Calfee Setback/Geometry

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Royg, Jun 29, 2003.

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  1. Royg

    Royg Guest

    I took a test ride on a 56cm Calfee Luna Pro yesterday, and by the time I returned to the shop 20
    miles later I loved the ride and was about to order a frame. I asked for them to check the saddle
    fore/aft adjustment and what we found was that the Luna's geometry had too much setback for me -
    even with the saddle (Fizik Pave) all the way forward on a Thomson seatpost (whose clamps are
    about as far forward as road posts go), my knee was 1-2 cm behind the pedal spindle. When we
    checked my current ride (Tommasini 57 c-c with 56 c-c top tube), my knee was exactly over the
    spindle (Koobi seat was all the way forward on Amer Classic post). This was a rude awakening,
    since it was the first time I've encountered such fit problems although evidently my femur must be
    somewhat short (?).

    I'd appreciate hearing any comments about how unusual it it to come up against setback issues such
    as this. The Calfee custom frame option would carry a hefty premium ($2400 Tetra vs. $1300 Luna).
    Is there some fitting possibility I haven't thought of that might make the Luna frame geometry
    work for me?

    Thanks, Roy
     
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  2. Jim Martin

    Jim Martin Guest

    Irrelevant. See: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

    "RoyG" <royg at nospam> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I took a test ride on a 56cm Calfee Luna Pro yesterday, and by the time I returned to the shop 20
    > miles later I loved the ride and was about to
    order
    > a frame. I asked for them to check the saddle fore/aft adjustment and what we found was that
    > the Luna's geometry had too much setback for me - even with the saddle (Fizik Pave) all the
    > way forward on a Thomson seatpost (whose clamps are about as far forward as road posts go), my
    > knee was 1-2
    cm
     
  3. Ken

    Ken Guest

    "Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in news:bdmtgf$s1v$1 @terabinaries.xmission.com:
    > Irrelevant. See: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

    Do any other major frame builders believe Bontrager's "myth of KOPS" argument? He makes some good
    points, but I am no expert and am suspicious that KOPS is still widely recommended and no other
    popular framebuilders are overtly agreeing with Bontrager.
     
  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 12:57:30 -0000, "RoyG" <royg at nospam> wrote:

    >we found was that the Luna's geometry had too much setback for me - even

    >Is there some fitting possibility I haven't thought of that might make the Luna frame geometry
    >work for me?

    What about a set forward seatpost?

    Doug
     
  5. Royg

    Royg Guest

    "Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > Irrelevant. See: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

    I agree as an absolute rule it is irrelevant, but I have found purely from trial and error (on my
    Tommasini) that my preferred position is indeed with my knee directly over the pedal axle. Perhaps I
    didn't make this clear in my original posting.

    Roy

    >
    >
    > "RoyG" <royg at nospam> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > I took a test ride on a 56cm Calfee Luna Pro yesterday, and by the time
    I
    > > returned to the shop 20 miles later I loved the ride and was about to
    > order
    > > a frame. I asked for them to check the saddle fore/aft adjustment and
    what
    > > we found was that the Luna's geometry had too much setback for me - even with the saddle (Fizik
    > > Pave) all the way forward on a Thomson seatpost (whose clamps are about as far forward as road
    > > posts go), my knee was
    1-2
    > cm
     
  6. Bfd

    Bfd Guest

    One question I have is Does it matter? Your OP states: " I took a test ride on a 56cm Calfee Luna
    Pro yesterday, and by the time I returned to the shop 20 miles later I loved the ride". From that it
    appears your LBS did an excellent job of fitting you despite the fact that your position was
    different from your previous bike or that your knee was over the pedal. Since it seems like you like
    the Calfee; you "love the ride", and despite not having any "setback", it FITS YOU, forget the
    formulas and get it. Remember, if the bike doesn't fit, you won't ride. Despite what you formerly
    believe, the bike does fit, SO RIDE!....

    "RoyG" <royg at nospam> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    > > Irrelevant. See: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html
    >
    > I agree as an absolute rule it is irrelevant, but I have found purely from trial and error (on my
    > Tommasini) that my preferred position is indeed
    with
    > my knee directly over the pedal axle. Perhaps I didn't make this clear in my original posting.
    >
    > Roy
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > "RoyG" <royg at nospam> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > > I took a test ride on a 56cm Calfee Luna Pro yesterday, and by the
    time
    > I
    > > > returned to the shop 20 miles later I loved the ride and was about to
    > > order
    > > > a frame. I asked for them to check the saddle fore/aft adjustment and
    > what
    > > > we found was that the Luna's geometry had too much setback for me -
    even
    > > > with the saddle (Fizik Pave) all the way forward on a Thomson seatpost (whose clamps are about
    > > > as far forward as road posts go), my knee was
    > 1-2
    > > cm
    > >
    >
     
  7. Almost Fast

    Almost Fast Guest

    "RoyG" <royg at nospam> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > I took a test ride on a 56cm Calfee Luna Pro yesterday, and by the time I returned to the shop 20
    > miles later I loved the ride...
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    > ...Is there some fitting possibility I haven't thought of that might make the Luna frame geometry
    > work for me?

    Sounds like it already "works" for you.
     
  8. Chris Snell

    Chris Snell Guest

    > I'd appreciate hearing any comments about how unusual it it to come
    up
    > against setback issues such as this. The Calfee custom frame option
    would
    > carry a hefty premium ($2400 Tetra vs. $1300 Luna). Is there some
    fitting
    > possibility I haven't thought of that might make the Luna frame
    geometry
    > work for me?
    >
    > Thanks, Roy
    >
    Yep, Doug has it right, I'd try some of the triathlon type seat posts.

    from www.lhthomson.com :

    Q - How far does the set back seatpost set back? A - The 10° set back angle gives about 5/8 inch or
    16mm of set back.
    ______________________________________________________________
    Q - Can a setback seatpost be turned around and used as a "set forward" seatpost? A - Yes, the
    setback seatpost can be used as a set forward seatpost. No modifications are necessary. The forward
    direction or set forward works well for triathalon bikes.

    - Chris.
     
  9. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "RoyG" <royg at nospam> wrote:

    >I'd appreciate hearing any comments about how unusual it it to come up against setback issues such
    >as this. The Calfee custom frame option would carry a hefty premium ($2400 Tetra vs. $1300 Luna).
    >Is there some fitting possibility I haven't thought of that might make the Luna frame geometry
    >work for me?

    I wonder what the seat tube angle on the Luna is - if you've never had this problem before, I'd have
    to guess it's pretty darn slack.

    And as others have said, there's no law that says you MUST ride with your KOPS, but that's where
    most people do end up - or slightly behind.

    If you do consider the "forward seat post fix", remember that the cockpit will be shortened
    accordingly.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  10. Andrew Lee

    Andrew Lee Guest

    Mark Hickey wrote:
    > I wonder what the seat tube angle on the Luna is - if you've never had this problem before, I'd
    > have to guess it's pretty darn slack.

    I just looked it up. It's a middle-of-the-road 73 degrees. The bike that he owns must have a pretty
    steep seat angle (74?) and he already has his seat set as forward as possible on an American Classic
    post. Just from pictures that I have seen, I think that the American Classic post probably allows a
    much more forward position than most "standard" posts, and probably as much as the Thomson straight
    post because it has such a small upper clamp block. (Suggestion to RoyG when looking for a seatpost:
    measure the distance from the rear of the upper clamp to the center-line of the post.) The OP must
    really have a short femurs. One degree of seat angle should gain him about 1.3 cm of reach.

    Roy, are you pretty certain that the position isn't good on the Calfee? Others have pointed out that
    you find that it "rides great". That's what matters - the measurements don't really matter if you
    are in a comfortable position. It is possible that the knee over spindle position works on your
    current bike because it gives you the reach that you need, assuming that you didn't try a bunch of
    different stems when you were doing your trial and error positioning experiments. Some people
    actually prefer the knee behind the spindle a bit, so that's why I brought that up... maybe there is
    a range that can be considered "optimal" for you.

    (sorry about the e-mail reply, Mark. I hit the wrong button)
     
  11. Royg

    Royg Guest

    (posted from Google at work)

    Thanks very much for all the responses. I actually felt a little bit of knee strain later that day
    after the test ride, so I don't think it was set up optimally. Before the test ride, the shop had
    taken my current bike and came back a little later and told me that they had matched the setup and
    that's why I didn't check the seat alignment till after I had gotten back.

    Appreciate the comments on seatposts. I think the 10 degree set forward offered by the Thomson tri
    post would afford a range of adjustment that would work, whether KOPS or a cm or two behind.

    I'm curious about how relatively short my femur is, and will look for some guidelines on the net
    about femure/tibia ratios, etc.

    Thanks, Roy
     
  12. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "Andrew Lee" <whatsupandrewathotmaildotcom> wrote:

    >Mark Hickey wrote:
    >> I wonder what the seat tube angle on the Luna is - if you've never had this problem before, I'd
    >> have to guess it's pretty darn slack.
    >
    >I just looked it up. It's a middle-of-the-road 73 degrees. The bike that he owns must have a pretty
    >steep seat angle (74?) and he already has his seat set as forward as possible on an American
    >Classic post. Just from pictures that I have seen, I think that the American Classic post probably
    >allows a much more forward position than most "standard" posts, and probably as much as the Thomson
    >straight post because it has such a small upper clamp block.

    That makes sense - I run an AC on my own bike, and you CAN set the post farther forward than you can
    on most non setback posts - basically you can place the rear bend in the saddle rail less than a cm
    from the seatpost centerline. I don't know why more seatpost manufacturers don't use the
    "minimalist" upper clamp - it really only has to prevent the saddle from flying off the bike - it
    bears no weight.

    >(sorry about the e-mail reply, Mark. I hit the wrong button)

    No worries - I answered this one first.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  13. On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:00:16 GMT, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:

    >That makes sense - I run an AC on my own bike, and you CAN set the post farther forward than you
    >can on most non setback posts - basically you can place the rear bend in the saddle rail less than
    >a cm from the seatpost centerline. I don't know why more seatpost manufacturers don't use the
    >"minimalist" upper clamp - it really only has to prevent the saddle from flying off the bike - it
    >bears no weight.

    From my experience with classic-style posts, the first thing that moves if a saddle/seatpost's
    respective bolts aren't quite fastened is the saddle moving around the seatpost, and not the
    seatpost shoving itself into the frame (that's the second one, going on bumps). This says to me that
    there is significant torque on the saddle/seatpost attachment, which in a modern style seatpost at
    least partly translates into forces on the upper part of the clamp.

    Jasper
     
  14. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    Jasper Janssen <[email protected]> wrote:

    >From my experience with classic-style posts, the first thing that moves if a saddle/seatpost's
    >respective bolts aren't quite fastened is the saddle moving around the seatpost, and not the
    >seatpost shoving itself into the frame (that's the second one, going on bumps). This says to me
    >that there is significant torque on the saddle/seatpost attachment, which in a modern style
    >seatpost at least partly translates into forces on the upper part of the clamp.

    I guess - but I've never had any problems with mine (and I've got a LOT of miles on them, both road
    and MTB). Then again, I'm known for tightening things "at least enough"... ;-)

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  15. "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Jasper Janssen <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >From my experience with classic-style posts, the first thing that moves
    if
    > >a saddle/seatpost's respective bolts aren't quite fastened is the saddle moving around the
    > >seatpost, and not the seatpost shoving itself into the frame (that's the second one, going on
    > >bumps). This says to me that there is significant torque on the saddle/seatpost attachment,
    > >which in a
    modern
    > >style seatpost at least partly translates into forces on the upper part
    of
    > >the clamp.
    >
    > I guess - but I've never had any problems with mine (and I've got a LOT of miles on them, both
    > road and MTB). Then again, I'm known for tightening things "at least enough"... ;-)

    One thing I've noticed going from an AC post to one with a longer top clamp is how much firmer the
    saddle feels. I found that out when I recently borrowed a bike to try out and put my own seat on it.
    Seems the small top clamp on my AC allows the Ti rails to flex upward a good bit more, letting the
    seat sag more in the middle. It also lets the seat rock a little more when you're at either end.
    It'll depend on how stiff your saddle & rails are to begin with, but the difference was surprisingly
    noticeable on mine.

    SB
     
  16. On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:45:22 GMT, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I guess - but I've never had any problems with mine (and I've got a LOT of miles on them, both road
    >and MTB). Then again, I'm known for tightening things "at least enough"... ;-)

    Saddlepost bolts should be tightened "until a quarter stroke before they break", as my LBS guy
    recently assured me again. If you're a heavy rider like me, that's often barely or not enough,
    especially if the post/clamp interface is greased.

    Jasper
     
  17. x

    x Guest

    RE/
    >Irrelevant. See: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

    I look at KOPS another way. I see it as something that my body tends to find on it's own with enough
    pedaling. Maybe somebody else's bod will find "KOPS-minus-1-inch" or yet another persons bod will
    find "KOPS-plus-a-half-inch"...but the idea is that there *is* a position that your body will put
    itself into most of the time.

    Given that, your butt winds up *some*where...and wants to stay there...and that "where" makes
    setback important because there's so little fore-aft saddle adjustment.
    -----------------------
    PeteCresswell
     
  18. Pat Lee

    Pat Lee New Member

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  19. Pat Lee

    Pat Lee New Member

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    Sorry about the blank post. I have a question for the OP. Why don't you look for a bike that fits better?

    It seems like you're trying to shoehorn yourself onto this bike, and there must be geometries out there that are more suitable to your body type since you state that your current ride fits you well. A Calfee is not an inexpensive ride. I ran into a guy who was really into Calfee bikes and the way they fit. He had a whole spiel about the extra setback that Calfee uses and how it's more traditional Italian-style, etc. My point is this: you might have a short femur, but you're emphasizing this by buying a bike with greater setback geometry.

    Just a thought.

    --Pat.
     
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