By George!!! WooHoo!!

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by Rudy, Jul 17, 2005.

  1. DmanSlam

    DmanSlam New Member

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    I'll just add that I read mussette's comment and tried to decipher the 'true meaning' too. :confused:

    Her's wouldn't be the first post to go astray or "blur", but it's all meant in good debate.

    :)

    The tactic by GH is common in racing and it's quite odd that it is being disputed. Does everyone race or used to race, on this board?

    GH's leader is in yellow, LA's intent was to win the stage (maybe) for Fabio. The goal and dynamics of a race can change as it unfolds. The outcome was a win-win for Disco.
     


  2. WINGNUTT

    WINGNUTT New Member

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    GH won fair and square. It might be a cheesy strategy to be in a break and refuse to do any work, but nonetheless it's a race strategy that worked on that day - it is after all a race, and GH's strategy on that day was superior. Of course, next time GH is in a break away with someone, it will be remembered that GH is a rider who will suck wind for a couple of hours, then sprint out of the draft in the final meters of the race, so nobody will trust him next time around. So in the long run, I don't think GH's strategy is the best one for someone looking to win consistently, but considering all he cared about was the one-day win, he doesn't care about those sorts of relationships. So bottom line, it was a good win, but he will never win that way again with that sort of cooperation from anybody.
     
  3. Chance3290

    Chance3290 New Member

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    Did you ever notice that this "Wheelsucker" issue only comes up whilst speaking of climbing. So Mr Hincapie didn't do his share of pulling. How much drafting do you do at 12-15k an hour, on that final climb, anyway? I don't recall seeing McEwen doing a lot of pulling during the first 150k+ of the flat stages. No one mentions that. TACTICS win stages.

    HHRUMPHH!! to Mr Hincapie.
     
  4. artemidorus

    artemidorus New Member

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    What promise is GH supposed to have made to OP? None that I noticed or know of. His tactics were appropriate both for his team and for himself and exactly analogous to those of McEwen, Hushovd etc.
     
  5. mitosis

    mitosis New Member

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    LOL. Yeah, McEwen wheel sucked to a stage vicory a few days ago.

    And no-one complained.

    Maybe because there was more than one other cyclist in the group he was in.

    Maybe because they were his own team and that is what they had planned to do.

    Maybe he didn't make an agreement to share the work and then not honour it.

    Beats me, maybe you can work it out. HaHaHa. :D
     
  6. Crankster

    Crankster New Member

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    So riddle me this - are you implying that:

    if there's more than one other cyclist in the group sucking off the wheels is acceptable, and it's only unacceptable if there's only two left? What about Vino and Botero? Wheening and Kloden? Would you want to discuss those and if not, why not?

    If McEwen's team didn't do any work at the front, like in some early stages, the win by him would be "dishonourable"?

    Finally, was there an agreement between GH and OP? Or did you read lips from TV coverage?
     
  7. Crankster

    Crankster New Member

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    Ain't it ironic?!

    I cannot wait in anticipiation of everyone who badmouthed tactics by GH two days earlier to come out and post the same angry messages about despicable tactics by OP today. And Vino and Wheening before that.
    Somehow I suspect it will never happen, revealing these posters as hypocrites who apply arbitrary and selective rules about what is fair and what is not.


    16:56 CEST 178.5km/2km to go
    2 km of hard riding for Evans, who will get no help from the rest of his breakaway mates. Mazzoleni is perhaps the only one who should help him, while the other two can (finally) use the excuse that they are protecting their GC riders from Evans. Also, Pereiro wants to win.

    16:56 CEST 179.5km/1km to go
    1 km to go and the situation is unchanged. Evans leads, with Mazzoleni, Pereiro, and Zandio on his wheel in that order. Probably no bonus seconds for Evans today either."


    From dailypeloton:



    3.5 km left. The peloton has chased the break back to 3' 22". This will contain Evans a bit. Evans is really driving this break, trying to keep the gap up. 2 km left. Evans is working alone at the front of this break. Nobody else is pulling through. They are saving it for the finish, leaving Evans to ride for his GC position.
    Final kilometer. Evans is out of the saddle, leading this out to the finish.

    From velonews:



    4:51 p.m. - With five kilometers to go, the four leaders are holding an advantage of 1:50 on the chase group.

    Evans is putting in the bulk of the work, today.

    4:52 p.m. - The leaders are within four kilometers of the finish.

    4:53 p.m. - The chase group is at 1:57 and the peloton is at 3:28.

    4:54 p.m. - Evans is driving hard. He's thinking more about GC than a stage win, today.

    4:55 p.m. - Evans has been at the front for 2km. He's pounding... but probably blowing his chance for a stage win.

    4:56 p.m. - With one kilometer remaining Evans is still driving hard.

    Pereiro is sneaking up.

    4:57 p.m. - Evans is pushing it hard, with the other three on his wheel... Now they go.
    ... and this time Pereiro gets the win. (and yes, we do see the irony)
     
  8. cheapie

    cheapie New Member

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    [flyer]he didn't need to pull because he's not doping like every member of disco![/flyer]
     
  9. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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    It'll never happen. There are two standards set for the riders in America's tour{TDF]. One for the Americans and the others for Euro's. Pereiro's ride will be "inspired!" The records will show he was "victorious." The others in the peloton will remember him as the one who won stage 16 of the TDF!!!!
    Wait !!!!! I should grasp the idea of a moral victory !!!!!! Back in my competitive days in the 1970's I jumped way too early in a crit and lost the prime sprint to a junior rider. But my early jump split the peloton. And with the "moral victory reasoning", that particular rider who won the prime and the race should be remembered for what he did!!!!! He was remembered all right . But the memories of Greg Lemond are winning the TDF 3 times. Not rhe fact that I jumped way too early and lost the prime. But I have my "moral victory."
     
  10. Crankster

    Crankster New Member

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    I am sure lack of posts about Pereiro from people who were quick to jump on Hincapie has nothing to do with their dislike of american Discovery team - perhaps they just don't like tall and lanky cyclists.

    Hmm. Wolfix, you seem like a bit less anti-Discovery than most people here. I am so tired of this nationality-based squabbles, perhaps you should leave for paceline.com or some other pro-Discovery site so we can form more of an invitation-only anti-Disco country club here and avoid people like you who are too quick to point out our own hypocrisy or bias. And if someone tells us otherwise we will tell them they have no idea what they are talking about and will ridicule them by personal attacks until they go away. Please don't let the truth interfere with our bias.
     
  11. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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    I'll be honest here. I have followed the TDF since 1969. I have always kept my nationalism thoughts out of it. I loved when Greg Lemond won and I love watching LA. But Ullrich/Knetemann/Zabel were my men. I do not dislike any rider who competes at the TDF. But this year , after being on this forum and seeing the anti-American views expressed has brought out the ugly side of me.... And reading posts attacking Americans because they have no knowledge of the sport makes me laugh. It seems to me that maybe Americans have some knowledge of the sport. Look at the TDF gc standings today. Look at the past 20 years of the TDF.....

    United States... 10 victories...
    ALL OF THE World....10 victories.

    If a person takes Limerick's opinion that the TDF is the most prestigious cycling event of the year , doesn;t it make sense that 10 out of 20 victories would make the United States the cycling power??? Of course "moral victories" are to be taken to be as good as real victories. With that thought,shouldn't Greg Lemond be tied with Hinault with 4 victories apiece??? All nonsense of course.
    After LA is gone I think I will turn my back on the TDF and Euro cycling. Some of the best US cycling occurs in July In Wisconsin at Superweek. You will find me there next year.
     
  12. rejobako

    rejobako New Member

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    I will miss watching LA compete in the race he covets. Those who obsess about how "boring" the Tour has become are missing what I believe is the distinct pleasure of watching a man dominate an event through meticulous preparation, fierce training, and shrewd tactical maneuvering. I guess appreciating the successful pursuit of excellence isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I have certainly enjoyed it. (Truth be told, I wanted a closer GC race like most everyone --- but the alternative isn't "boring"; merely a different kind of thrill.)

    All that being said, I'm not about to stop watching the TdF or the other traditional cycling events. (I like them all, although I confess a special appreciation for the grind of a grand Tour). I'd like to think that, with Armstrong gone, all of the pompous and arrogant types who have found it sacrelegious for a non-European to set records in their hallowed competition will be able to calm down and resume the enjoyment of watching cycling instead of gnashing their teeth because a sometimes boorish Texan is laying claim to being the greatest cyclist in the greatest event.

    And I'll also admit that, whereas I'm sure it won't be long before I get nostalgic about the Armstrong era of the TdF, I'm as excited as anyone about the possibilities for next year. With all the pressure moved from Lance's shoulders to his, will Basso prove to be a worthy sucessor? Will Valverde emerge as the next great Spanish TdF rider? What happens to Disco? Is Vino serious about moving over there? If so, are Bruyneel and the impulsive Vino a good match? Does Popo deliver on his great promise? Does Ullrich put in a herculean effort to win another TdF title to create personal bookends to Armstrong's record? What about Cunego? Can we have Zabel back in the Tour? Do all the new GC favorites "pull a Lance" and skip the Giro to concentrate on the TdF?

    And of course, the most burning question of all for an American cycling fan -- will there be daily coverage of the TdF on US television now that the nouveau fans don't have Armstrong to slaver over? The possible answer to that question is scary, although I suppose watching via webcast would be OK.
     
  13. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    What yer ticker tape edition above fails to mention is the what actually happened on todays stage (stage 16 Moreunx-Pau).

    Pereiro on the Col de Marie Blanque was in the LA/JU bunch some 2 mins 50secs behind a group containing riders like Mazzolini, Gilbert, Ludewig, which were trying to chase CE.

    4 times Pereiro tried to get away on that climb and was reeled in by GH/LA/JU group.
    With 4kms to go to the summit of the Marie Blanque, Pereiro got away by himself and chased the Mazzolini group.

    Descending the Marie Blanque, he managed to catch up with a group chasing CE, containing Mazzolini.
    As they climbed the Aubseque, CE still had a 3min lead over the Mazzolini group and a 6min lead over the LA/JU group.
    Pereiro and Mazzolini went away from the chasing group (Gilbert, Ludewig) and summited the Aubisque 47secs behind CE.

    In the last 50kms, Pereiro, Mazzolini, chased CE and then caught him and were joined by Flecha, Gilbert, Ludewig, Landio.

    So yer account tells half the story of what OP did on that stage.
    He didn't get in to a breakaway and stay there all day - as GH did last Sunday.
    OP worked from the Marie Blanque and up the Aubisque to get himself in to position to win today.

    Pereiro's win was an honourable win.
     
  14. tcklyde

    tcklyde New Member

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    I'm with you on this. Next year holds a lot of excitiing possibilities -- and not only because LA is gone. Also because Valverde and Cunego will be there. A new generation is here.
     
  15. mitosis

    mitosis New Member

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    You have just proved youself to be stupid. Firstly for wasting time putting together the above post as if it will convince anyone of your point of view. Secondly because you cannot undertand the difference between the two stage finishes.

    Evans (to my great displeasure) was not going for the stage win (you probably don't appreciate the significance of this), there was no agreement between the riders to share the load, Pereiro worked hard earlier in the day, Pereiro recovered from a puncture and there were four riders in the group (using your logic three of them deserve your ridicule not just Pereiro).

    And while you were apparently exploding with anger over this apparent irony, Disco was happy to sit on Tmobile 5 minutes back. Not that there is a problem with that but with your understanding of bike racing it might just be enough to send you off to write another frenzied post.

    Keep hanging around this forum. You are a slow learner but there is hope for you. :D
     
  16. sunman

    sunman New Member

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    OK Mitosis, don't give yourself that much credit.
    If you can fault Crankster for not looking back far enough to make a fair assessment, then I can do the same with you. Let's look back 18 days or for that matter, 7 years. It is because of riders like George Hincapie that LA is as successful as he is in the Tour. Thanks to the efforts of GH over the last 18 days of this race, LA and Discovery were in a position to enable George to maximize his chances for a stage victory. This didn't happen in a one day bubble, this is the culmination of years of work, plus a little luck.
     
  17. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I don't think Mitosis or anyone else for that matter has an issue with GH winning
    a TDF stage.
    Every domestique deserves their day in the sun.
    It was the way in which GH appeared to win the stage that is at issue here.
     
  18. cheapie

    cheapie New Member

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    dude. that's bs. all of your post re: this subject have shown a resentment of GH. his job was simply to control the breakaway. he shook off the drop attempts and powered away at the end. it encumbent upon riders with shared goals to share the work. the group wanted to break away, gh didn't. in the last part of the race, P was trying to get away from the break and drop GH. GH didn't have a vested interest in helping this happen.

    let it go. it was freakin' contest and the best rider/thinker won.
     
  19. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Yep - the stage result stands.
     
  20. cheapie

    cheapie New Member

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    how is it that every time i post you respond right away? what time is it on the other side of the pond?
     
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