buying my first bike ever...



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>My memories are certainly clouded by time, but I recall riding my brother's Peugeot in the late
>'50s and being really impressed by the brakes. What did those things have?

Don't know abot the '50s but by the '60s almost certainly some model of Mafac centerpull
caliper--Racer and later, Competition were a couple of popular ones.

With good pads and setup they remain fantastic brakes today, my Competition-equipped Peugeot with
modern cables and contemporary Scott-Mathauser pads will stop on a dime and give nine francs change,
wet or dry.

A good many pictures of that and other vintage Mafacs are on the Classic Rendezvous site.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
 
>It makes me sad to read so many responses that downplay the value of learning bicycle maintenance
>and repair.

What responses were those? Nobody here is saying that those skills aren't valuable, they are. In
direct proportion to your degree of involvement and interest in that aspect of the sport.

There may even be aspects of the sport that are important to me that you don't consider worth
consideration. But try to keep an open mind.

>The implication that women should especially be unconcerned and unwilling to learn even the basics
>of tire repair and brake adjustment leaves me wondering how much social progress has been made.

Claire can change a tire, Steve. Can you ride 200 miles in a day?

>I also wonder how many of the unbiased respondents to this thread have ownership or employment at
>bicycle sales and repair shops.

Now that was just a cheap shot. I think you'll find that most of the people who take the trouble to
post here are sincerely volunteering their best advice and are willing to accept correction or
criticism if they turn out to be wrong about something.

I also think you'll find that those who do have a financial interest in bicycle shops are fully
disclosed in that regard.

I think that most of the advice in this thread has been good, with the possible exception of mine.
Because now I'm going to give you some advice, Steve.

The Hell I am, you wouldn't take it anyway.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
 
On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:25:41 +0000, Leonard Migliore wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Jon Isaacs <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> >Me too. IMO, SPDs are the greatest advance in cycling technology of the last 20 years. I'd even
>> >put them ahead of suspension forks and index shifting.

Agreed.
>>
>> In my view the biggest advance in cycling in the last 20 years has been really decent brakes. 20
>> years ago, the only brakes that offered the capabilities of todays Vbrakes, Dual Pivots and
>> Cantilevers were a few cantilevers but they were rare since 20 years ago MTBs were just hitting
>> the market place.

I disagree with this. 20 years ago there were excellent brakes around. Campy sidepulls stopped well.
I still have a pair, and they work fine. They are every bit as strong as any other brake, when used
with the right lever. What makes a brake strong is the ratio of lever motion to pad motion. More
lever motion for a given distance of pad motion is stronger, in that the overall mechanical
advantage is greater. Of course, the pads themselves are a part of the issue. There were some awful
pads back then, and some that compare to any today.

Neither canti's nor v's offer more strength, except in the differing mechanical advantage. Of
course, cantis -- as with center-pulls -- had non-linear response (the motion ratio above depended
upon where you were in the lever travel, and was lowest where it needed to be highest), which clouds
the issue. But also, the angle of motion of cantis and V's is a problem, since it is far from
perpendicular to the rim. In this sense, the old center-pulls did quite well, as do modern
dual-pivots.

BTW, there were a fair number of cantilever brakes then. Mostly on touring and cross bikes. There
were also lots of center-pull brakes.
>>
>> I really like having brakes that work even in the wet.

More a function of pad (and rim) than brake design.

> My memories are certainly clouded by time, but I recall riding my brother's Peugeot in the late
> '50s and being really impressed by the brakes. What did those things have? I don't remember the
> model but it had tubular tires and was probably near the top of the line. And everything on it
> was French.

They were probably Mafac center-pulls, which when properly adjusted were very good brakes. On the
other hand, with the same levers Universal sidepulls, which also were around then, had very
little braking force. I do not recall whether the Universal levers compensated for that or not. I
suspect not.

If everything was French, the brakes could have been Mafac, or Weinmann (though that name does not
seem to be French, IIRC the company was). I forget where Universals were made.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or _`\(,_ | that we are to
stand by the president right or wrong, is not (_)/ (_) | only unpatriotic and servile, but is
morally treasonable to the American public. --Theodore Roosevelt
 
>If everything was French, the brakes could have been Mafac, or Weinmann (though that name does not
>seem to be French, IIRC the company was). I forget where Universals were made.

I always thought Weinmann was Swiss, although I owned a lot of bikes that used them, a Motobecane,
a couple of Raleighs, and a Belgian Flandria. The levers seemed to me to be better made than the
Mafac levers.

I remember the Universals, that sort of sounds French to me but I never had a bike that was
so equipped.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
 
[email protected] (Steve McDonald) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> It makes me sad to read so many responses that downplay the value of learning bicycle maintenance
> and repair.

What, precisely, is so objectionable about the proposition that a beginner should first learn to
ride his bicycle before he begins to repair it?

>The implication that women should especially be unconcerned and unwilling to learn even the basics
>of tire repair and brake adjustment leaves me wondering how much social progress has been made.

Who said that? Claire can change a tire, for sure, and better than I can. She could probably also
ride my sorry ass into the ground--and I'm supposed to be a young strong lad. Nobody is saying that
one *should not* learn to fix a bicycle at all costs; the consensus is that one should first learn
to ride, and then learn to repair a bicycle.

>I also wonder how many of the unbiased respondents to this thread have ownership or employment at
>bicycle sales and repair shops.

I've never worked an honest day in my life, much less at a bike shop.

You are presumably an accomplished wrench as well as a keen cyclist; you are therefore a credit to
yourself and an asset to the community, and I'd be very happy to be on a ride with you or to be in
the same neighborhood, the better to learn the necessary skills.

But the OP is *neither* a skillful mechanic *nor* a committed cyclist. It would profit him little at
all to buy a bare frame and a stack of components and to tell him that in order to ride a bicycle
he's got to build one up himself. The suggestion is absurd. At the age of five, or whenever it was
when you first stood astride a bike, did your parents make you weld the frame together yourself
before you could ride it? Have you made your own shoes? Woven your own clothes? Grown your own
grain? I wonder how you posted to this newsgroup; did you build the computer yourself? If so, does
the photolithography equipment for making silicon chips take up much space in your living room?

Repair and maintenance are not insignificant, and ignored at great personal cost (and sometimes
peril). But, I maintain, they are secondary to the experience of riding a bicycle itself: the
ability to get from place to place under your own power at surprising speed, the sensation of
movement, the awareness to your surroundings--not to mention getting to work/school/home, going to
the store, etc. Learning repair and maintenance is a long process--I still haven't seen the inside
of a bearing assembly yet--but a process that is reinforced from the experience of actual riding.

Advising a potential beginner to buy an old, clapped-out bicycle and then repairing it puts an
unnecessary burden on him; not only does he need to learn to ride the bicycle, he first has to make
the bicycle rideable; were this a necessary prerequisite to cycling, I doubt many cyclists would be
left on the street. What's wrong with letting the OP buy a new (and presumably properly-built-up,
adjusted, and reliable) bicycle and then having him learn maintenance, as most of us learn--step by
step, minor tweak to minor tweak to major project?

You can carry on wrenching if you like. But the sun's shining, and I'm riding to the store.

-Luigi
 
[email protected] (Claire Petersky) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> [email protected] (Steve McDonald) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...

> > I believe you won't be a successful or happy bike rider until you learn how to adjust and repair
> > your own equipment.
>

Whew. For a moment, I thought you were going to make a rigid, unqualified generalization.

> I'm a successful and a happy bike rider. I have only the tiniest

You're OBVIOUSLY "in denial." Seek professional help at once, and liberate your inner misery.

> inkling as how to adjust and repair my own equipment, much less repair and adjust some beat-up or
> **** bike.
>

Also depends on where and how you ride. For years,
I didn't carry tools or a pump - just a transit token
in case of breakdown. Didn't ride far out of the city.

(Oddly enough, as soon as I began carrying a pump and
spare tubes and levers, I started having neverending flats)

Since I began riding solo 70-80 km out of the city, and "Plan B" is a LONG walk back, I began
carrying more and more tools and spare parts (cables, patch kit, etc.). The oxy-acetylene welding
torch and blacksmith's forge are on order. Better safe than sorry.

Given how bad many LBS "mechanics" are, it's useful to understand what's they're SUPPOSED to be
doing, even if one doesn't do the actual repairs.

IMO Self-sufficiency only becomes essential on those long solo rides away from support systems.

(Blanche Dubois might disagree)
 
"Steve McDonald" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> It makes me sad to read so many responses that downplay the value of learning bicycle
> maintenance and repair.

We're glad you're not sad, because since there were no such responses you could hardly have
read them.

There were, on the other hand, a number of responses that flamed you for suggesting people ought not
ride unless they possess such skills, and that starting out on a junk bike (or car or boat or
motorcycle, for God's sake!) is a good plan.

I think most of the people who responded do actually perform their own bike maintenance. I
certainly do.

> I also wonder how many of the unbiased respondents to this thread have ownership or employment at
> bicycle sales and repair shops.

Yes, a cheap shot, as someone said. And a clear signal that you know you've gone over the line and
now you're looking for some justification for not admitting it.

It's OK, Steve. This is a friendly bunch. You can back down from an extreme and indefensible
position here without onus. It's easy to paint yourself in to corners on Usenet, and most of us have
done so at one time or another.

RichC
 
Steve McDonald wrote:

> It makes me sad to read so many responses that downplay the value of learning bicycle
> maintenance and repair. The implication that women should especially be unconcerned and
> unwilling to learn even the basics of tire repair and brake adjustment leaves me wondering
> how much social progress has been made. I also wonder how many of the unbiased respondents to
> this thread have ownership or employment at bicycle sales and repair shops.

In a perfect world, we'd all be Thomas Jefferson types, knowing all there is to know about every
subject for which there is knowledge.

But in reality, we are lazy, or more focused in our interests. We pick up what we need to know if we
want to, or if there is real percieved need. Otherwise, we choose to be ignorant, and there's
nothing really wrong with that if you're willing to pay the price.

I remember coming across a kid on a river trail a couple years ago who was walking his bike. He
didn't have the sense to recognize his chain had come off its sprocket! He prefered walking back to
his car rather than make an effort to fix the problem. Ca va.

While I personally can pitty those individuals who are ignorant of the workings of their bike, and
how to fix it when needed, it is a great tribute to the bicycle design that you can enjoy bicycling
most all of the time, without really needing to be technically adept at how it works and how to fix
it when it doesn't.

Your bike will *eventually* break or need adjustment. But the bike will generally tell you it needs
attention before it actually breaks.

So if you don't have the interest in fixing/adjusting it yourself, then at least have the good sense
to bring it to someone else who does in a timely manner.

SMH
 
"Stephen Harding" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Steve McDonald wrote:
>
> > It makes me sad to read so many responses that downplay the value of learning bicycle
> > maintenance and repair. The implication that women should especially be unconcerned and
> > unwilling to learn even the basics of tire repair and brake adjustment leaves me wondering
> > how much social progress has been made. I also wonder how many of the unbiased respondents
> > to this thread have ownership or employment at bicycle sales and repair shops.
>
> In a perfect world, we'd all be Thomas Jefferson types, knowing all there is to know about every
> subject for which there is knowledge.
>
> But in reality, we are lazy, or more focused in our interests. We pick up what we need to know if
> we want to, or if there is real percieved need. Otherwise, we choose to be ignorant, and there's
> nothing really wrong with that if you're willing to pay the price.
>
> I remember coming across a kid on a river trail a couple years ago who was walking his bike. He
> didn't have the sense to recognize his chain had
come
> off its sprocket! He prefered walking back to his car rather than make an effort to fix the
> problem. Ca va.
>
> While I personally can pitty those individuals who are ignorant of the workings of their bike, and
> how to fix it when needed, it is a great
tribute
> to the bicycle design that you can enjoy bicycling most all of the time, without really needing to
> be technically adept at how it works and how to fix it when it doesn't.
>
> Your bike will *eventually* break or need adjustment. But the bike will generally tell you it
> needs attention before it actually breaks.
>
> So if you don't have the interest in fixing/adjusting it yourself, then at least have the good
> sense to bring it to someone else who does in a timely manner.
>
>
> SMH

Plus, the cost of the tools can be exorbitant. I have hundreds of dollars in bike repair tools, and
I'm still thinking of taking my mountain bike to the shop to get -- gasp! -- a tune up, some cables
replaced, and a rear wheel truing. True, I have the tools and the know-how, but sometimes I'd rather
be doing something else (like riding my racing bike or relaxing or going to the park or....) than
working on my bike. Is it worth saving $80 (or whatever) to spend an entire day doing this myself,
or would I rather being doing something I enjoy? I really don't enjoy working on my bike.

--
Bob ctviggen at rcn dot com
 
"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...

> Plus, the cost of the tools can be exorbitant. I have
hundreds of dollars
> in bike repair tools, and I'm still thinking of taking my
mountain bike to
> the shop to get -- gasp! -- a tune up, some cables
replaced, and a rear
> wheel truing. True, I have the tools and the know-how,
but sometimes I'd
> rather be doing something else (like riding my racing bike
or relaxing or
> going to the park or....) than working on my bike. Is it
worth saving $80
> (or whatever) to spend an entire day doing this myself, or
would I rather
> being doing something I enjoy? I really don't enjoy
working on my bike.

Bike tools are actually pretty cheap as tools go, but you could easily spend a couple hundred
dollars setting yourself up to fix everything on your bike. This makes sense if you're a hardcore
mountain biker requiring monthly overhauls. However, most people don't use their bikes that hard.
There's no reason a bike shouldn't be very reliable indeed, needing very little service except chain
lubrication and the occasional flat fix. If the bike is set up properly to begin with, it shouldn't
need significant service more than once or twice a year, even with heavy use.

Matt O.
 
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 02:10:37 +0000, Eric S. Sande wrote:

>>If everything was French, the brakes could have been Mafac, or Weinmann (though that name does not
>>seem to be French, IIRC the company was). I forget where Universals were made.
>
> I always thought Weinmann was Swiss, although I owned a lot of bikes that used them, a Motobecane,
> a couple of Raleighs, and a Belgian Flandria. The levers seemed to me to be better made than the
> Mafac levers.
>
I should have checked. Sheldon says they were located first in Belgium (essentially French,
right???) and Switzerland, then moved of all places to the US.

> I remember the Universals, that sort of sounds French to me but I never had a bike that was so
> equipped.

The source of all knowledge, since I was already at his site, claims they are Italian. Huh.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a _`\(,_ | conclusion. --
George Bernard Shaw (_)/ (_) |
 
just thought i'd drop another follow-up...

i found a couple local bike shops within walking distance of campus. at one of them, pedal power
(they have a website... www.pedalpowerbikes.com) i talked to one of the workers there for a while. i
told him about my situation, what i'm looking for, my price range, etc. and he showed a Giant model
called Rincon. It was 21", and i took it outside and rode it around the block (which was a little
funny to watch, seeing as i haven't ridden a bike in years) and it felt pretty good. Most people
have been telling me that Giant is a pretty good brand, but I saw that there looked to be pretty big
shocks on the front fork... is that bad? I think some people have replied and told me that
suspension is bad if i'm going to primarily ride it on paved road.

anyway, thanks for your suggestions... i should be buying a bike this weekend, and i might buy that
one if it pans out.

oh, the price tag was $299... right at the top of my price range.
 
(all snipped)

> They were probably Mafac center-pulls, which when properly adjusted were very good brakes. On the
> other hand, with the same levers Universal sidepulls, which also were around then, had very
> little braking force. I do not recall whether the Universal levers compensated for that or not. I
> suspect not.
>
> If everything was French, the brakes could have been Mafac, or Weinmann (though that name does not
> seem to be French, IIRC the company was). I forget where Universals were made.

Mafac they were, and centerpulls they were. And the rest of the bike worked too.
 
[email protected] (joshua lee) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

>Most people have been telling me that Giant is a pretty good brand, but I saw that there looked to
>be pretty big shocks on the front fork... is that bad? I think some people have replied and told me
>that suspension is bad if i'm going to primarily ride it on paved road.

Not "bad" as much as sub-optimal, in my opinion. Just another thing to adjust, maintain, and worry
about--but if you ride off road, it might just be justifiable.

A similarly-specified bike with a rigid fork should be even cheaper and just as suitable, though;
that way, you can save money for books (tell that to your parents) or beer (tell that to your
buddies) or bike stuff (which is really closer to the truth) *grin*.

Mind that you don't keep the bike outside to rust! Spending RealMoney (TM) on a bike will suddenly
make you protective of it, or anyway it will seem more important to you (and if the bike is earning
you RealMoney, you act like the chaps in "Ladri di biciclette")..

-Luigi
 
>just thought i'd drop another follow-up...
>
>i found a couple local bike shops within walking distance of campus. at one of them, pedal power
>(they have a website... www.pedalpowerbikes.com) i talked to one of the workers there for a while.
>i told him about my situation, what i'm looking for, my price range, etc. and he showed a Giant
>model called Rincon. It was 21", and i took it outside and rode it around the block (which was a
>little funny to watch, seeing as i haven't ridden a bike in years) and it felt pretty good. Most
>people have been telling me that Giant is a pretty good brand, but I saw that there looked to be
>pretty big shocks on the front fork... is that bad? I think some people have replied and told me
>that suspension is bad if i'm going to primarily ride it on paved road.
>
>anyway, thanks for your suggestions... i should be buying a bike this weekend, and i might buy that
>one if it pans out. oh, the price tag was $299... right at the top of my price range.
>
I looked this bike over on the Giant website:

http://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/030.000.000/030.000.000.asp?lYear=2003&bi
kesection=8817&range=122&model=10630

It looks like a decent bike to me, it has 36 spoke wheels with stainless steel spokes. The
suspension fork issue is a complex one. These days most decent MTBs come with a suspension fork so
finding one with a rigid fork is a bit tough. The supension fork will make the bike ride more
smoothly but it will be a bit less efficient. But crank the preload up to max and it should be fine.

You might want to see if the fellow will swap out the tires for some road type tires if you are
planning on riding entirely on the road.

Best wishes and if you have any further questions, please ask.

jon isaacs
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "B. Sanders" wrote:
> >
> > "Steve McDonald" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > My suggestion to you, for your situation, is to buy the cheapest model you can find,
> > > which may be for $59.99 on sale at a place like a Target Store.
> >
> > There's a pretty good chance that such a bike was produced in a Chinese sweat shop using slave
> > labor conditions. If you buy such a bike, you
are in
> > effect advocating this practice. I don't know about bikes sold at
Target;
> > but Huffy brand bikes are known to be produced by endentured workers
under
> > horrific sweatshop conditions....
>
> I have been informed that workers that make quality bicycles (e.g. Giant) in Taiwan are typically
> paid the equivalent of $12-15 US an hour, which is approximately 30 to 70 times more compensation
> than the workers making Huffy's in mainland China receive. [1] In addition, Taiwan has become a
> democratic nation in recent years.

I think by 'the equivalent' you / wherever you got that from means the equivalent value in terms of
buying local produce, rather than equal-value-according-to-current-exchange-rate. So you're talking
about workers having no trouble getting enough to eat, sure, but they're never going to be earning
enough to buy any foreign luxury type stuff (Taiwanese food prices are about a third of US food
prices, if you go by the exchange rates).

That said, it's much better than a sweatshop.

Peter

>
> [1] This is more than many US factory workers make.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
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