Calf muscles - is it worth working on them?



acoggan said:
To take this thread off on a tangent: did anybody else recognize the parallels between Mills comments in these articles about weighted baseballs, and the argument that I've put forth in the article below?

http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/setraining

Well, I would have this to say about your paper right off the bat. You wrote: "Specifically, QA was used to assess the two most plausible physiological mechanisms by which SE training could potentially be beneficial, i.e., 1) as a form of on-the-bike resistance training that results in muscular hypertrophy and thus possibly increases maximal neuromuscular power, or 2) as a means of enhancing the recruitment of type II (fast twitch) motor units during prolonged bouts of exercise, thus improving their resistance to fatigue via increases in mitochondrial content, capillarization, etc."

Ugh, your analysis is incomplete as there are other plausible benefits from this kind of training. Perhaps the rider will learn that a lower cadence results in more speed because the rider is riding at a more efficient cadence for him. Or, perhaps the rider can better unweight on the upstroke at a lower cadence contributing to improved efficiency, or both. Of course, I know your bias is that pedaling style is unrelated to efficiency, but recognize that for what it is, bias. Such has never been proven.

I think the evidence is quite clear that most riders ride at cadences that are above the most efficient cadence for them, probably in part because they are trying to emulate the pros, such as Lance, most of whom are riding at 100 to 150 watts more power. Lance rides at a cadence of 100 so the presume they should be also. Unless they train like Lance and are his physiological equal they probably should not be racing like Lance if they want to optimize their own performance.
 
Billsworld said:
Awsome piece


Alas, the REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE of some more knowledgeable coaches along with hundreds, probably thousands of racers and at least one study mentioned here recently provide ample support for SE/SFR training.
 
acoggan said:
To take this thread off on a tangent: did anybody else recognize the parallels between Mills comments in these articles about weighted baseballs, and the argument that I've put forth in the article below?

http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/setraining

You wrote: "The sessions were performed on a Velodyne trainer (http://www.velodynesports.com) operating in ergometer (i.e., constant power) mode, with data for power and cadence recorded every 1 s using a carefully calibrated SRM Professional powermeter. To mimic the inertial load encountered when performing such intervals up a moderately steep hill, I used a 53x12 gear combination,"

Could you explain how and why you added the SRM and modified the chain rings of the Velodyne? Wasn't the accuracy of the Velodyne adequate for you. And, most people here don't realize the Velodyne doesn't care what gear you are in in ergometer mode. The pedal resistance depends only upon the cadence in that mode, nothing else. And, if you have modified the Velodyne to this gear combination you actually reduced the inertia of the system as the Velodyne comes standard with a 60 or 65 tooth chain ring I believe.
 
WarrenG said:
Alas, the REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE of some more knowledgeable coaches along with hundreds, probably thousands of racers and at least one study mentioned here recently provide ample support for SE/SFR training.

Alas, you miss the point: that article discusses whether or not training at an abnormally low cadence is likely to increase strength or neuromuscular power and/or enhance recruitment of type II fibers - period. Likewise, the results of Mason's experiment do not, in any way, contradict anything that I said - in fact, her results support my statements, which is why I cited her study.
 
Fday said:
You wrote: "The sessions were performed on a Velodyne trainer (http://www.velodynesports.com) operating in ergometer (i.e., constant power) mode, with data for power and cadence recorded every 1 s using a carefully calibrated SRM Professional powermeter. To mimic the inertial load encountered when performing such intervals up a moderately steep hill, I used a 53x12 gear combination,"

Could you explain how and why you added the SRM and modified the chain rings of the Velodyne? Wasn't the accuracy of the Velodyne adequate for you. And, most people here don't realize the Velodyne doesn't care what gear you are in in ergometer mode. The pedal resistance depends only upon the cadence in that mode, nothing else. And, if you have modified the Velodyne to this gear combination you actually reduced the inertia of the system as the Velodyne comes standard with a 60 or 65 tooth chain ring I believe.

You're confusing the Velodyne with the Velotron.
 
Fday said:
Well, I would have this to say about your paper right off the bat. You wrote: "Specifically, QA was used to assess the two most plausible physiological mechanisms by which SE training could potentially be beneficial, i.e., 1) as a form of on-the-bike resistance training that results in muscular hypertrophy and thus possibly increases maximal neuromuscular power, or 2) as a means of enhancing the recruitment of type II (fast twitch) motor units during prolonged bouts of exercise, thus improving their resistance to fatigue via increases in mitochondrial content, capillarization, etc."

Ugh, your analysis is incomplete as there are other plausible benefits from this kind of training. Perhaps the rider will learn that a lower cadence results in more speed because the rider is riding at a more efficient cadence for him.

Perhaps, but do you really have to regularly perform structured intervals at a cadence that is 50% of normal to figure out your optimal cadence? Wouldn't simply experimenting with more typical cadences during your regular training suffice?

Fday said:
Or, perhaps the rider can better unweight on the upstroke at a lower cadence contributing to improved efficiency, or both.

That is, in fact, why some coaches prescribe this form of training. However, based on the specificity principle and/or studies of motor learning, it is questionable whether learning to pedal differently at a very slow cadence would transfer well, if at all, to what you do when pedaling at a normal cadence. In any case, though, this isn't something that can be address using quadrant analysis, so I didn't discuss it.

Fday said:
Of course, I know your bias is that pedaling style is unrelated to efficiency, but recognize that for what it is, bias. Such has never been proven.

You're right, it hasn't been proven, because you can't prove a negative - only disprove one. That said, however, your general claim is incorrect, as, e.g., Coyle's data reveals that there is no relatiionship between the pattern of force application and efficiency (but a strong correlation between fiber type and efficiency).

Fday said:
I think the evidence is quite clear that most riders ride at cadences that are above the most efficient cadence for them, probably in part because they are trying to emulate the pros, such as Lance, most of whom are riding at 100 to 150 watts more power. Lance rides at a cadence of 100 so the presume they should be also. Unless they train like Lance and are his physiological equal they probably should not be racing like Lance if they want to optimize their own performance.

I'm not sure that I'd go so far as to say most riders are doing as you say, but I'm sure some, probably even many, are. As for the rest, I completely agree with you.
 
Wouldnt it make a lot more sense to just do the standing starts as part of a training week...cycle , whetever. Get the benifit of that type of training and blow off the SE and train?
 
WarrenG said:
Alas, the REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE of some more knowledgeable coaches along with hundreds, probably thousands of racers and at least one study mentioned here recently provide ample support for SE/SFR training.
I think we all went around on this merry go round a while back.?:) You never told me how you found out that I am too lazy to change a tire
 
acoggan said:
Perhaps, but do you really have to regularly perform structured intervals at a cadence that is 50% of normal to figure out your optimal cadence? Wouldn't simply experimenting with more typical cadences during your regular training suffice?

yes, experiementing with different cadences is the way to go, but few do that but coaches may be seeing benefit when they have their atheleted do this training and misinterpreting why the benefit is occurring.



acoggan said:
That is, in fact, why some coaches prescribe this form of training. However, based on the specificity principle and/or studies of motor learning, it is questionable whether learning to pedal differently at a very slow cadence would transfer well, if at all, to what you do when pedaling at a normal cadence. In any case, though, this isn't something that can be address using quadrant analysis, so I didn't discuss it.

But, you said you were addressing the plausible reasons this could be effective. Anyone reading this paper would think there are no other plausible explanations why this might be effective. That was my criticism.


acoggan said:
You're right, it hasn't been proven, because you can't prove a negative - only disprove one. That said, however, your general claim is incorrect, as, e.g., Coyle's data reveals that there is no relatiionship between the pattern of force application and efficiency (but a strong correlation between fiber type and efficiency).

Well, Luttrell made a start at trying to disprove this. I, again, think you are reading too much into Coyles data. Coyle made no such claim in the paper, nor, if I remember right, should he, since he didn't measure efficiency or fiber type in these riders.

acoggan said:
I'm not sure that I'd go so far as to say most riders are doing as you say, but I'm sure some, probably even many, are. As for the rest, I completely agree with you.

At least we, finally, agree on something.:)
 
kmavm said:
...and it turns out most of them are just as hopelessly misguided as those who attempt to learn to "peddle better."

http://www.pitching.com/article_18.php
http://www.pitchingrebel.com/dick_mills_the_pitching_r/2004/11/index.html

It's not that learning to pitch baseball isn't skill-based; however, much of what passes for "training" of this skill is wasted time. Just because lots of people do something doesn't mean it helps. Just because people who are good at X believe that training activity Y helped make them good at X doesn't make it so.
I've just got to point out what a dork I feel like for writing "peddle" instead of "pedal", like, six million times in this thread. I'm totally the sort of person to jump all over someone for that kind of thing, too...
 
kmavm said:
I've just got to point out what a dork I feel like for writing "peddle" instead of "pedal", like, six million times in this thread. I'm totally the sort of person to jump all over someone for that kind of thing, too...

i almost PMed you about it... but, i'm last person to involve the grammar police!

ric
 
Fday said:
yes, experiementing with different cadences is the way to go, but few do that but coaches may be seeing benefit when they have their atheleted do this training and misinterpreting why the benefit is occurring.

But, you said you were addressing the plausible reasons this could be effective. Anyone reading this paper would think there are no other plausible explanations why this might be effective. That was my criticism.

My intent was to use quadrant analysis to address what I felt were the two most plausible reasons why, from a physiological perspective, strength endurance training might be deemed desirable. To experiment with lower cadences or to practice "pedaling in circles" (albeit very slowly) might be other reasons why people perform this type of training, but they aren't addressable using quadrant analysis, nor are they as plausible as the two mechanisms that I did discuss.

Fday said:
I, again, think you are reading too much into Coyles data. Coyle made no such claim in the paper, nor, if I remember right, should he, since he didn't measure efficiency or fiber type in these riders.

Coyle did in fact measure the power and VO2 (from which measurements efficiency is calculated, as you know) of the subjects in the 1991 paper, i.e., the same subjects for whom the force pedal data were obtained. There was no relationship between any of the biomechanical variables and efficiency.
 
Fday said:
I was trying to design a human powered vehicle with the smallest frontal area possible that would incorporate the best aerdynamic shape possible. My idea required independent drive and I was playing around trying to figure out how to best do the necessary dual freewheel design when the lightbulb went on that these might be a good training device. Three months later after doing my usual rides with them instead of regular cranks I was riding about 3 miles an hour faster than I ever had before on my little training loop so I looked into whether the idea could be patented. It could be. So here I am.


" when the lightbulb went on that these might be a good training device" , at that time how did you believe they could assist in training, or did you just make the cranks and then try and find a use for them ?
 
Billsworld said:
Wouldnt it make a lot more sense to just do the standing starts as part of a training week...cycle , whetever. Get the benifit of that type of training and blow off the SE and train?

The SE/SFR training and standing starts each address different aspects of your fitness.

I noticed an interesting thing this season when I started doing my uphill sprints immediately before the SFR intervals. I am trashed when I finish the uphill sprints, but after riding easy for about 7-8 minutes I can do the SFR intervals. In previous years the first few SFR intervals weren't hard at all, and it wasn't until the 5th-7th of these that I felt much stress/strain. Now, by doing the uphill sprints right before the SFR the early SFR intervals are high stress/strain along with the later intervals. When I mentioned this to my coach he said that was similar to the comments made by a guy on Quick-Step who is using the same format.

This increased stress has led to improvements (moreso than previous years) during other training efforts as well as during certain racing efforts.
 
Billsworld said:
I am not comfortable being in the position of debating Rick.(a little out matched:) )If Ac comes back Im outa here! I also wasnt disrespecting Rick. Lets face it, we are all lucky to be able to chat with these guys and pick their brains..
I agree.

Billsworld said:
I was responding to Warrens comment about lifting for peak power. That whole hypertrophy,or neuro adaption thing confused me anyhoo. So if your a roadie you lift for hypertrophy in the off season?......while your building a base.......soooo you can give it all back 6 weeks into your season. Can you induce hypertrophy while building a base(I doubt it) or do you take time off to just lift.? Then we all pretend that hypertrophy and neurological adaptation are mutually exclusive and that new "gym" muscle will function on the bike. I think it was AC that said his wife had some very good power increases by doing alot of standing starts. My power also improved alot after focusing on them. I think standing starts and short, cadence specific intervals with full recovery , could also induce hypertrophy as well as weights ,without any doubt that the power will translate to cycling.
I agree again. I misunderstood you, and thought you were talking specifically about track sprinters.
 
n crowley said:
" when the lightbulb went on that these might be a good training device" , at that time how did you believe they could assist in training, or did you just make the cranks and then try and find a use for them ?

No, when the lightbulb went on I tested them on myself to see if they might work. When I saw the improvement I then went to a local swap meet to see if I could recruit some testers. Got about 6. And did regular Conconi testing. Few rode them exclusively and only two subjects actually continued on them to the point that they were able to complete a Conconi test using the PC's to compare to their pre PC conconi test. Both of these subjects saw substantial improvement (260 to 380 watts for one in 6 months and 440 to 520 watts in 9 months for the other). Several of the other subjects saw typical efficiency improvements at low powers in a few months (higher power at the same HR) but were unable to get to where they could get their HR up to their previous max and they quit because we were doing this during the racing season.

Anyhow, it was not until I had this kind of data did I feel I could honestly market them and make any claims. At the outset, I had no inkling the numbers would be this high.
 
Fday said:
No, when the lightbulb went on I tested them on myself to see if they might work. When I saw the improvement I then went to a local swap meet to see if I could recruit some testers. Got about 6. And did regular Conconi testing. Few rode them exclusively and only two subjects actually continued on them to the point that they were able to complete a Conconi test using the PC's to compare to their pre PC conconi test. Both of these subjects saw substantial improvement (260 to 380 watts for one in 6 months and 440 to 520 watts in 9 months for the other).
Fday said:
Several of the other subjects saw typical efficiency improvements at low powers in a few months (higher power at the same HR) but were unable to get to where they could get their HR up to their previous max and they quit because we were doing this during the racing season.
Were they using a lower cadence then they had before? That may explain the lower heart rate.
 
whoawhoa said:
Were they using a lower cadence then they had before? That may explain the lower heart rate.

Possibly, I didn't control for HR in this evaluation, and a Conconi test typically lets the athlete self select for cadence, but I don't think it was a big thing because Luttrell controlled for this and saw big efficiency improvements in a short time