Caffeine & ephedrine does it helps in training?

Discussion in 'Health Nutrition and Supplements' started by pikus, Apr 7, 2004.

  1. pikus

    pikus New Member

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    last week I started to use ephedrine +caffeine during my training
    I want to know wheter it improves my performance
    I am taking only 30 mg of ephedrine in every training
    I also want to know does it help me on the marathon where I 'll be probably riding 7 hours(140km) but when I 'll take ephedrine 2 hours before end of race
     
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  2. Duckwah

    Duckwah New Member

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    From a pharmacological point of view yes it works but...

    1. Its illegal to use in races and if you are caught using it in races or training you will get suspended. Its also highly unethical.

    2. Its a bit dangerous to stack stimulants, it can lead to heart rate problems, dizzyness and shaking.

    3. coming down from a hit in the middle of a stage would be a serious bonk

    so in summary, don't do it!!!

    I looked into this a lot when I was at uni doing chemistry and honestly its too risky
     
  3. Cowboyathlete

    Cowboyathlete New Member

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    Amen to #2. I often take Bronkaid because I have asthma. At times Bronkaid is the final trick I need to get rid of respiratory crud that my other meds will not get. However, ephedrine can also keep my blood pressure elevated, so I really have to watch it.
     
  4. pikus

    pikus New Member

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    and what when I'll take caffeine before the marathon,and 2 hours before the end of the race I'll take 50 mg of ephedrine
    is this a better way??
     
  5. steve

    steve Administrator
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    Hi

    If your taking 7 hours to ride 140km you'd get more out of a well thought out training program than doping up.

    cheers
     
  6. pikus

    pikus New Member

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    ok and what when I'll be riding 6 hours ,with average about 25km/h ,I want normal answer to my question ,not remarks about my performance level :confused: :)
     
  7. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    i'll agree with Steve, any slight benefit you may get from a banned drug (ephedrine) will be a lot less than the benefit you get from training well and improving naturally.

    ephedrine is a banned drug, and is therefore cheating.

    it's also potentially dangerous, so don't do it.

    ric
     
  8. epheme

    epheme New Member

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    i would seriously stay away from both those drugs, caffeine dehydrates you so it may be good enough where you are training, doing short term interval work when you are feeling sluggish. I don't think it has a place on race day.

    ephedra is another matter...about five years ago i took it unknowingly because it was in a supplement...made me all dizzy and lightheaded, and my heart was racing. not sure of the dose, but i am scared of the stuff. i would think that exercising of any sort (racing, training, whatever) would be made more dangerous due to the elevated heart rate...i mean it's your call but i would stay away from it.

     
  9. dhk

    dhk New Member

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    Isn't ephedrine is now banned in the US as a supplement as result of the number of deaths it has caused. Believe products had to come off the shelves earlier this month. But I'm sure it's still widely-available.

    Why anyone would want to take a dangerous stimulant to raise HR and blood pressure for training is beyond me.
     
  10. Cowboyathlete

    Cowboyathlete New Member

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    Ephedra as a dietary supplement is banned. However, over the counter drugs such as Bronkaid tablets and Primatene tablets, which contain ephedrine sulfate, are still legal.
     
  11. pikus

    pikus New Member

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    ok now i don't take this ephedrine ,but I have a race in teh begining of may and I want to know what can happen when I 'll take this ephedrine 2 hours before the marathon ,and on the start of the marathon I'll take caffeine(marathon lasts about 6 hours)
     
  12. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    STAY AWAY FROM IT. it's a banned drug, you'll test positive and it's CHEATING.

    Ric
     
  13. Roadie_scum

    Roadie_scum New Member

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    If you take ephedrine before the marathon, it is unlikely you will substantially enhance your performance, but you may experience any of the following reported adverse outcomes:

    Case #1. "dizzy spells that progressed to involve numbness of L arm & forehead, weakness of both legs, SOB, and shaky feelings", "dizziness & tachycardia".

    Case #2. Healthy 23 yo cardiac arrest, lacerated coronary (partial dissection) & hematoma.

    Case #3. Heat stroke, chest and back pain, hyperthermia and tachycardia while exercising.

    Taken from the FDA's summary of adverse outcomes from supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids. Cited at http://www.vitacost.com/ephedrabad/fda2.html.

    Does that clear things up for you?

    It's not that people on this forum are unwilling to answer your questions, are so moralistic we won't help you cheat, or anything like that. It's that ephedrine is of little benefit, while being quite dangerous. Caffeine on the other hand is fine. There is a fair bit of literature on its use in sport. The consensus is that having some caffeine will help your performance, particularly if you train without it for a little while before your race. However, the improvement is again small, and their is no dose-response relationship. That is, you will do a (small) bit better for having some caffeine in your system (maybe), but that doesn't mean having a lot of caffeine will make you much better. It won't.

    If you want to know more about caffeine there is already a thread on the Health, Nutrition and Supplements forum already; just search for caffeine, and perhaps roadie_scum too since I started it, and you'll find it.
     
  14. firegooroo

    firegooroo New Member

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    Dude, what is your problem. People are trying to help you, and you come back with more insane questions. As a person in the medical field and from someone that HAS taken ephedrine and caffeine let me begin by telling you that to start it is wrong, and wrong for all of the obvious reasons "CHEATING".

    Secondly it is very bad for your health. WHY? I'll tell you why, the ephedrine will increase your heart rate and body tempature will increase as well with that the pressure build up in the arteries and your veins causing your blood pressure to increase causing dizziness due to pressure in your brain causing lack of oxygen reaching your brain because of the heart rate and blood pressure. This is only one effect, another effect is that it will decrease your performance in the long run. I noticed that after I had stopped taking ephedrine I performed much better.

    Ephedrine is a major contributing factor in the deaths of many athletes, some actual death causes are Myocardial infarcts (heart attack), Stroke, heat stroke, aneurysm and the list can go on. You want to mix it with caffeine, now that is a double wammy. Are you nuts or do you just want to die. I took one day ephedrine and since my body kind of got use to it I had forgotten about it and had some coffee. It was the most horrible feeling in the world. I thought my heart was going to jump out of my chest and I ended up with a migrane headache. This occured in a time where I was the best shape ever and I was able to hang through it.

    Do yourself a favor stop thinking of the those to compounds and start working harder and longer and truely enjoy the fruits of your victory because YOU did it and not some chemical in your body.

    Now there is your answer and don't ask another stupid question like this one. Get educated, get trained, and work hard. Good luck in your marathon. :cool:
     
  15. belfast-biker

    belfast-biker New Member

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    It wasn't banned because of the number of deaths. Compared to the number of times its used, the number of deaths have been TINY, and there has been other factors in the vast majority of cases. Ephedrine and ECA stacks have proved to be one of the most effective and safe weight loss drugs. When you compare deaths from ephedrine vs. deaths from obesity, then the reasons for banning ephedrine become even more stupid.

    Take alcohol, tobacco, aspirin, paracetemol.... and any one of a thousand other drugs, and you'll see more deaths.

    In some cases, drastically more. Alcohol and Tobacco just kill less quickly, less sensationally.
     
  16. Roadie_scum

    Roadie_scum New Member

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    Actually, it was banned in the US due to the number of deaths (and other adverse outcomes), though you might quibble with the reasoning of the FDA. The exact words the FDA used were

    "because they [ephedra/ephedrine alkaloids] present an unreasonable risk of illness or injury under the conditions of use recommended or suggested in labeling [in dietary supplements such as weight loss products]"
    Fed Regist. 2004
    Feb 11;69(28):6787-854.

    Point 1. (from first principles) Ephedrine use is a far less common condition than obesity so your statistics don't stack up (not that you have actually presented any - perhaps you should do this so we can assess your claims). And obese people are more likely to suffer myocardial infraction, which is sometimes caused by ephedrine. I don't think it's a great idea to go around combining risk factors.

    Point 2. The literature is against you (seriously and unequivocally).

    "Weight loss and athletic performance appear to be only modestly improved, for short durations, in the setting of large numbers of (some serious) adverse event reports."

    Safety concerns regarding ephedrine-type alkaloid-containing dietary supplements. Miller SC.
    Mil Med. 2004 Feb;169(2):87-93.

    You can also find reviews like "bad news for dieters : a focus on ephedrine" and "ephedrine use is a risky business".

    Just to reiterate... "modest improvements" "large numbers" of adverse events.

    Point 3. Being the most safe and effective of the weight loss drugs is not exactly a distinguished position. Weight loss is attained by negative calorie balance, not taking drugs. (Drugs can marginally effect metabolic rate, but the difference isn't big enough to clinically indicate them).

    I don't think excessive use of alcohol would be promoted by anyone on this forum, nor would tobacco use.

    As a social drinker and non-smoker, I'd still rather be killed slowly over the course of my life than quickly and sensationally... just a thought, though not the primary reason I take exception to your post.

    All the things you've pointed to have more deaths because of wider usage, or misuse. Ephedrine can't be used 'safely' - the risk factors for adverse outcomes aren't clear enough. Deaths from NSAIDS (like aspirin) tend to occur when used frequently over the long term, not when used in the manner clinically indicated. Same for paracetomol.

    I think measures that combat obesity are a good idea too, but the best of these is increased light aerobic activity (which has health benefits beyond reduced weight), combined with reduced calorie intake (if the exercise doesn't take you into a negative calorie balance already).

    Dosing up people who are likely to already have cardiac trouble with a stimulant that puts significant stress on the heart is, in equal measures, dangerous and stupid. Especially when the treatment for obesity is so (medically) clear and simple. (I say "medically" to avoid belittling the difficulty people have losing weight - medically the solution is clear, psychologically and practically it can be very hard).

    Hmmm... lacerated coronary...
     
  17. belfast-biker

    belfast-biker New Member

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    Why don'tyou list the number of deaths due to:

    1. ephedrine
    2. aspirin
    3. tobacco
    4. alcohol


    And if the FDA's REAL reason for the ban was the number of deaths, they'd have banned the others years ago.
     
  18. Roadie_scum

    Roadie_scum New Member

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    You have just completely ignored the reasoning set out in my post. Feel free to contest the meaning of published data, or to add in other evidence to be assessed, but there is no logic to what you seem to be suggesting here.

    Ephedrine is banned because of a high risk of adverse outcomes when used correctly. Aspirin and paracetomol are not dangerous when used correctly, and aspirin in particular can be lifesaving (eg by preventing clotting in some patients). The drugs other than ephedrine you mentioned are more widely used, so the pure number of deaths is a meaningless and incomparable statistic. Tobacco and alcohol are drugs of recreation and addiction - government policy towards these is another very different topic, with nothing to do with whether or not ephedrine is clinically indicated for weight loss (no) or performance enhancement (no). This is because alcohol and tobacco aren't clinically indicated for anything.

    The risks associated with ephedrine are worth bearing in certain situations, but these are few, and do not include weight loss or performance enhancement.
     
  19. belfast-biker

    belfast-biker New Member

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    Used correctly, or incorrectly, recreationally or not, ephedrine kills a tiny amount of people, yet the FDA felt it necessary to ban it, and ignore other drugs like the ones that I mentioned.

    Hypocritical and stupid.
     
  20. Roadie_scum

    Roadie_scum New Member

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    Using ephedrine for weight loss as you suggested is of minimal benefit and quite risky. The other things you mentioned (apart from alcohol and tobacco which are completely different issues) have clinical benefits which far outweigh the potential for negative effects.

    Tobacco and alcohol are social drugs and drugs of addiction. How we as a society treat them is a complex, interesting and difficult issue. It's not, however, relevant to whether or not something may be marketed as a supplement or used as a drug in a medical situation. Tobacco and alcohol are banned in the same way ephedrine is - you are certainly not allowed to market them as a supplement, and their use is actively discouraged. If anything, tobacco and alcohol have more stringent regulation than ephedrine - ephedrine is still available over the counter in some forms for some uses, whereas alcohol and tobacco both require presentation of ID , and sale by a licensed merchant.

    Deciding what to ban or regulate is difficult, but it's a calculus which we use every day. If I cross the road, I will attain the benefit of getting to the other side, but I might get killed. By your logic we should ban crossing the road - lots of deaths. However, there are also lots of incidence of road crossing, and there is a real benefit to getting to the other side - the calculus becomes more muddied. If the benefit is minimal or non-existent (as with performance enhancing or weight loss through ephedrine), there are clinical alternatives that are equally effective (training, diet and exercise), and the risk is material and substantial, the calculus is quite easy. The FDA made the right decision on the available data.

    No, and no.
     
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