cadel's comments after stage 15



Klodifan

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Aug 26, 2006
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so, he was basically discouraged. made some comments about not being on a team that can afford top riders to support him during the tough climbs. but still satisfied that he is riding his best tour ever even if he thinks a podium spot is getting out of reach. asked about astana's tactics today, he was matter of fact. said despite vino's win, they didnt ride well today and basically gave up the tour. thoughts? validity in the money issue?
 
Klodifan said:
so, he was basically discouraged. made some comments about not being on a team that can afford top riders to support him during the tough climbs. but still satisfied that he is riding his best tour ever even if he thinks a podium spot is getting out of reach. asked about astana's tactics today, he was matter of fact. said despite vino's win, they didnt ride well today and basically gave up the tour. thoughts? validity in the money issue?
The team is Robbie first, Cadel second. Cadel has never done anything to upset those priorities.
 
snood said:
The team is Robbie first, Cadel second. Cadel has never done anything to upset those priorities.
I dont think any of us can truly understand whether Astana's tactics were right or otherwise.

I would have thought stage wins rate higher than 3rd on the GC which might be the best Kloden can hope for - so why go for 3rd when you can get the glory. Maybe Kloden knew he did not have it in him to attack Ras/Contador?

Assuming Cadel is close enough to guess better than we can the answers to these questions, I think his comments on Astana probably have some validity.

I definitely agree with Cadel on his frustration at the lack of team support. Chris Horner is riding well, but he is no Boogerd or Popo - he is always at the rear of the group.

Sure, build the team around Robbie, but surely one more quality climber to help Cadel would go a long way? There are six "flat road" riders out there doing little more than act as advertising signs for Predictor Lotto. They have not even been in breakaways.

That being said, I dont think that would mean the difference between Cadel coming 3rd and 2nd or 1st (as Cadel himself basically admits). He has ridden to his potential and with luck might get 3rd (due respect to Kloden). He has certainly ridden a better race than the last two years.
 
Andrew76 said:
I dont think any of us can truly understand whether Astana's tactics were right or otherwise.

I would have thought stage wins rate higher than 3rd on the GC which might be the best Kloden can hope for - so why go for 3rd when you can get the glory. Maybe Kloden knew he did not have it in him to attack Ras/Contador?

Assuming Cadel is close enough to guess better than we can the answers to these questions, I think his comments on Astana probably have some validity.

I definitely agree with Cadel on his frustration at the lack of team support. Chris Horner is riding well, but he is no Boogerd or Popo - he is always at the rear of the group.

Sure, build the team around Robbie, but surely one more quality climber to help Cadel would go a long way? There are six "flat road" riders out there doing little more than act as advertising signs for Predictor Lotto. They have not even been in breakaways.

That being said, I dont think that would mean the difference between Cadel coming 3rd and 2nd or 1st (as Cadel himself basically admits). He has ridden to his potential and with luck might get 3rd (due respect to Kloden). He has certainly ridden a better race than the last two years.
the rode poorly in the first stage letting Rass out of sight. It was obvious he had been doing work on his tt.

I think he prologue was a softpedal bluff also. Gave him enough leeway to go up the road. It would have been interesting if Rogers followed him, and timetrialled like Vino, and climbed like Cadel.

Just to confirm, I think he would have timetrialled like Kashechkin, and climbed like Kashechkin, so he would have been about where Cadel is now had he hung on to Rassmussen's wheel in the first stage.

I think Cadel would be about 60 seconds better off, perhaps even 2 minutes better off, if he had Sastre in his team to work for him.

But Evans has never proved to be superior to the second tier contenders, like Leipheimer, Sastre, Menchov, so he could never demand them to work for him. If they came to Predictor they would be co-leaders.

Evans needs Devolder and Heras, and Horner and Cioni need 2 year contracts on guaranteed money, and told to forget about their early season.

Heras last man, Devolder second last, then Horner, and Cioni. Evans needs a tempo climbing, he cannot really go with those damn lightweights when they attack left and right. He has done credibly, and should not be criticised for not attacking when he went over his limit just to defend. Everyone does what they can.

with a team like
Evans
Heras
Devolder
Horner
Cioni
Vansummeren
Hoste
Vansevenant
Mcewen

Vansevenant is the bidon carrier, and Hoste positions Mcewen for the sprint at 3km. Mcewen returns to his late 90's style and pilots himself by following wheels. As we saw this year, Mcewen would have been better hanging on wheels than using Freddie, and Rodriguez was waiting for the perfect opening and slingshot, and the leadout never eventuated. Mcewen was left 12 wheel with 300 to go, and in the pack.

Conceded, Mcewen and Freddie were suffering from injuries. Hoste can easily put Mcewen on Boonen's wheel in the last 10 km, and if anyone can hold an adversaries wheel, Mcewen can. The way I see it, the team needed another one, or atleast 2 fast men, like Mcgee and Renshaw, just to put Freddie in a position to leadout Mcewen. There is just too much depth. If you have the requisite strength, you are better to go by yourself like Hunter. Hunter would be worse with a leadout man, because it would be like Freddie, with less strength, grasping for wheels at the back. Hunter is strong enough to get great position, and then strong enough to sprint, albeit, with some of his kick sapped.
 
Klodifan said:
so, he was basically discouraged. made some comments about not being on a team that can afford top riders to support him during the tough climbs. but still satisfied that he is riding his best tour ever even if he thinks a podium spot is getting out of reach. asked about astana's tactics today, he was matter of fact. said despite vino's win, they didnt ride well today and basically gave up the tour. thoughts? validity in the money issue?
Those comments sound fair enough.
Discouraged is probably the best word.

Pred-Lott may have a smaller budget than others but they also have a couple of different goals. So it stands to reason that full team support is difficult especially in the mountains where the sprinter support guys are of little help back in the autobus. He is riding well and I hope he gets on the podium, first Aussie to do so. The top step was always going to be a tall order with the team structure. Which is one reason I would say is why for him marking attacks is better than attacking. If by chance he got away and got the Yellow Jersey back in the Alps, there is no way Pred-Lotto could have defend it. He would have got fried. His best chance I think was to get it late in the tour. ie:last mountain stage or TT. A podium spot is possible for him if he can ride well and not blow out on the last mtn stage.
Never know what can happen in this race.

His answer regarding Astana I think it quite valid. He is riding along side them everyday. He has to pay attention to his opposition, look, listen & learning so he can combat them.
So for a rider such as Cadel to say that, I'd take it for being as close to the mark as we will get. (he probably asked Klodi, are they for real, what are they doing? :p )
 
According to the official LeTour website Predictor-Lotto has a budget of 6 million Euro, certainly not one of the biggest, but frankly aside from Horner there is not much climbing support for Cadel. As Bernard Hinault says on that same info page the team was built around Robbie, pure and simple. Cadel is very much a secondary consideration. However, the way the top two climbers are going I don't think Cadel can do better than 3rd unless he reduces his losses tomorrow and has a very good final TT. I'm hoping he'll have a good ride on the Aubisque as he did in 2005, but Contador and Ras look way too strong, for whatever reason.
 
Astana gave up on Kloden's Tour chances a long time ago. If he hadn't been forced to drop back on stage 8 for Vino, he'd have been 50 seconds or so behind Rasmussen going into the TT. He'd likely be in yellow. And yesterday, if Vino had dropped back to help him instead of going for the stage victory, Kloden might have saved himself 40-50 seconds. There was also another stage (can't remember it clearly) where Kaschekin didn't help out Kloden. Kloden should have stayed on T-Mobile.

As for Evans, he can complain all he wants but he's losing time not because he's without a strong team but because he couldn't accelerate multiple times on the mountain. He was drafting perfectly fine while Rabo/Disco pushed up the tempo on the mountain. When Ras/Cont started their many, many attacks, teammates are of no help -- you have to answer it yourself. He could do so only partially.
 
If Evans were as strong as he thinks, another team certainly would've picked him up as leader. CSC certainly needed one, but maybe Riis sees something in him he doesn't like...
 
I think Cadel is a good and consistent rider but not a spectacular one. Up to now, I think he rode his best TdF ever, but has little to show. He's an 'almost' for the ITT and mountain stages. He won't be allowed to escape on rolling or flat stages. As a sponsor, I'd rather back a spectacular but inconsistent rider such as Vino, possibly Sastre, Mayo etc. than a type such as Leipheimer or Evans. There is more publicity in great wins and spectacular defeats than in constant wheelsucking. If you don't believe me, read the prediction threads or the 'Should Cadel be put down' thread. See who gets the love. A third place in GC is much less worth in terms of publicity than Vino's two stage wins plus the spectacular blow-up in between, and the drama around his fall in the first week.
 
fscyclist said:
If Evans were as strong as he thinks, another team certainly would've picked him up as leader. CSC certainly needed one, but maybe Riis sees something in him he doesn't like...
That's the key right there. Evans can complain about the lack of support, but it is ultimately his own fault. If he were more serious about improving his placing in the Tour he would have moved to a team that would have supported him.

Levi went back to Disco. Evans is a better GT rider that Leipheimer, plus he is a natural English speaker and Americans generally like Aussies. If I were Bruyneel I would rather have Evans than Leipheimer. Why didn't Evans make the move to Disco? There was a two year window for him to do this. Contracts can be broken.
 
Well, give recent events (e.g. Vinos "spectacular" sponsors-dream performance in the ITT/Stage15 and Ras on the moo juice) it wouldn't surprise me if in a couple of months Evans ends up being the default TDF winner, ala Pereiro.

I can't even look my Dad in the eye who told me in most uncertain terms before the TDF that cycling was the dirtiest sport there is. As much as I hate to admit it, the old man is right.
 
fscyclist said:
If Evans were as strong as he thinks, another team certainly would've picked him up as leader. CSC certainly needed one, but maybe Riis sees something in him he doesn't like...
Evan's was offered contracts from some of the big teams before he left T-mobile but he wasn't guaranteed team leadership status for the Tour which is fair enough. That's the reason he went to Lotto.
 
Klodifan said:
so, he was basically discouraged. made some comments about not being on a team that can afford top riders to support him during the tough climbs. but still satisfied that he is riding his best tour ever even if he thinks a podium spot is getting out of reach. asked about astana's tactics today, he was matter of fact. said despite vino's win, they didnt ride well today and basically gave up the tour. thoughts? validity in the money issue?
He is the biggest wheelsucking ***** in cycling, period.
 
thoughtforfood said:
He is the biggest wheelsucking ***** in cycling, period.

Wheelsucking pussies don't win long time trials nor do they set the fastest time up the main climb (he is now the winner of the TT last Sat).
 
Eagle of Toledo said:
Wheelsucking pussies don't win long time trials nor do they set the fastest time up the main climb (he is now the winner of the TT last Sat).
Oops, you are right, should have read "doping wheelsucking *****." Thanks for pointing out my error.:eek:
 
Eagle of Toledo said:
Wheelsucking pussies don't win long time trials nor do they set the fastest time up the main climb (he is now the winner of the TT last Sat).
I mean please......"<snivel, snivel>...noody closes my gaps, even when I am the one who causes the gap....<sniff>....my team sucks......they let those guys attack me....what do they expect me to do....."

One of the worst wheelsuckers I have ever seen. Just look at what other riders do to him when he is in their group. They attack to try to drop him. Look at Sastre and Levi the other day, they just wanted to get rid of him....and they did.
 
heinkel12 said:
Evan's was offered contracts from some of the big teams before he left T-mobile but he wasn't guaranteed team leadership status for the Tour which is fair enough. That's the reason he went to Lotto.
He's been at Lotto for a while. He could've found another team if one wanted him. Fact is, they don't. There's probably a reason for that.
 
thoughtforfood said:
I mean please......"<snivel, snivel>...noody closes my gaps, even when I am the one who causes the gap....<sniff>....my team sucks......they let those guys attack me....what do they expect me to do....."

One of the worst wheelsuckers I have ever seen. Just look at what other riders do to him when he is in their group. They attack to try to drop him. Look at Sastre and Levi the other day, they just wanted to get rid of him....and they did.
+1. He was at T-mobile during the height of their doping program but the aussies refuse to believe he ever partook.