By George!!! WooHoo!!

[limerickman]

I don't see Hincapie as lying. He encouraged Perreiro to work together with him. People say that to people they are on breaks with all the time. There was nothing Perreiro could have done, unless Hincapie cracked. Hincapie was not going to pull. What do you do? So, what Hincapie told Perreiro did not change the outcome. Also:

-- What working with another rider means is subjective. It could mean they go to the top of the climb together, which they did.

-- After Hincapie failed to pull and go to the front the first time after Hincapie said that to Perreiro, Perreiro should have started to reevaluate and ask whether Hincapie intended to continue to sit on his wheel until the end. Why didn't Perreiro say something to Hincapie, or more strongly encourage Hincapie to go to the front, at that time? (not that it would have changed things)

-- Perreiro and everybody in the peloton knows that, if Hincapie and Perreiro were to get to the top of Plat d'Adet together, Hincapie would win the sprint with a high probability. Perreiro knew this from the time of the beginning of the breakways and he of course knew that when hincapie said those things to him. So, Perreiro took a gamble that Hincapie would be dropped before Plat d'Adet. Obviously, that gamble failed.

GH didn't take a turn at the front until about 3kms from the end.
He stayed at the back of the front group all day.
If you'd seen the stage, you'd know this.

Not taking anything away from GH's win but he didn't exactly work for the group (which contradicts the earlier PR waffle you posted from Carmichael and Bruyneel, respectively).

 

[thebluetrain]

GH didn't take a turn at the front until about 3kms from the end.
He stayed at the back of the front group all day.
If you'd seen the stage, you'd know this.

Not taking anything away from GH's win but he didn't exactly work for the group (which contradicts the earlier PR waffle you posted from Carmichael and Bruyneel, respectively).

Hincapie stayed at the back of the group all day because he was told to. That was what was intended by the team. Ride the wheel unitl LA catches the break and then help him. I don't remember who it was in the break with Hincapie but there was one other person who did the same thing. I see how no one in the TdF can complain because if they had been in the same situation as GH, that person and team would have done the same thing.

 

[thebluetrain]

Hincapie stayed at the back of the group all day because he was told to. That was what was intended by the team. Ride the wheel unitl LA catches the break and then help him. I don't remember who it was in the break with Hincapie but there was one other person who did the same thing. I see how no one in the TdF can complain because if they had been in the same situation as GH, that person and team would have done the same thing.

Now I remember, I think it was Oscar Sevilla from T-mobile.

 

[musette]

And Hincapie also stayed at the back because he could. He didn't need to try and win the stage. He didn't need to try and get higher on GC. He had a teamleader who is in the yellow jersey behind him in the race.

And equally crucially, knowing the length and difficulty of the stage, why not sit back and conserve energy, whilst one's competitors are doing all the work! Hah, hah. Even after it was obvious the break would not be caught.

It was natural Hincapie wouldn't do any work. In fact, it would be FOOLISH for a cyclist in Hincapie's position to do any work in the break!

It's not less honorable to win a stage in this way. In fact, it's a sign of a cyclist having brains.

 

[limerickman]

Hincapie stayed at the back of the group all day because he was told to. That was what was intended by the team. Ride the wheel unitl LA catches the break and then help him. I don't remember who it was in the break with Hincapie but there was one other person who did the same thing. I see how no one in the TdF can complain because if they had been in the same situation as GH, that person and team would have done the same thing.

Sevilla and Hincapie sat at the back of the group when they were in the leading group.

Another poster here posted this waffle :
What working with another rider means is subjective. It could mean they go to the top of the climb together

Hincapie never worked with Pereiro and to suggest otherwise is either a lie
or is the view of someone who did watch the stage.

Blue : no one is begrudging GH his win or his tactics on the stage.
It's more the revsionism of the cheerleader that is at issue here.

 

[thebluetrain]

Sevilla and Hincapie sat at the back of the group when they were in the leading group.

Another poster here posted this waffle :
What working with another rider means is subjective. It could mean they go to the top of the climb together

Hincapie never worked with Pereiro and to suggest otherwise is either a lie
or is the view of someone who did watch the stage.

Blue : no one is begrudging GH his win or his tactics on the stage.
It's more the revsionism of the cheerleader that is at issue here.

Ok, Pereiro also attacked. Are you obliged to work together with someone after they have attacked?

 

[musette]

The bottom line was: Either Perreiro really didn't believe what Hincapie said, or else Perreiro was naive!

 

[roadhog]

GH didn't take a turn at the front until about 3kms from the end.
He stayed at the back of the front group all day.
If you'd seen the stage, you'd know this.

Not taking anything away from GH's win but he didn't exactly work for the group (which contradicts the earlier PR waffle you posted from Carmichael and Bruyneel, respectively).

Admittedly, I have not been following grand tours as long as most of you, but isn't there an "unwritten rule" that a rider who's teammate wears the yellow jersey is not expected to work in a breakaway? I have seen reference to this "unwritten rule" several times (prior to today's stage) when reading accounts of stages even 30 years ago I believe. The reason for the "unwritten rule" is not obvious to me, but regardless, if it is some sort of tradition, why is it a big deal that GH did not work today? The minute I saw him go on the break today I knew he wouldn't have to work, regardless of what the cirumstances were, because his captain is wearing the yellow jersey. Now some are scorning him for following a long-standing Tour tradition? What gives?

 

[thebluetrain]

Admittedly, I have not been following grand tours as long as most of you, but isn't there an "unwritten rule" that a rider who's teammate wears the yellow jersey is not expected to work in a breakaway? I have seen reference to this "unwritten rule" several times (prior to today's stage) when reading accounts of stages even 30 years ago I believe. The reason for the "unwritten rule" is not obvious to me, but regardless, if it is some sort of tradition, why is it a big deal that GH did not work today? The minute I saw him go on the break today I knew he wouldn't have to work, regardless of what the cirumstances were, because his captain is wearing the yellow jersey. Now some are scorning him for following a long-standing Tour tradition? What gives?

Its because he is an American on a team with an American sponsor and an American 6 time TdF winner that some people outside America and on this forum want to see LOSE.

 

[musette]

roadhog -- That's right; it would have been plain silly and contrary to strategy of Discovery Channel, for Hincapie to work. However, as you will soon find out, that doesn't preclude people on this board from debating the appropriateness of a common-day race tactic by Hincapie.

 

[limerickman]

roadhog -- That's right; it would have been plain silly and contrary to strategy of Discovery Channel, for Hincapie to work. However, as you will soon find out, that doesn't preclude people on this board from debating the appropriateness of a common-day race tactic by Hincapie.

But you tried to suggest earlier that Hincapie did work during todays stage.

GH didn't do any work in the stage until the last 3kms.
If you'd seen the stage instead of posting Carmichael/Bruyneel PR waffle you'd know this.

Yo saud earlier "What working with another rider means is subjective"
This assumes that GH did work on the stage.

GH didn't work with anyone in the front group.

The issue is your revisionism - not GH's tactics on the stage.

 

[musette]

Well, as usual, I need to further simplify my argument, in order for some to understand it.

-- Nobody disputes Hincapie wasn't on the front much during the stage.

-- What I was saying is that his conservation with Perreiro doesn't necessarily mean Hincapie was trying to lie or to deceive Perreiro. When a cyclist says he would work with another, one meaning is the conventional meaning of helping out by sometimes moving up to do some work. However, working with somebody does not have an entirely concrete meaning, and its meaning can depend on context. It could be argued to mean that Hincapie wouldn't attack Perreiro, for example, which he did not until the very end, when it was natural one of the two would have to try and win the stage. Or it could have meant that the two of them should try and continue heading up the summit, with an unclear delineation of who would do the work. Those are not the more conventional meanings of the concept of working together, but, given the history of the stage (Hincapie not working), these latter two interpretations were possible ones.

 

[limerickman]

Well, as usual, I need to further simplify my argument, in order for some to understand it.

We read your comments first time round.

Quote "What working with another rider means is subjective" : was clear enough.

-- Nobody disputes Hincapie wasn't on the front much during the stage.

You did dispute that Hincapie wasn't on the front much during the stage.

-- What I was saying is that his conservation with Perreiro ......etc etc......
..........

No one is disputing GH's tactics : it's the revisionist spin that you put on what actually happened, is what is being disputed.

 

[davidbod]

Hincapie and Sevilla did no work on the front at all when the group was together and everyone in the group knew that they wouldn't and why. You don't pull for the group when doing so would bring somone else closer to your man on GC. Whinning about it doesn't change these facts.

 

[Flyer]

Of course sitting on is a super tactic. And it may account for today's big win.

But it won't explain George climbing like a billy goat or TTing faster than Lance, et al....

Perhaps treatments of H2O2 really can clean out your vascular pipes????

Something is amiss here in these tour de Lances.

We read your comments first time round.

Quote "What working with another rider means is subjective" : was clear enough.




You did dispute that Hincapie wasn't on the front much during the stage.




No one is disputing GH's tactics : it's the revisionist spin that you put on what actually happened, is what is being disputed.

 

[Crankster]

We read your comments first time round.

Quote "What working with another rider means is subjective" : was clear enough.
You did dispute that Hincapie wasn't on the front much during the stage.

No one is disputing GH's tactics : it's the revisionist spin that you put on what actually happened, is what is being disputed.

Oh, for gods sake, you guys just wouldn't let this one die!
I realize that you don't want to "diminish Hincapie's win" in any way, the only reason you keep posting here is to set musette straight on what she may or may not have meant in her original posts regarding her interpretations of what may or may not have been said between Hincapie and Pereiro?! Yeah, we wouldn't want any ambiguity there!!!

Look, whatever was said, I think everyone will agree that after exchange Pereiro kept pedalling up with Hincapie in tow. He may have thought the high tempo may drop Hincapie, he may have thought that 145lb climber can outclimb 175lb classic specialist, he may have thought whatever....
The bottom line is he seemed quite happy to be at the front and at no time tried to force Hincapie to take the lead. It was a simple enough gamble - either he can outclimb Hincapie, or he can't and then Hincapie will take the sprint, or maybe he won't. Musette agrees with you that Hincapie didn't do work at the front, so can we let this die? Otherwise I might think you are obsessed with musette or somehow upset by an american Disco rider taking a win today. Not that I would ever suspect that you see anything wrong with Hincapie's tactics!

 

[jitmo]

So a NASCAR driver who is drafting the first 497 miles is supposed to just stay there? Common sense to me. If George would have stayed on the wheel it would all be about how Periero tore him apart leaving him with no legs left. Does this nonsense ever cease? Congrats to BOTH men and thank you Hincappie.

 

[musette]

The bottom line is that Perreiro lost and is the first loser in the stage. Hincapie got DC's first non-TTT victory ever for an LA domestique in the Tour! And it was "perfect" (LA's reference to a perfect day) because he helped his team immensely from (1) crucially, being ready, in case LA and group caught them, to help LA and to combat the TM tactics of quick accelerations to shed DC domestiques (especially when Sevilla was also in the break for JU), (2) inducing other teams that were with LA group to chase, and (3) taking away any bonus points that LA competitors could hope to get if the LA group were to get to the finish in the first three positions.

 

[alienator]

Of course sitting on is a super tactic. And it may account for today's big win.

But it won't explain George climbing like a billy goat or TTing faster than Lance, et al....

Perhaps treatments of H2O2 really can clean out your vascular pipes????

Something is amiss here in these tour de Lances.

Of course you'd know this because of all the inside info you're privvy to, right? No? Maybe you think you know this because of the angst you feel from being a wannabe, bitter, ******?

What is it that you are contributing?

All are guilty as proclaimed by the rumor mill. The evil doctors and lab techs can always subvert the system. All hail the wise ones that know that everyone is a doper.

yeah, right.

 

[limerickman]

Oh, for gods sake, you guys just wouldn't let this one die!
I realize that you don't want to "diminish Hincapie's win" in any way, the only reason you keep posting here is to set musette straight on what she may.................

Crank - you've got to remember that she posts her version of what happened, rather than what actually transpired in the race.
Can't have her disinformation to be allowed to go unchallenged.