Calling all wlaking Chiropracters, Osteopaths, Physiotherapists and Doctors



T

Trevor

Guest
Possibly the most important (to me), posting I've ever made.

A few years ago (2/3) I was happily walking 20-30 miles per day in
mountainous terrain (I am 54).

I have had a lower back problem since 30 when there was a sharp click which
laid me out on the floor.

Now I can only manage 8 miles (I had been looking forward to LEJOG when I
retired).

I develop a discomfort in the joint where my right leg meets the hip.

Back in 1978 on the Pennine Way, after a stenuous day (Once brewed to
Alston), there was a patch of numb skin on the front of my right thigh. A
doctor said it would probably disappear in time. It didn't.

Now after around 3 miles the skin between my hip and my right knee cap
becomes partially numb. A two minute rest gets it going again, though there
is additionally the discomfort in the joint which limits me to around 7/9
miles. Sometimes there is also lower back pain as well.


Here's a strange thing though. I go to the Pyrenees a lot, and recently did
2 x 8 miles walks in the Yorkshire Wolds (relatively flat) followed the next
week with 3 x 8-10 mile walks + 2000ft ascent in the Pyrenees, followed the
next week by 3 x 7 mile walks in the Yorkshire Wolds.

Result was no problems at all in the Pyrenees, but the same problem before
and after in the wolds. I don't believe it's anything to do with the climate
BTW as before I discovered this I had one very good day walking in the wolds
and looking back it had been an extremely hilly section. So I can walk
uphill for 3 hours without a twinge but get problems after 1-1.5 hours on
flat terrain. The right leg also stiffens up when sat at a desk for more
than 10 mins.

I am seeing a physio at a sports injuries clinic, doing multifidous muscle
exercises and taking Glucosamine_Chondroitin and Cod Liver Oil.

Any advice top get me back up and walking (on the level) would be EXTREMELY
GRATEFULLY appreciated.

Trevor
East Yorkshire

sorry for length of post.
 
Trevor wrote

> there was a patch of numb skin on the front of my right thigh.

I have something similar. It's caused by pressure damage of
a trapped nerve in my lower back. Most of my right calf is
still numb 5 years after I did it.

Sounds like you're doing all the right things. Perhaps the
ultimate solution is surgery to alleviate the pressure but I
would prefer a non-invasive option myself.

Chris
 
"Chris Gilbert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Trevor wrote
>
>> there was a patch of numb skin on the front of my right thigh.
>
> I have something similar. It's caused by pressure damage of
> a trapped nerve in my lower back. Most of my right calf is
> still numb 5 years after I did it.
>
> Sounds like you're doing all the right things. Perhaps the
> ultimate solution is surgery to alleviate the pressure but I
> would prefer a non-invasive option myself.
>
> Chris


I see I spelt the difficult words but couldn't manage walking (self
prophecy?).

What are you doing about it? How much can you walk?
 
I forgot to add (and don't know whether it's connected) but all my toes have
gone slightly numb (permanently) at the ends over the past year.
 
Trevor wrote

> What are you doing about it? How much can you walk?

when I first did it I really had problems walking properly
at all as I partially lost motor control of my leg. Very
disturbing. I had a chiropracter release the trapped nerve,
which was absolute heaven and after that it was steady
rehabilitation. I've had a delicate back ever since I put a
disk out playing cricket when I was 18 so I've had a lot
of years managing the problem. For the most part I've
found that the back is very good at mending itself if you
give it a chance, although you'll never get back to good-as-new.
Rest, sensible lifting, keeping the weight down, a flat and
firm bed with a low pillow and regular, genlte symmetric
exercise all help. If I do get it trapped then a hot bath and
some gentle yoga can often free it up but I'm quite prepared
to return to the chiropracter if I can't free it myself.

The numbness in the leg has slowly improved but it's taking
a long time.

Chris
 
Trevor wrote:
> I forgot to add (and don't know whether it's connected) but all my toes have
> gone slightly numb (permanently) at the ends over the past year.
>
>
I take it you have no other problems such as diabetes?

--
Kate XXXXXX R.C.T.Q Madame Chef des Trolls
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.katedicey.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!
 
In message <[email protected]>, Trevor
<[email protected]> writes
>Possibly the most important (to me), posting I've ever made.
>

Be very careful about including chiropractic practitioners in a list of
people who could possibly help you!

From:

<http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=chiropractic
..php>

"Chiropractic is a pseudoscientific approach to health care. The
thinking behind it has no basis in fact, and even after more than a
century, its core belief, the subluxation, cannot be shown to exist;
even though it is a scientifically testable theory.

Some of the beliefs, such as the anti-vaccination stance, actually go
against scientific evidence, medical opinion and government policy.
Opposing germ theory exposes the 19th century thinking that Chiropractic
is based upon."

Personally I avoid this and other money making scams (homeopathy,
acupuncture et al) like the plague, and would advise others to do so
too.

Now, let me tell you about my right knee, my back, my left
bollock........

FX: Limps off into distance.....

Regards,
--
Neil Pugh
 
Neil Pugh wrote

> Be very careful about including chiropractic practitioners in a list of
> people who could possibly help you!

Despite the fact that I used one, I agree with this. I went
on personal recommendation and she didn't just practice
the wierd stuff. In fact I stopped going when she started
getting wierd but while she was doing the physical remediation
work it was fine and her background was sports injuries
and physiotherapy.

Chris
 
In article <[email protected]>, Neil Pugh
<[email protected]> writes
>Personally I avoid this and other money making scams (homeopathy,
>acupuncture et al) like the plague, and would advise others to do so
>too.

Acupuncture has long been seen to have a demonstrable effect in the
treatment of some types of pain. The traditional Chinese explanations of
how it works and what it can do are hard to believe but that doesn't
mean it cannot do good in some applications.

There is a growing interest in and acceptance of acupuncture among the
medical establishment in the UK and other western countries.

Information for the public can be found here:

http://www.medical-acupuncture.co.uk/patients/info.html

I am not an acupuncturist but do have some interest in the field which
grew from my father's interest in it as an initially sceptical GP who
added it to his arsenal some 35 years into his career. I now do some
computer related work in support of the BMAS and write software for
medical acupuncturists to record their data.

--

Dominic Sexton
 
In message <[email protected]>, Dominic Sexton
<{d-sep03}@dscs.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <[email protected]>, Neil Pugh
><[email protected]> writes
>>Personally I avoid this and other money making scams (homeopathy,
>>acupuncture et al) like the plague, and would advise others to do so
>>too.
>
>Acupuncture has long been seen to have a demonstrable effect in the
>treatment of some types of pain. The traditional Chinese explanations
>of how it works and what it can do are hard to believe but that doesn't
>mean it cannot do good in some applications.
>

I agree that the placebo effect can have real benefits.

http://www.badscience.net/?p=540#more-540

Regards,
--
Neil Pugh
 
On Oct 29, 8:17 pm, "Trevor" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Possibly the most important (to me), posting I've ever made.
>
> A few years ago (2/3) I was happily walking 20-30 miles per day in
> mountainous terrain (I am 54).
>
> I have had a lower back problem since 30 when there was a sharp click which
> laid me out on the floor.
>
> Now I can only manage 8 miles (I had been looking forward to LEJOG when I
> retired).
>
> I develop a discomfort in the joint where my right leg meets the hip.
>
>

I know what is wrong - it sounds like you are getting old. Alas there
is no cure.

Seriously though, here is my advice. Taking ibuprofen +- paracetomol
plus some physiotherapy will probably help improve things, but don't
expect a total "cure". Some people think that acupuncture helps, so if
you can get it free on the NHS then there is no harm in trying. I
don't think that there is much scientific evidence for the benefit of
chiropractic / osteopathic treatments and all those cod liver oil and
glucosamine tablets are probably a waste of money too. Oh and with the
symptoms that you have, stay well clear of spinal surgeons.

Dr Gustav Fenk
 
[email protected] wrote:

> don't think that there is much scientific evidence for the benefit of
> chiropractic / osteopathic treatments

A bit sweeping... While it's certainly the case that the more grandiose
claims are pretty dubious (you can solve anything by jiggling joints in
the right manner), if you've got a trapped nerve and an osteopathic
manipulation frees it then I can't think why any scientist would want to
dispute there's no basis for an improvement!

I've had quite a lot of discomfort and pain relieved over the years by
my local osteopath, and it's often had the symptoms of a trapped nerve.
I go in, say I have intermittent pain at some place for no obvious
reason, he fiddles with my back, and the intermittent pain goes away.
That's pretty good direct empirical evidence of benefit to this clinical
scientist...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
In article <[email protected]>, Neil Pugh
<[email protected]> writes
>In message <[email protected]>, Dominic Sexton
><{d-sep03}@dscs.demon.co.uk> writes
>>In article <[email protected]>, Neil Pugh
>><[email protected]> writes
>>>Personally I avoid this and other money making scams (homeopathy,
>>>acupuncture et al) like the plague, and would advise others to do so
>>>
>>
>>Acupuncture has long been seen to have a demonstrable effect in the
>>treatment of some types of pain. The traditional Chinese explanations
>>how it works and what it can do are hard to believe but that doesn't
>>mean it cannot do good in some applications.
>>
>
>I agree that the placebo effect can have real benefits.
>
>http://www.badscience.net/?p=540#more-540
>

Although badscience mention the placebo effect the study whose results
were studied used real needling as sham acupuncture and found that the
sham needling was similarly as effective as the traditional needling.

As the effect of acupuncture is not yet understood sufficiently it is a
bit of a leap to say that traditional acupuncture is a sham because the
sham acupuncture (as conducted in this trial) was almost as effective in
reducing symptoms. Indeed that leap is bad science, perhaps the folk at
badscience should be lambasting themselves!

Michael Haake, who led the study, published in Archives of Internal
Medicine said "The superiority of both forms of acupuncture suggests a
common underlying mechanism that may act on pain generation or
transmission of pain signals ... and is stronger than the action
mechanism of conventional therapy."

--

Dominic Sexton
 
On Oct 29, 4:51 pm, "Trevor" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I forgot to add (and don't know whether it's connected) but all my toes have
> gone slightly numb (permanently) at the ends over the past year.

Sounds alot like what I have had. Have you had an MRI recently?
One needs to know where the pressure on the nerve is. There is a
possibility it could be at several places. I had steroid injections
to
attempt to reduce local swelling. I still have some transient
numbness,
but after 3+ years after a ruptured disk (L5-S1) and back surgery
to remove the disk fragments in my spine that were putting pressure
on my siatic nerve, I can walk well again and only have slight
numbness.
A neurosurgeon and an MRI may be what you need. You don't mention
if you have had your back problem treated since you were 30. Did they
ever tell you what the click was? Do you have a herniated disk?
 
Peter Clinch wrote:

> I've had quite a lot of discomfort and pain relieved over the years by
> my local osteopath, and it's often had the symptoms of a trapped nerve.

What's a 'trapped nerve'? The only trapped nerve I've seen was on the
xray of my prolapsed lumbar disk ('slipped disk') after they stained my
spinal cord with a radio opaque dye. There was clearly a dent in the
cord from the disk. I knew there was no way that an
osteopath/chiropracter could fiddle around and promote a 'cure'. I had
to wait until the prolapsed tissue was absorbed by my body to relieve
the pressure (a slipped disk doesn't go 'back'). In the meanwhile, four
days in continuous traction gave some relief to the pain. (This was in
the 80's.)

Most people don't realise that the body is a pretty coarse, heavy-duty
lump of machinery, and the sort of manipulation osteopaths give it won't
make much impression. It's a bit like trying to dismantle the front
suspension of a car with bare hands! Last year I dislocated my little
finger (with not the most powerful joints in the body), but the female
nurse didn't have the strength to put it back in position and needed a
well built male nurse to do it (At the time I joked with the female
nurse that she needed the hairy arms of the male one!)

Jim Ford
 
Peter Clinch wrote:

> I've had quite a lot of discomfort and pain relieved over the years by
> my local osteopath, and it's often had the symptoms of a trapped nerve.

What's a 'trapped nerve'? The only trapped nerve I've seen was on the
xray of my prolapsed lumbar disk ('slipped disk') after they stained my
spinal cord with a radio opaque dye. There was clearly a dent in the
cord from the disk. I knew there was no way that an
osteopath/chiropracter could fiddle around and promote a 'cure'. I had
to wait until the prolapsed tissue was absorbed by my body to relieve
the pressure (a slipped disk doesn't go 'back'). In the meanwhile, four
days in continuous traction gave some relief to the pain. (This was in
the 80's.)

Most people don't realise that the body is a pretty coarse, heavy-duty
lump of machinery, and the sort of manipulation osteopaths give it won't
make much impression. It's a bit like trying to dismantle the front
suspension of a car with bare hands! Last year I dislocated my little
finger (with not the most powerful joints in the body), but the female
nurse didn't have the strength to put it back in position and needed a
well built male nurse to do it (At the time I joked with the female
nurse that she needed the hairy arms of the male one!)

Jim Ford
 
In message <[email protected]>, Dominic Sexton
<{d-sep03}@dscs.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <[email protected]>, Neil Pugh
><[email protected]> writes
>>In message <[email protected]>, Dominic Sexton
>><{d-sep03}@dscs.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>In article <[email protected]>, Neil Pugh
>>><[email protected]> writes
>>>>Personally I avoid this and other money making scams (homeopathy,
>>>>acupuncture et al) like the plague, and would advise others to do so
>>>
>>>Acupuncture has long been seen to have a demonstrable effect in the
>>>treatment of some types of pain. The traditional Chinese explanations
>>>how it works and what it can do are hard to believe but that doesn't
>>>mean it cannot do good in some applications.
>>>
>>
>>I agree that the placebo effect can have real benefits.
>>
>>http://www.badscience.net/?p=540#more-540
>>
>
>Michael Haake, who led the study, published in Archives of Internal
>Medicine said "The superiority of both forms of acupuncture suggests a
>common underlying mechanism that may act on pain generation or
>transmission of pain signals ... and is stronger than the action
>mechanism of conventional therapy."
>

More here from Professor David Colquhoun:

http://dcscience.net/?page_id=10

"A good example is acupuncture. It is often stated that one of the best
documented forms of ‘alternative medicine’ is acupuncture. Certainly
the act of pushing needles into to your body elicits real physiological
responses. But recent experiments suggest that it matters very little
where the needles are inserted. There are no ‘key’ points: it is the
pricking that does it. But its advocates try to ‘explain’ the
effects, along these lines.

There are 14 major avenues of energy flowing through the body. These are
known as meridians.
The energy that moves through the meridians is called Qi.
Think of Qi as “The Force”. It is the energy that makes a clear
distinction between life and death.
Acupuncture needles are gently placed through the skin along various key
points along the meridians. This helps rebalance the Qi so the body
systems work harmoniously.

I suppose, to the uneducated, the language sounds a bit like that of
physics. But it is not.
The words have no discernible meaning whatsoever. They are pure
gobbledygook.
Can any serious university be expected to teach such nonsense as though
the words meant something? Of course not. Well so you’d think, though
a few ‘universities’ have fallen for this, to their eternal shame
(e.g, Westminster, Thames Valley, Salford, Central Lancashire,
Lincoln)."

Regards,
--
Neil Pugh
 
Jim Ford wrote

> Most people don't realise that the body is a pretty coarse, heavy-duty
> lump of machinery, and the sort of manipulation osteopaths give it won't
> make much impression.

When my sciatic nerve was 'trapped' I was amazed at the manner
in which the physio 'released' it. She must have been all of half my
size and weight yet she applied a technique to stretch my spine
which involved her dividing her body weight equally between one
of my hips and the diagonally opposite shoulder in such manner
that the entire spine opened up in a ripple of fairly gut-churning
pops, one of which evidently allowed the nerve to move enough
to relieve the pressure.

Like I said, amazing.

Chris
 
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