the USA, you fail to think that you are comparing a continent (USA) to individual countries.
In economic terms, you’re attempting to compare, apples with oranges.

Politically, Germany and France as part of the EU, have been against this illegal war.
The EU opposed the US invasion of Iraq.
The EU stated the Iraq never posed a threat.
The EU tried to urge Bush not to invade Iraq.
Who in their right mind could be jealous of a country which purports to be “liberating” a nation, yet ends up going to war with the very people they said they say they purport to liberate ?

Bush has sacrificed the good name and credibility of the USA on the altar of expediency.
Jealous of America – certainly not.
We despair for those Americans who have been shamed by the policy of the Bush government.

You also state that the WMD’s that the intelligence about WMD was 100% correct.
But Colin Powell stated to the UN in February 2002 that Hussein had WMD in Iraq !
Colin Powell produced photographs of mobile WMD’s !
Colin Powell’s evidence was later proven to be doctored !
Is this the intelligence that was 100% correct ?
Or is there another piece of intelligence that is 100% correct ?
Wait a second !
The USA has been occupying Iraq since MARCH 2003 – 14 MONTHS ; AND IT STILL HASN’T FOUND ANY WMD’s.
What part of the intelligence is missing here, Barbbar – because I’m getting confused now.
Your country has had unfettered access to all of Iraq and not a single solitary find of Uranium has been uncovered !
Not one ounce of Uranium !
(I know you’re in the slow lane – so I’ll explain it for you – you see Uranium is the constituent element that goes in to the making of nuclear weapons or WMD :
Uranium 235 and 238 give off radiation which can be detected for years)
So it’s now all buried somewhere and the Israeli’s and the Syrians know where it’s hidden, according to you.
If the Israeli’s know where it is – why haven’t they told the USA ?
Why ?
Because I tell you why.
Your statement is about WMD is a lie.
Another lie to go with all of the rest of the lies promulgated in the illegal war in Iraq.

One final point, when you post messages making generalizations – have some data to back them up !
Throughout this reply, I have referred to names and data and dates – all of which are freely available data if you take the time to read and inquire about a subject.
Try backing up your argument with information, instead of shrill pronouncements.
None of your posts to the Forum have data supplied with them.

And I would also suggest that you refrain from making exaggerated statements like
“quote Barbbar : who either hate America or are insanely jealous of our wealth and power”
These type of statements are frankly ridiculous.
No one that I know hates America or is jealous of America.
People dislike/hate Bush and his policies but they certainly don’t tar all Americans because of what Bush and his discredited government are doing.
People I know do not make sweeping generalizations like you appear to do.
 

limerickman

Moderator
Jan 5, 2004
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The reason why I am taking an interest in the US and it’s foreign policy is that it is important that the US government in particular, and all governments, act on the wishes of the people who they claim to represent.

I do not believe that most Americans support the war in Iraq.
I do not believe that the invasion of Iraq and the subsequent systematic torture and humiliation of Iraqi’s, represents the wishes of the American people.
In fact, I know of a large amount of Americans who are, quite frankly, shocked, dismayed, embarrassed that crimes are being committed in their name, by the forces of the US government in Iraq and Guantenemo.

In this age of mass, instant communication, the activities of all governments invoke more closer scrutiny.
This is a good thing.
It is important, in this instance, for the american people to see the crimes that are being committed in their name, by their government , in other countries.
It helps to make them realise perhaps, that their governments actions are crimes and it might just inspire them to think that if their own government are acting this way abroad, what’s to stop them acting this way within the USA ?

This is what democracy is all about – freedom, openness and transparency.
Withholding information, or trying to hide crimes, is what Saddam Hussein and other dictators do.

I listen to the expedient excuses given by a disingenuous Bush government throughout this illegal war.
I then see those lies being exposed by brave American people – such as the soldier who handed up the tapes, of systematic torture at Abu Ghuraib prison, on the 13th January 2004.
I watch to see if the Bush government can uncover the WMD’s which they lied about.
I watch to see if the Bush government can uncover any
connection between Hussein and Al Quaeda.
The occupation of Iraq is now 14 months in duration : and still no evidence on any issue for the invasion of Iraq, has been proffered by Bush or his government.
The Bush government told the American public and the international community in the
12 months preceding it’s invasion of Iraq in March 2003, that it had “substantive evidence” which required it (USA) to invade Iraq.
Not one scintilla of evidence has ever been produced.

It is in everyones interest that the Bush government lies are exposed : most especially for those people who have to live in America !
 

zapper

Banned
Mar 11, 2004
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Originally posted by limerickman
Limerickman : Ah, our cold warrior friend is back on line.
First of all, Barbbar, you only have to push the submit reply button once – not twice !
The same reply has been posted TWICE (on pages 5 & 6 of this thread).
I know you older folk living in the Nixon era ain’t used to technology, but believe me it works.
You only have to submit your reply once – for it to be published.


You state that Germany and France are jealous of your country.
Once again you exaggerate.
In economic terms, it’s a no brainer (although for you, I’d better take the time to explain it).
In comparing France and/or Germany to the USA, you fail to think that you are comparing a continent (USA) to individual countries.
In economic terms, you’re attempting to compare, apples with oranges.
.

Ah Limerickman our "informed" translantic correspondent. Hey Einstein prior to lecturing Babaar on the intracies of submitting a post, why don't you take a geography lesson 007! The United States of America is not a Continent "North America" is.....unless some tectonic plates have shifted that I'm not aware of...

Further, have you got anything better to do than cut and past a bunch of articles taken out of context... Oh, that's right, you are that media guy who has his fingers on the pulse of the world...

Comparing to Clinton era to Bush, now you have your apples to oranges scenario...9/11! I've said it before. If your country had suffered a catastophy that effected travel, fuel, of that magnatude etc...you would be typing your post on an IBM selecta III right now.

So, don't waste our time with novel like posts with misleading information attached to it, it is a waste of time. There is not a person that I know that thinks our economy is failing. So, we'll just have to live here in the squalor...maybe you can send your donations to me...I'll give you a post office box. I'm sure babaar will give you his as well....we are so poor..............
 

zapper

Banned
Mar 11, 2004
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Originally posted by ejglows
I prefer the term `Ethnocentric`....has a kinda flair to it...

uh, thats not how you spell anthropolgy....Must be a typo!
 

less'go

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Sep 11, 2003
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One of the forum members has a great little quote as her sig:

Constructive, Internet, Argument.

Pick any two.
 

zapper

Banned
Mar 11, 2004
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Originally posted by less'go
One of the forum members has a great little quote as her sig:

Constructive, Internet, Argument.

Pick any two.
Cute......
 

Babbar

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Aug 10, 2003
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Originally posted by Saucy
I'm really getting sick of reading this kind of ****. Its one thing to make your point and disagree but is it really necessary to be so rude and condescending?


Rude and condescending? When someone makes an incredibly ignorant statement without foundation like "Anyone but Bush" to call it anything but an incredibly ignorant statement would be a lie.

Saucy

This tone become so rampant that I don't even bother posting in these political threads due to certain posters (zapper and babbar) that frequent them and attack other posters by writing stuff like this.

When someone points out the truth of another's incredibly ignorant statements, it is not an "attack," it is a discussion. Of course, the other side of the coin, when someone says something untoward about a conservative politician or a conservative poster, it seems to be perfectly acceptable. Hypocrisy, they name is leftist Democrat.

Saucy
Why is it that the pro-bush posters seem to feel that they have to be abusive to other posters in order to make their point? Everyone else is making their arguments without attacking other posters, why cant you?

What you call "abusive" in a post by a conservative you ignore or praise when similar or worse is posted by a leftist. Hypocrisy, thy name is Saucy.

[/QUOTE]Saucy
I am interested in peoples thoughts on these subjects but reading stuff like this is not only offensive (moderators where are you ?) but its also embarassing to all Americans everywhere.
[/QUOTE]

Thoughts? I gave the poster who said "anyone but Bush" a chance to explain his position or to correct the ignorance it displayed, yet he demured. You are attacking me for doing nothing more than pointing out that another leftist had stuck his foot in his mouth and was munching away on his own ignorance. If you can't take the heat, why are you here?

p.s. That is known as a rhetorical question, which requires no answer. Since you are adding nothing whatsoever to the discussion, it is best to keep quiet.
 

Babbar

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Aug 10, 2003
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Originally posted by Fixey
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And you guys wonder why so many people dislike America. If you look up the word arogant in a dictionary in the future you may well see Babbars post as the definition.


"You guys?" It is the leftist scum like Ted Kennedy, idiots like Jimmy Carter, and their brain-dead, lock-step acolytes who wonder why some hate us.

Real Americans, I mean those who truly believe in the Constitution and the unique American culture don't worry about the mental diseases of fanatics.
 

Beastt

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Sep 19, 2003
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Originally posted by Babbar
When someone points out the truth of another's incredibly ignorant statements, it is not an "attack," it is a discussion. Of course, the other side of the coin, when someone says something untoward about a conservative politician or a conservative poster, it seems to be perfectly acceptable. Hypocrisy, they name is leftist Democrat.


Thoughts? I gave the poster who said "anyone but Bush" a chance to explain his position or to correct the ignorance it displayed, yet he demured. You are attacking me for doing nothing more than pointing out that another leftist had stuck his foot in his mouth and was munching away on his own ignorance. If you can't take the heat, why are you here?

Perhaps you'd better go look again.

I would submit that it's time to take a moment and look into the mirror. You read 3-words and from nothing more than that, begin to make sweeping statements concerning the knowledge, or lack thereof, of the source.

You could easily have stated that the comment lacked enough substance to support itself, but instead you decided to attempt to use it to set yourself above other people; people you know little or nothing about.

Look at your comments here. You've established my entire political frame of mind based on 3-words. Either you're psychic or you're showing how quickly you are willing to jump to conclusions with the tiniest base of evidence.

Bush lied to the whole of the American public and when that lie was exposed, he lied again and, unfortunately, many people accepted his lies. Rumsfeld has done the same thing yet Bush continues to support him. General Richard Myers attempted to suppress the story about prisoner abuse by calling "60 Minutes" and requesting that they not show the photos. Rumsfeld backs him and Bush again, backs Rumsfeld.

I don't back those who have shown themselves to be anti-American and who have shown a belief in lying to the people in order to achieve the goals of their hidden agendas.

These people are not Americans. They hold no American values and see it as their right to lie to, and mislead the American public. If you support such ideas, then in calling yourself an American, you show a true lack of understanding about what the country is all about.
 

zapper

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Mar 11, 2004
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Beastt
Look at your comments here. You've established my entire political frame of mind based on 3-words. Either you're psychic or you're showing how quickly you are willing to jump to conclusions with the tiniest base of evidence.


NO, you look again colonel Sanders...your political leanings were made obvious with TWO words..."Bush Lied" brings to mind that hilarious sound byte from Gore..."George Bush betrayed this country" in his most "deanlike" screech....Simply priceless


Beastt
General Richard Myers attempted to suppress the story about prisoner abuse by calling "60 Minutes" and requesting that they not show the photos. Rumsfeld backs him and Bush again, backs Rumsfeld.

Wrongo again! The investigation was ongoing(since JAN 04), he simply wanted the press to hold off until it was done..Not to mention, its a no brainer, that those photo's would incite the insurgents and give some legs to their cause..But I submit, that the Libs were pushing it for political gain and are praying that we fail! Further, its a no brainer the dems are running out of ideas for their political ads. I see it now. President Bush flies into the night on airforce 1..lands, goes to the prison and personally takes part of all the shenanigans at the prison and flies back under cover...PAAAAALEASE.......

Beastt
I don't back those who have shown themselves to be anti-American and who have shown a belief in lying to the people in order to achieve the goals of their hidden agendas.These people are not Americans. They hold no American values and see it as their right to lie to, and mislead the American public. If you support such ideas, then in calling yourself an American, you show a true lack of understanding about what the country is all about.

WHOA! I don't believe my eyes...Am I anti-american? I don't believe my Commander-in-chief lied...Are you calling those Soldiers who risk their lives everyday anti-american cause they believe in their Commander-in-chief? Are you alienating the rest of the U.S. population who disagree with you? We are anti-American because we are voting for Bush?

You slay me Beastt...Babaar is a veteran and I am on active duty. Not only do we "have an idea" what America is about, we "participate" and have put our lives on the line so you can state your leftest opinion. America is made up of many different beliefs. Some will see YOUR America, Some will see my version or their own. So unless your name is Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Abe Lincoln and so on...bring yourself down to earth, if you had a clue about what being an American was about you would know that part of it is the right to state your opinion, not stifle it because it is different from yours. There is a big difference between calling someone left/right and disagreeing with their viewpoint vs calling one “anti-American!”
 

cuervo

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Mar 23, 2004
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Originally posted by zapper
...PAAAAALEASE.......

It seems to me that your anger its going over your fingers …

BTW, I’m an American, because I was born in the American CONTINENT, even doe, I will not vote in your presidential elections (and I never will vote for Bush even if I could)

Don’t bother to answer me, I’m just amused with your fanatic attitude. That reminds me, when Miguel Bose was asked about Afghanistan invasion looking for BL, he says something like “it’s not worth to talk about it, it’s a war between two fanatics believing that the absolute right it’s on theirs side and the other side it’s the absolute evil”.
 

zapper

Banned
Mar 11, 2004
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Originally posted by cuervo
It seems to me that your anger its going over your fingers …

BTW, I’m an American, because I was born in the American CONTINENT, even doe, I will not vote in your presidential elections (and I never will vote for Bush even if I could)

Don’t bother to answer me, I’m just amused with your fanatic attitude. That reminds me, when Miguel Bose was asked about Afghanistan invasion looking for BL, he says something like “it’s not worth to talk about it, it’s a war between two fanatics believing that the absolute right it’s on theirs side and the other side it’s the absolute evil”.

Anger huh,...Once again...Let the Right say something and we are angry zealots...

I won't vote for bush because???? yadda yadda yadda...thanks for you substantive input! The thread is about kerry or bush..
 

limerickman

Moderator
Jan 5, 2004
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Originally posted by zapper
Ah Limerickman our "informed" translantic correspondent. Hey Einstein prior to lecturing Babaar on the intracies of submitting a post, why don't you take a geography lesson 007! The United States of America is not a Continent "North America" is.....unless some tectonic plates have shifted that I'm not aware of...

Further, have you got anything better to do than cut and past a bunch of articles taken out of context... Oh, that's right, you are that media guy who has his fingers on the pulse of the world...

Comparing to Clinton era to Bush, now you have your apples to oranges scenario...9/11! I've said it before. If your country had suffered a catastophy that effected travel, fuel, of that magnatude etc...you would be typing your post on an IBM selecta III right now.

So, don't waste our time with novel like posts with misleading information attached to it, it is a waste of time. There is not a person that I know that thinks our economy is failing. So, we'll just have to live here in the squalor...maybe you can send your donations to me...I'll give you a post office box. I'm sure babaar will give you his as well....we are so poor..............

In this instance, I am revoking my policy of not replying directly to your posts because of your continued disingenuousness.
In this instance, I feel compelled to reply because, yet again, your most recent reply to my points have been DELIBRATELY misleading,

You state and I quote “Comparing to Clinton era to Bush, now you have your apples to oranges scenario...9/11! I've said it before. If your country had suffered a catastophy that effected travel, fuel, of that magnatude etc...you would be typing your post on an IBM selecta III right now.
So, don't waste our time with novel like posts with misleading information attached to it, it is a waste of time. There is not a person that I know that thinks our economy is failing “

I compared the economic performance of the US economy under the Clinton administration to the Bush administration’s stewardship of the US economy.
In my post at 14-05-2004 at 3.48pm, I supplied INDEPENDENT economic data showing that your economy is not performing, I quoted names, dates and economic data (quoting the Economist magazine, quoting Han Mettling and quoting OECD).

The information that I posted at 14/5/04 at 3.48pm is my opinion, based upon facts.
Now if you want to contradict those facts, with your OPINION (and not facts - as usual), fine, but do not attempt to spin my opinion.
Quote “So, don't waste our time with novel like posts with misleading information attached to it, it is a waste of time. There is not a person that I know that thinks our economy is failing”
You are the one who has been - and continues to be - misleading and disingenuous.
WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS TO SHOW THAT MY DATA IS MISLEADING ?
I’m not talking about your alleged anecdotal evidence of buying a $120.00 meal
(and God knows, you’re not exactly splashing out paying $120.00 for a meal !).
For once, quote me some data from a respected economic journal that says that unemployment in your country is not at 6% and climbing, or which says that your
country’s budget deficit is not $500 billion and climbing !
If you did have some independent data - instead of your opinion - I might be persuaded to seriously consider your point of view.

Can I ask you, have you had the benefit of an education after you finished High School ?
I ask this because it is evident that you are unable to assimilate information.
I posted names, dates and times to the economic evidence produced in my reply at 14/5/2004 at 3.48pm
If you did have the ability to assimilate information, you would clearly see that
I posted names, dates and times to the economic evidence produced in my reply at 14/5/2004 at 3.48pm.

Indeed, from reading your replies, to those who disagree with your point of view,
your behaviour is almost Pavlovian (as another poster here has pointed out already).
You are extremely defensive to the point that you not only disagree with us
non-Americans, you vehemently disagree with your fellow citizens.
You cannot countenance anyone opposing your view.

If someone says white - you automatically say black.
It’s a problem, Zapper, when the facts get in the way, isn’t it ?
It’s inconvenient when those who oppose your view, have details and data that can be verified and checked, independently.
Instead of evaluating the data contained in other peoples posts, you put your hands over your ears, and close your eyes, and start repeating the same old tired
mantras in the hope that you can drown out those who oppose you.

You also contend that you couldn’t care less about other people or their opinions !
Well for someone who doesn’t give a damn, you certainly take a lot of time to post your replies to those who you don’t give a damn about !

You also contend that there is some vast conspiracy where the only published facts are those which happen to oppose your view : and that the real facts, which tie in with your view, are somehow, deliberately, prevented from being published.
(For the record the statistical and other information that I have posted here on this thread come from publications such as the US Economic Data reports, Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, The New Yorker, Sunday Times (London), Irish Times, Reuters, Associated Press, Sky News, Channel 4 News, BBC : my view is informed from the information contained therein).

FYI : SEE THE DOLLAR IS STARTING TO SLIDE AGAIN (see www.financialtimes.com <http://www.financialtimes.com>)
And you contend that your economy is in great shape - indeed.

Finally, you contend that your country will win the war on terror.
I think this largely depends upon what you define as terror.

This is the last time that I will directly reply to one of your posts.
Unless and until, I see your posts containing verifiable data (with names and dates
and links), I intend to pursue my policy because to maintain the “white/black” dialogue with you is to only pander to your inability to debate properly.
 

beels99

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Apr 12, 2004
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I do not really want to get into the middle of this argumentative discussion, but I feel there is a need for everyones humble opinion to be included even though most people are probably too stubborn and closed-minded (or "ethnocentric" ;) ) to care.


For one let me start with a true story.....

"Last month the Bush administration handed a multinational mining company 155 acres of federally owned, prime mountaintop real estate near a Colorado ski resort. The price? Just $5 an acre (a total of $875), in an area where 1/10 of an acre fetches as much as $100,000."

and some facts (which most have already been stated, but i feel there is a need to reiterate)

-The nation's top 50 polluting power plants are owned by corporations that are tightly allied with the Bush Administration both as major campaign contributors and in conducting pollution policymaking

-In Bush's state of the union he spoke so surely of weapons of mass destruction. AND.......there were none.

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." --George Bush

-The overall opinion of the population of the United States appears, and appeared to have opposed the start and the continuation of the war in Iraq.

-We are a member of the UN, and we should get UN approval before we do anything as drastic as starting a full-scale invasion of another soverign state.

-Lastly the overall message that the Bush administration is sending to the world is that we are a country that doesn't care if anything gets in our way of doing whatever we feel like doing.


While there are many more facts about the Bush administration that I would be happy to add, I would like to ask anyone who disagrees with my opinion to please post and list some positive facts about Bush, and some negative facts about kerry.

I will end by saying that I realize that kerry is not an extremely good candidate for president either, I feel that it should not be hard for him to do a better job than George Bush did.

beels99
 

Chaim

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Jan 24, 2004
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Originally posted by limerickman
Bush's foreign policy failures :

1.Capturing BinLaden : failed
2.Capturing Mullah Omar : failed
3.Creating Democracy in Afghanistan : failed
4.Creating Deocracy in Iraq : failed.
5. Acting on reliable intelligence reports prior to 11th September
2001 : failed.

Other notable Bush policy errors :
Anatagonised the majority of EU nations - ignored or vetoed the UN - ignored or vetoed the Kyoto Treaty

Bush's economic policy :
1 :The value of the US Dollar has fallen by 35% since 2000.
2 : Nasdaq and Dow Jones indexes have collapsed against their
2000 values (DOW JONES was trading at above 10k and the
Nasdaq was above 4k).
3 : US budget 2000 showed the USA in surplus to 200 billion
US budget deficit at April 2004 is 500 billion dollars and
growing.
4 : US employment actually contracted in the years 2001 - 2003.


We did not start the war.

War has ups and downs. You can not win all the time. You need to support the people that are in charge and hope for long term win.

If somebody hides in a cave in the mountains, its hard to find him. It is as simple as that. Do you blam Bush for this?

Since we are at war, it cost money! What can we do?
Democrats have more money than republicans? Clinton started the downturn...let not forget!

We need to understand the strategy, long term goals, etc. and Bush has a vision. Its hard and takes time. Years.

Should we sit and do nothing? Hide? Negotiate with terorists? Criminals?

and about the UN...do you realy think the UN can do enything at was times? They can hardly police regions during peace times.
The the UN is not currupt?
 

beels99

New Member
Apr 12, 2004
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Originally posted by Chaim
We did not start the war.

Please explain that, because while mabye i can see somewhat reasonable evidence for invading afganistan.

Who started the war in Iraq, because as I recall in all began in Bush's big "Shock and Awe" campaign.
 

Chaim

New Member
Jan 24, 2004
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Originally posted by beels99
Please explain that, because while mabye i can see somewhat reasonable evidence for invading afganistan.

Who started the war in Iraq, because as I recall in all began in Bush's big "Shock and Awe" campaign.

Saddam did.

Invade Kuwait with plans to invade many other countries in the region (can you tell me where and with which country these invasions would have stopped),

Bulling the weak,

Killing as he wishes,

Stealing from his own people (and from the UN, the well known Food for oil program),

Subsiding terrorists throughout the region,

Encouraging suicide bombers in the Middle-East,

These regimes (not only Saddam. Look at the new young version of Saddam, this Saddar kid) make it a goal to keep their people uneducated, poor, depressed, and hopeless so they can control their emotions (using religion). They thrive on chaos and will try to introduce chaos in neighboring countries.

They know how to manipulate the mass and even the Western media and naïve people…
 

Chaim

New Member
Jan 24, 2004
43
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Originally posted by beels99
Please explain that, because while mabye i can see somewhat reasonable evidence for invading afganistan.

Who started the war in Iraq, because as I recall in all began in Bush's big "Shock and Awe" campaign.

...and by the way, even for Afghanistan, you can argue that we did not have to invade a country, we could just send a few special ops and capture one or two people and solve major world problem…oversimplifying.