Butted vs. straight-gauge spokes



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From a FAQ on the DT website by the author of the book "The Art of Wheel Building", Gerd Schraner at
URL: http://www.dtswiss.com/en/laufradbau-faq.html "The use of these butted ("reduced") spokes allow
longer-life wheels to be built. Spokes with a thinner mid-section aren't just lighter and more
aerodynamic but, more importantly, are much more elastic than normal straight-edged spokes. When
placed under extreme overloads, they react in a similar way to resilient bolts used in the machine
industry. If a wheel undergoes rapid radial forces, for example a bump, the spokes spring as they
take up the overload, thus protecting the hub" (and rim ... my addition).

Butted spokes are not stronger, but when properly built, will make for a more durable wheel. A
properly built wheel includes proper tensioning, spoke alignment, tension balancing, and stress
relieving.

Suggested reading "the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt.

Weight savings and aerodynamic improvements are small, but positive by-products.

David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

"Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've always used 14 gauge straight gauge 36 spoke wheels on my touring
bike
> because I was told that these spokes are more dependable under touring loads. Now it sounds like
> most posters here feel that double butted
wheels
> are at least as strong or maybe stronger. My builder who is converting my bike to cassette and
> will be rebuilding my rear wheel, feels that I should go with double butted. I weigh a little
> under 180. Used to go up to
195,
> but no more. Since the front wheel doesn't need to be rebuilt, it will remain 14 gauge straight
> gauge 36 spoked wheel. What is the primary
reason
> for double butted wheels? I would think weight savings. How much savings would that be?
>
> "Drew Eckhardt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, Joseph Kubera <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a
> lot of
> > >nice wheels are built this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said
> they cost
> > >twice as much and don't hold up as well, and didn't recommend them.
> >
> > Butted spokes (even DT Revolutions although they're harder to build
with)
> hold
> > up fine and build into a stronger wheel than straight-gauged as
explained
> in
> > _The Bicycle Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt.
> >
> > Personally, if I didn't build my own wheels I wouldn't trust people parotting such superstitions
> > to do it for me.
> >
> > >Any thoughts on this? BTW, I was going to use 32 front and 36 rear
> Torelli
> > >Masters. An all-around road bike. I weigh 180, if that matters.
> >
> > With a beer gut I weigh 175. In spite of jumping off curbs with said
> belly,
> > a back pack, and 23mm Continentals 32 hole Mavic Reflex rims laced
cross-3
> > with 14/15 spokes on the rear drive side and DT revos elsewhere hold up
> fine
> > (as in don't go out of true);
> >
> >
> > --
> > <a href="http://www.poohsticks.org/drew/">Home Page</a> The Congress shall assemble at least
> > once in every Year, and such
Meeting
> > shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law
appoint
> a
> > different Day.
 
"Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]... What is the primary reason
> for double butted wheels? I would think weight savings. How much savings would that be?

The weight savings is insignificant. A frequently quoted passage from The Book is found on page 47:"
. . . the most valuable contribution of swadging is that peak stresses are absorbed in the straight
midsection rather than concentrated in the threads and elbow, thereby substantially reducing fatigue
failures."

As a matter of fact, that passage was mentioned twice and quoted once in this very thread a
few days ago.
--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
 
"Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I've always used 14 gauge straight gauge 36 spoke wheels on my touring bike because I was told that
>these spokes are more dependable under touring loads. Now it sounds like most posters here feel
>that double butted wheels are at least as strong or maybe stronger. My builder who is converting my
>bike to cassette and will be rebuilding my rear wheel, feels that I should go with double butted. I
>weigh a little under 180. Used to go up to 195, but no more. Since the front wheel doesn't need to
>be rebuilt, it will remain 14 gauge straight gauge 36 spoked wheel. What is the primary reason for
>double butted wheels? I would think weight savings. How much savings would that be?

The other posters hit most of the real reasons for going with butted spokes. If you're still
curious about how much weight you'll save - assuming you use DT spokes and change the wheel from
2.0mm (14g) to
2./1.8mm (14/15g), expect to save about 70 grams (or about 2.5 ounces). Not a huge amount, but hey -
it's one of those rare times when you end up with something lighter AND stronger (though certainly
not cheaper).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wayne-<< What is the primary reason for double butted wheels?
>
> More durable, longer lasting wheel, all other things being equal.
>
> << I would think weight savings. How much savings would that be?
>
> Nope, not weight savings..durability.

Is this also true under heavy touring circumstances?

>
>
> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
Wayne T wrote:
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Wayne-<< What is the primary reason for double butted wheels?
>>
>> More durable, longer lasting wheel, all other things being equal.
>>
>> << I would think weight savings. How much savings would that be?
>>
>> Nope, not weight savings..durability.
>
> Is this also true under heavy touring circumstances?
>
>>
>>
>> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
>> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Yes for reasons that Jobst explains in his excelent book, far better than i could hope to do.
--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
 
Wayne T Dunlap writes:

>>> What is the primary reason for double butted wheels?

>> More durable, longer lasting wheel, all other things being equal.

>>> I would think weight savings. How much savings would that be?

>> Nope, not weight savings... durability.

> Is this also true under heavy touring circumstances?

The wheel does not know what the intent of the bicycle ride is and how continuous the use will be.
Therefore, whether touring racing or weekend rides makes no difference as far as spokes go. Load
limit is given by spoke tension. Spoke tension is limited by the rim, not the spokes. If you are
concerned with cracking the rim, then that is reduced by using thinner swaged spokes, the thinner
the better.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
"AndyMorris" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Wayne T wrote:
> > "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> Wayne-<< What is the primary reason for double butted wheels?
> >>
> >> More durable, longer lasting wheel, all other things being equal.
> >>
> >> << I would think weight savings. How much savings would that be?
> >>
> >> Nope, not weight savings..durability.
> >
> > Is this also true under heavy touring circumstances?
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
> >> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
>
> Yes for reasons that Jobst explains in his excelent book, far better than
i
> could hope to do.

And to think that all this time I thought that straight gauge was the only way to go for heavy
touring because it was stronger. Now I find that the opposite is true. Thanks everyone, I've learned
something new. Or should I say I've relearned?
> --
> Andy Morris
>
> AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK
>
>
> Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
> http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Wayne T Dunlap writes:
>
> >>> What is the primary reason for double butted wheels?
>
> >> More durable, longer lasting wheel, all other things being equal.
>
> >>> I would think weight savings. How much savings would that be?
>
> >> Nope, not weight savings... durability.
>
> > Is this also true under heavy touring circumstances?
>
> The wheel does not know what the intent of the bicycle ride is and how continuous the use will be.
> Therefore, whether touring racing or weekend rides makes no difference as far as spokes go. Load
> limit is given by spoke tension. Spoke tension is limited by the rim, not the spokes. If you are
> concerned with cracking the rim, then that is reduced by using thinner swaged spokes, the thinner
> the better.

Actually, I was concerned with breaking spokes and was wondering if a bike weighed down with 50 to
75 pounds of touring gear would be less apt to have spoke breakage with 14/15 double butted spokes
VS straight 14 gauge
>
> Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
I'm agnostic. Has anyone really seen any difference in a wheel with straight 14 ga vs butted 14/15
or is the difference theory.

Recently there was a post suggesting that wheels using butted spokes could be built to higher
tension w/o spoke pull through. How does the nipple know what size spoke is pulling it?

I recall that using a larger number of thinner spokes makes better wheels but not necessarily
butted spokes.
 
Paul Kopit writes:

> I'm agnostic. Has anyone really seen any difference in a wheel with straight 14 ga vs butted 14/15
> or is the difference theory.

This would require a life test on a machine for both types of spoke, something the industry has not
been doing since wire spoked wheels were first used. The use of strain bolts in industry in general
has been shown to have major advantage, but then the machines themselves are the life test. Bicycle
riders are not a sufficiently well controlled environment to determine a difference other than to
keep statistics of a large number of riders whose mileage is verifiably known,

> Recently there was a post suggesting that wheels using butted spokes could be built to higher
> tension w/o spoke pull through. How does the nipple know what size spoke is pulling it?

Cyclic stress causes fatigue cracks and a thinner spoke as a lower
N/mm elongation than a fat one. Hence the rim knows as does the nipple, that stress excursions with
thinner spokes are lower, assuming both rim and nipples are inhabited by Maxwell's demons making
such observations

> I recall that using a larger number of thinner spokes makes better wheels but not necessarily
> butted spokes.

If you believe that, then you must have given some thought to why that should be true. If you have,
then you know the answer to the second part.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
Paul Kopit wrote:
> I'm agnostic. Has anyone really seen any difference in a wheel with straight 14 ga vs butted 14/15
> or is the difference theory.
>=20
> Recently there was a post suggesting that wheels using butted spokes could be built to higher
> tension w/o spoke pull through. How does the nipple know what size spoke is pulling it?
>=20
> I recall that using a larger number of thinner spokes makes better wheels but not necessarily
> butted spokes.

I was hard to convince, favored straight gauge for a long time, but=20 eventually I noticed a high
correlation between rims cracking around the =

spoke holes and the use of straight 2 mm spokes.

When riding conditions apply extra stress to one spoke, and that spoke=20 can stretch a bit, part of
the stress is passed along and shared with=20 adjacent spokes. If the spoke can't stretch, the full
stress is applied =

to the rim at the one spoke hole.

Sheldon "The Willow, Not The Oak" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| The secrets of flight will not be mastered within our lifetime=85 |
| =85not within a thousand years =96Wilbur Wright, 1901 |=

+-------------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
>
>I've always used 14 gauge straight gauge 36 spoke wheels on my touring bike because I was told that
>these spokes are more dependable under touring loads. Now it sounds like most posters here feel
>that double butted wheels are at least as strong or maybe stronger. My builder who is converting my
>bike to cassette and will be rebuilding my rear wheel, feels that I should go with double butted. I
>weigh a little under 180. Used to go up to 195, but no more. Since the front wheel doesn't need to
>be rebuilt, it will remain 14 gauge straight gauge 36 spoked wheel. What is the primary reason for
>double butted wheels? I would think weight savings. How much savings would that be?

Weight savings is an extra bonus. The real reason is that a wheel with DB spokes will be more
durable, not necessarily stronger.
-----------------
Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)
 
I think I read it in a book about building "Bicycle Wheel".

On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 03:20:41 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>If you believe that, then you must have given some thought to why that should be true. If you have,
>then you know the answer to the second part.
>
>Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Paul Kopit writes:
>
> > I'm agnostic. Has anyone really seen any difference in a wheel with straight 14 ga vs butted
> > 14/15 or is the difference theory.
>
> This would require a life test on a machine for both types of spoke, something the industry has
> not been doing since wire spoked wheels were first used. The use of strain bolts in industry in
> general has been shown to have major advantage, but then the machines themselves are the life
> test. Bicycle riders are not a sufficiently well controlled environment to determine a difference
> other than to keep statistics of a large number of riders whose mileage is verifiably known,

If I'm reading you right, it sounds like you are questioning the soundness of those posts stating
that 14/15 double butted spoked wheels are sturdier than straight 14 gauge because there has not
really been any scientific tests showing it one way or the other.

>
> > Recently there was a post suggesting that wheels using butted spokes could be built to higher
> > tension w/o spoke pull through. How does the nipple know what size spoke is pulling it?
>
> Cyclic stress causes fatigue cracks and a thinner spoke as a lower
> N/mm elongation than a fat one. Hence the rim knows as does the nipple, that stress excursions
> with thinner spokes are lower, assuming both rim and nipples are inhabited by Maxwell's demons
> making such observations
>
> > I recall that using a larger number of thinner spokes makes better wheels but not necessarily
> > butted spokes.
>
> If you believe that, then you must have given some thought to why that should be true. If you
> have, then you know the answer to the second part.
>
> Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
"Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Paul Kopit wrote:
> I'm agnostic. Has anyone really seen any difference in a wheel with straight 14 ga vs butted 14/15
> or is the difference theory.
>
> Recently there was a post suggesting that wheels using butted spokes could be built to higher
> tension w/o spoke pull through. How does the nipple know what size spoke is pulling it?
>
> I recall that using a larger number of thinner spokes makes better wheels but not necessarily
> butted spokes.

I was hard to convince, favored straight gauge for a long time, but eventually I noticed a high
correlation between rims cracking around the spoke holes and the use of straight 2 mm spokes.

I must admit that I have never cracked a rim but have experienced spoke breakage on my touring bike.
Also, though I have had 14/15 double butted spokes break, I have not experienced breakage with
straight 14 gauge spokes. Maybe it was just the luck of the draw or perhaps the 14 gauge DT spokes
were superior to the 14/15 gauge spokes which may not have been as good. In fact I don't think they
were of DT quality, so perhaps double butted DTs would last longer. I guess the main point I am
trying to make is that with a touring wheel, the primary concern is with broken spokes, not cracked
rims, IMHO. At least that has been my experience.

When riding conditions apply extra stress to one spoke, and that spoke can stretch a bit, part of
the stress is passed along and shared with adjacent spokes. If the spoke can't stretch, the full
stress is applied to the rim at the one spoke hole.

Sheldon "The Willow, Not The Oak" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| The secrets of flight will not be mastered within our lifetime… | …not within a thousand years
| –Wilbur Wright, 1901 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
"Alex Rodriguez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >
> >
> >I've always used 14 gauge straight gauge 36 spoke wheels on my touring
bike
> >because I was told that these spokes are more dependable under touring loads. Now it sounds like
> >most posters here feel that double butted
wheels
> >are at least as strong or maybe stronger. My builder who is converting
my
> >bike to cassette and will be rebuilding my rear wheel, feels that I
should
> >go with double butted. I weigh a little under 180. Used to go up to
195,
> >but no more. Since the front wheel doesn't need to be rebuilt, it will remain 14 gauge straight
> >gauge 36 spoked wheel. What is the primary
reason
> >for double butted wheels? I would think weight savings. How much
savings
> >would that be?
>
> Weight savings is an extra bonus. The real reason is that a wheel with DB spokes will be more
> durable, not necessarily stronger.

If the straight guage is stronger wouldn't it be more durable than double butted under heavy loads?

> -----------------
> Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)
 
"Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > Weight savings is an extra bonus. The real reason is that a wheel with DB spokes will be more
> > durable, not necessarily stronger.
>
> If the straight guage is stronger wouldn't it be more durable than double butted under
> heavy loads?

No, because spokes don't break from overload, they break from fatigue. Double butted, or swaged,
spokes fatigue more slowly.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR
 
Wayne T Dunlap writes:

>>> I've always used 14 gauge straight gauge 36 spoke wheels on my touring bike because I was told
>>> that these spokes are more dependable under touring loads. Now it sounds like most posters here
>>> feel that double butted wheels are at least as strong or maybe stronger. My builder who is
>>> converting my bike to cassette and will be rebuilding my rear wheel, feels that I should go with
>>> double butted. I weigh a little under 180. Used to go up to 195, but no more. Since the front
>>> wheel doesn't need to be rebuilt, it will remain 14 gauge straight gauge 36 spoked wheel. What
>>> is the primary reason for double butted wheels? I would think weight savings. How much savings
>>> would that be?

>> Weight savings is an extra bonus. The real reason is that a wheel with DB spokes will be more
>> durable, not necessarily stronger.

> If the straight gauge is stronger wouldn't it be more durable than double butted under
> heavy loads?

If... but they are not, because their ends, where they fail, are identical for both types of
spoke, having the same cross section. The swaged spoke having been made from a straight gauge
spoke blank.

Fatigue is a process by which a metal is torn apart by repeated loading much lower than that needed
to forcefully break the part. Therefore, it is not rupture strength but rather stress levels under
cyclic loading that cause spokes to fail. That is why stress relieving is highly important in
building durable wheels.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
"Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote:

Whoa there, Wayne... Get your attributions correct. You can't tell who wrote what in your post, and
your info is horribly intermingled with that written by Sheldon Brown, which makes it read like a
Robin Williams on cocaine "conversation".

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

>"Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]... Paul Kopit wrote:
>> I'm agnostic. Has anyone really seen any difference in a wheel with straight 14 ga vs butted
>> 14/15 or is the difference theory.
>>
>> Recently there was a post suggesting that wheels using butted spokes could be built to higher
>> tension w/o spoke pull through. How does the nipple know what size spoke is pulling it?
>>
>> I recall that using a larger number of thinner spokes makes better wheels but not necessarily
>> butted spokes.
>
>I was hard to convince, favored straight gauge for a long time, but eventually I noticed a high
>correlation between rims cracking around the spoke holes and the use of straight 2 mm spokes.
>
>I must admit that I have never cracked a rim but have experienced spoke breakage on my touring
>bike. Also, though I have had 14/15 double butted spokes break, I have not experienced breakage
>with straight 14 gauge spokes. Maybe it was just the luck of the draw or perhaps the 14 gauge DT
>spokes were superior to the 14/15 gauge spokes which may not have been as good. In fact I don't
>think they were of DT quality, so perhaps double butted DTs would last longer. I guess the main
>point I am trying to make is that with a touring wheel, the primary concern is with broken spokes,
>not cracked rims, IMHO. At least that has been my experience.
>
>When riding conditions apply extra stress to one spoke, and that spoke can stretch a bit, part of
>the stress is passed along and shared with adjacent spokes. If the spoke can't stretch, the full
>stress is applied to the rim at the one spoke hole.
>
>Sheldon "The Willow, Not The Oak" Brown
>+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>| The secrets of flight will not be mastered within our lifetime… | …not within a thousand years
>| –Wilbur Wright, 1901 |
>+-------------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
>Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
>shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
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