Calling upon the expertise of wheel gurus...



G

Greg

Guest
I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
ride and it works.

Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
spokes on Open Pro rims.

Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
tension across all the spokes.

Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).

So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
failure...

Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
much tension or too little?

What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
and orientation?

Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?

What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).

BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
many thousands of miles.

Any opinions welcome. Thanks in advance - and I apologize for the long
post. I wanted to provide all the info I could.

Greg
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
> myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
> ride and it works.
>
> Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> spokes on Open Pro rims.
>
> Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> tension across all the spokes.
>
> Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).
>
> So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
> opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
> failure...
>
> Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> much tension or too little?
>
> What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> and orientation?
>
> Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?
>
> What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
> considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
> threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
> I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
> tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).
>
> BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
> spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
> of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
> equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
> broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
> many thousands of miles.


Go the opposite of loctite. Lubricate the spoke threads
and nipple-rim area. Did you stress relieve the spokes?
One hypothesis for the spokes breaking is that they were
not stress relieved and were under tensioned, leading to
fatigue failure.

Where did the spokes break? Near the hub flange? At the
nipple? Describe in detail the fracture or post pictures.

--
Michael Press
 
> Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> spokes on Open Pro rims.
>
> Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> tension across all the spokes.
>
> Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).


My guess is that the spokes weren't properly tensioned initially, and
weren't following a direct line from hub to rim. The spokes probably bowed
out quite a bit at the flange, and over time, they start to straighten out,
which results in them being loose. That's seriously bad news for a wheel; a
combination that I've often seen result in broken spokes.

When we get in pre-built wheels, the first thing we check for are spokes
that aren't flat against the flange. If they're not, we manually flatten
them (pushing a thumb firmly against them) and the retension the wheel. This
seems to prevent problems; at least, we don't see wheels with
mysteriously-breaking spokes since we started doing so, quite a number of
years ago.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
> myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
> ride and it works.
>
> Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> spokes on Open Pro rims.
>
> Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> tension across all the spokes.
>
> Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).
>
> So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
> opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
> failure...
>
> Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> much tension or too little?
>
> What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> and orientation?
>
> Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?
>
> What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
> considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
> threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
> I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
> tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).
>
> BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
> spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
> of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
> equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
> broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
> many thousands of miles.
>
> Any opinions welcome. Thanks in advance - and I apologize for the long
> post. I wanted to provide all the info I could.
>
> Greg
>
 
I'm not expert either, but I don't believe that wheels are all that
mysterious. I'd agree with Mike J that the spokes were bowed out
slightly at the hub, and they were probably not stress relieved either.
Overall tension was probably a bit low as well. All these together are
certainly bad news. I don't know why the trailing spokes would be more
likely to fail unless it was an aberation of the truing machine to make
those all a bit loose. If they were not properly aligned with the hub
or stress relieved, then the low-tension spokes will flex at the elbow
when you hit a bump and eventually fail.

I think these mass-produced wheels are a good value since they are
generally cheaper than the sum of the parts, but you really need to
work on them as soon as you get them... ie, back off the tension on all
the spokes, lube the threads and nipple-rim interface well, bend the
spokes at the hub and stress relieve, and finish truing and tensioning
the wheel.
 
Greg wrote:
> I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
> myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
> ride and it works.
>
> Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> spokes on Open Pro rims.
>
> Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> tension across all the spokes.
>
> Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).
>
> So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
> opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
> failure...
>
> Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> much tension or too little?
>
> What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> and orientation?
>
> Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?
>
> What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
> considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
> threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
> I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
> tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).
>
> BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
> spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
> of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
> equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
> broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
> many thousands of miles.
>
> Any opinions welcome. Thanks in advance - and I apologize for the long
> post. I wanted to provide all the info I could.
>


Your spokes broke from fatigue. They fatigued because they were flexing.
They were flexing because they didn't have a straight line from hub to
rim. You need to stress relieve new wheels. Stress relieving will
straighten the spoke line and reduce residual manufacturing stresses.
See Jobst's description of the process.

I'm a little heavier than you and use the same wheels (for several
years). I just buy machine made wheels, stress relieve and adjust the
tension and get reliable wheels that stay true. In the past I tried
Locktite, it worked, but is really a bandaid, and makes wheel tweaking
and rim replacement somewhat of a nuisance.
 
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Greg" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
> > myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
> > ride and it works.
> >
> > Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> > they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> > cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> > garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> > spokes on Open Pro rims.
> >
> > Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> > so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> > recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> > around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> > tension across all the spokes.
> >
> > Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> > noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> > side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> > them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> > A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> > another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> > 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> > and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> > heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).
> >
> > So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
> > opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
> > failure...
> >
> > Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> > much tension or too little?
> >
> > What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> > and orientation?
> >
> > Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?
> >
> > What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
> > considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
> > threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
> > I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
> > tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).
> >
> > BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
> > spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
> > of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
> > equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
> > broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
> > many thousands of miles.

>
> Go the opposite of loctite. Lubricate the spoke threads
> and nipple-rim area. Did you stress relieve the spokes?
> One hypothesis for the spokes breaking is that they were
> not stress relieved and were under tensioned, leading to
> fatigue failure.
>
> Where did the spokes break? Near the hub flange? At the
> nipple? Describe in detail the fracture or post pictures.
>
> --
> Michael Press


The fractures all occurred at the hub-end (head) near the center of the
angle,

Greg
 
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> > they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> > cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> > garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> > spokes on Open Pro rims.
> >
> > Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> > so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> > recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> > around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> > tension across all the spokes.
> >
> > Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> > noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> > side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> > them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> > A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> > another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> > 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> > and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> > heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).

>
> My guess is that the spokes weren't properly tensioned initially, and
> weren't following a direct line from hub to rim. The spokes probably bowed
> out quite a bit at the flange, and over time, they start to straighten out,
> which results in them being loose. That's seriously bad news for a wheel; a
> combination that I've often seen result in broken spokes.
>
> When we get in pre-built wheels, the first thing we check for are spokes
> that aren't flat against the flange. If they're not, we manually flatten
> them (pushing a thumb firmly against them) and the retension the wheel. This
> seems to prevent problems; at least, we don't see wheels with
> mysteriously-breaking spokes since we started doing so, quite a number of
> years ago.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>


I had considered (after the fact) that it may have been a stress
relieving problem or a tensioning problem. For stress relieving, on a
pre-built wheel it's hard to tell that without disassembling the wheel,
which defeats my reason for buying them in the first place (I could
have built them, and now see that I should have, but was just wanting
to take advantage of a good deal and save myself the time of building
them myself).

I would have thought (hoped) that these were either built in-house by a
competant builder or purchased pre-built from Wheelsmith. I should
have asked, and as a result will have a hard time buying any pre-built
wheels in the future.

Greg
 
On 6 Apr 2006 05:10:21 -0700, "Greg" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I had considered (after the fact) that it may have been a stress
>relieving problem or a tensioning problem. For stress relieving, on a
>pre-built wheel it's hard to tell that without disassembling the wheel,
>which defeats my reason for buying them in the first place


You can loosen up the spokes a lot but keep the wheel laced, then
tension and stress relieve it yourself. That saves the time of lacing
the wheel, which is significant.

>I would have thought (hoped) that these were either built in-house by a
>competant builder or purchased pre-built from Wheelsmith. I should
>have asked, and as a result will have a hard time buying any pre-built
>wheels in the future.


If the parts are cheaper pre-built than separate, just buy the thing,
back off all the spokes till the threads just stick out from the
nipples, and then put a drop of oil into each nipple from the the tire
side (maybe the hub side too). Then take it from there your normal
way. You'll be ahead of the game in time and cost.

JT


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Greg wrote:
> I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
> myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
> ride and it works.
>
> Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> spokes on Open Pro rims.
>
> Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> tension across all the spokes.
>
> Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).
>
> So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
> opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
> failure...
>
> Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> much tension or too little?
>
> What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> and orientation?
>
> Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?
>
> What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
> considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
> threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
> I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
> tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).
>
> BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
> spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
> of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
> equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
> broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
> many thousands of miles.
>
> Any opinions welcome. Thanks in advance - and I apologize for the long
> post. I wanted to provide all the info I could.
>
> Greg


First, I think 32h on these rims is too few for you. Second, did you
tension, true, round, dish and stress relieve these wheels before you
rode?

If not, I suspect that's your problem. Riding a poorly made wheel makes
for a deformed rim, erratic tension and loosening and broken spokes.
 
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > (on these particular wheels the spoke
> > heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).

>
> My guess is that the spokes weren't properly tensioned initially, and
> weren't following a direct line from hub to rim. The spokes probably bowed
> out quite a bit at the flange, and over time, they start to straighten out,
> which results in them being loose. That's seriously bad news for a wheel; a
> combination that I've often seen result in broken spokes.


My first thought was spoke line too, until I read that the trailing
spokes have the heads facing out. This means the breaking spokes
couldn't possibly have bowed out, and were probably providing a good
spoke line right out the box.

It must be low tension and lack of stress relieving. Maybe poor spoke
line on the leading spokes was pulling laterally excessively on the
trailing spokes at the cross, compounding the problem?

-Mike
 
Greg wrote:

> >

>
> I had considered (after the fact) that it may have been a stress
> relieving problem or a tensioning problem. For stress relieving, on a
> pre-built wheel it's hard to tell that without disassembling the wheel,
> which defeats my reason for buying them in the first place (I could
> have built them, and now see that I should have, but was just wanting
> to take advantage of a good deal and save myself the time of building
> them myself).


Not so, take the new wheel and squeeze hard parallel spkes. If done
before,, it surely won't hurt them. Then check tension. I suspect low
tension, not true(after above), no stress relieve. These wheels are
slapped together by who knows who-why they are so cheap.
>
> I would have thought (hoped) that these were either built in-house by a
> competant builder or purchased pre-built from Wheelsmith. I should
> have asked, and as a result will have a hard time buying any pre-built
> wheels in the future.


Wheelsmith built is no guarantee of anything, including 'gold label'
wheels. Squeeze the spokes and you'll see how far outta wack they get.
>
> Greg
 
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Greg wrote:
> > I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
> > myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
> > ride and it works.
> >
> > Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> > they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> > cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> > garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> > spokes on Open Pro rims.
> >
> > Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> > so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> > recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> > around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> > tension across all the spokes.
> >
> > Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> > noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> > side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> > them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> > A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> > another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> > 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> > and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> > heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).
> >
> > So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
> > opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
> > failure...
> >
> > Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> > much tension or too little?
> >
> > What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> > and orientation?
> >
> > Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?
> >
> > What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
> > considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
> > threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
> > I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
> > tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).
> >
> > BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
> > spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
> > of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
> > equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
> > broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
> > many thousands of miles.
> >
> > Any opinions welcome. Thanks in advance - and I apologize for the long
> > post. I wanted to provide all the info I could.
> >
> > Greg

>
> First, I think 32h on these rims is too few for you. Second, did you
> tension, true, round, dish and stress relieve these wheels before you
> rode?
>
> If not, I suspect that's your problem. Riding a poorly made wheel makes
> for a deformed rim, erratic tension and loosening and broken spokes.


As for what to do-new rim...use the old spokes, build well. It isn't
spokes but a wacked rim that is ill.
 
Greg wrote:
> I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
> myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
> ride and it works.
>
> Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> spokes on Open Pro rims.
>
> Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> tension across all the spokes.
>
> Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).
>
> So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
> opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
> failure...
>
> Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> much tension or too little?
>
> What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> and orientation?
>
> Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?
>
> What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
> considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
> threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
> I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
> tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).
>
> BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
> spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
> of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
> equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
> broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
> many thousands of miles.
>
> Any opinions welcome. Thanks in advance - and I apologize for the long
> post. I wanted to provide all the info I could.
>
> Greg
>


what brand are the spokes?
 
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> > Greg wrote:
> > > I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
> > > myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
> > > ride and it works.
> > >
> > > Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> > > they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> > > cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> > > garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> > > spokes on Open Pro rims.
> > >
> > > Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> > > so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> > > recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> > > around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> > > tension across all the spokes.
> > >
> > > Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> > > noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> > > side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> > > them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> > > A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> > > another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> > > 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> > > and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> > > heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).
> > >
> > > So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
> > > opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
> > > failure...
> > >
> > > Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> > > much tension or too little?
> > >
> > > What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> > > and orientation?
> > >
> > > Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?
> > >
> > > What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
> > > considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
> > > threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
> > > I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
> > > tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).
> > >
> > > BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
> > > spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
> > > of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
> > > equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
> > > broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
> > > many thousands of miles.
> > >
> > > Any opinions welcome. Thanks in advance - and I apologize for the long
> > > post. I wanted to provide all the info I could.
> > >
> > > Greg

> >
> > First, I think 32h on these rims is too few for you. Second, did you
> > tension, true, round, dish and stress relieve these wheels before you
> > rode?
> >
> > If not, I suspect that's your problem. Riding a poorly made wheel makes
> > for a deformed rim, erratic tension and loosening and broken spokes.

>
> As for what to do-new rim...use the old spokes, build well. It isn't
> spokes but a wacked rim that is ill.


Why do you think the rim is "wacked"? There hasn't been any impact to
the rim in any way.

I just want to understand your meaning of the term in this context.

Thanks.

Greg
 
jim beam wrote:
> Greg wrote:
> > I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
> > myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
> > ride and it works.
> >
> > Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> > they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> > cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> > garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> > spokes on Open Pro rims.
> >
> > Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> > so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> > recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> > around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> > tension across all the spokes.
> >
> > Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> > noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> > side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> > them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> > A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> > another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> > 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> > and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> > heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).
> >
> > So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
> > opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
> > failure...
> >
> > Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> > much tension or too little?
> >
> > What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> > and orientation?
> >
> > Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?
> >
> > What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
> > considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
> > threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
> > I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
> > tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).
> >
> > BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
> > spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
> > of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
> > equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
> > broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
> > many thousands of miles.
> >
> > Any opinions welcome. Thanks in advance - and I apologize for the long
> > post. I wanted to provide all the info I could.
> >
> > Greg
> >

>
> what brand are the spokes?


DT 14/15 double-butted with brass nipples
 
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Greg" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
> > myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
> > ride and it works.
> >
> > Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> > they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> > cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> > garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> > spokes on Open Pro rims.
> >
> > Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> > so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> > recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> > around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> > tension across all the spokes.
> >
> > Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> > noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> > side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> > them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> > A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> > another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> > 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> > and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> > heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).
> >
> > So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
> > opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
> > failure...
> >
> > Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> > much tension or too little?
> >
> > What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> > and orientation?
> >
> > Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?
> >
> > What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
> > considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
> > threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
> > I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
> > tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).
> >
> > BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
> > spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
> > of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
> > equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
> > broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
> > many thousands of miles.

>
> Go the opposite of loctite. Lubricate the spoke threads
> and nipple-rim area. Did you stress relieve the spokes?
> One hypothesis for the spokes breaking is that they were
> not stress relieved and were under tensioned, leading to
> fatigue failure.
>
> Where did the spokes break? Near the hub flange? At the
> nipple? Describe in detail the fracture or post pictures.
>
> --
> Michael Press


When I first started building wheels years ago, I used oil on the
threads of the spokes. What I found is that it was almost a guarantee
that the wheel would "detension" (especially on the rear non-drive
side). The oil "eases" the assembly as well as the disassembly.

When I started working in the bike industry, I worked at a shop that
built quite a few wheels and there were a couple of guys there that I
(and others) thought of highly in their skill. They had different
steps to assembly and used different compounds on the threads (one used
WS Spoke Prep and the other Loctite 242). The result was the same end
product. I have since been using loctite and have not ever had a
problem with detensioning on what I have built.

I will use a bit of tri-flow or something like that on the nipple where
it meets the rim for both the initial build and susequent re-true. It
eases the effort required and spoke wind-up on a new wheel and helps
with corrosion on a used wheel if it has seen any "elements".

Greg
 
Greg wrote:
> Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> cheaper than what I could have done it for.


I will be recommending this very set for my friends who have wheel
purchases coming up. When they come in, I'll loosen the spokes until
threads are showing, and start from there. It's still a great deal on
good parts and lacing.

-Mike
 
Greg wrote:
>
>
> I had considered (after the fact) that it may have been a stress
> relieving problem or a tensioning problem. For stress relieving, on a
> pre-built wheel it's hard to tell that without disassembling the wheel,
> which defeats my reason for buying them in the first place (I could
> have built them, and now see that I should have, but was just wanting
> to take advantage of a good deal and save myself the time of building
> them myself).


I don't understand why you feel you need to disassemble the wheel. I've
stress relieved many sets of new wheels, if the spoke line is off the
spokes will lose a lot of tension in the process. I have never found it
necessary to loosen the spokes of new wheels either, that kind of
defeats the stress relieving. Just stress relieve, bring up the tension
to a uniform level & true the wheel. If a wheel has been well made,
stress relieving won't change the tension or make the wheel
significantly untrue. If the wheel comes from the factory very loose,
bring up the tension first, then stress relieve.
 
Ron Ruff wrote:
> I'm not expert either, but I don't believe that wheels are all that
> mysterious. I'd agree with Mike J that the spokes were bowed out
> slightly at the hub, and they were probably not stress relieved either.
> Overall tension was probably a bit low as well. All these together are
> certainly bad news. I don't know why the trailing spokes would be more
> likely to fail unless it was an aberation of the truing machine to make
> those all a bit loose. If they were not properly aligned with the hub
> or stress relieved, then the low-tension spokes will flex at the elbow
> when you hit a bump and eventually fail.
>
> I think these mass-produced wheels are a good value since they are
> generally cheaper than the sum of the parts, but you really need to
> work on them as soon as you get them... ie, back off the tension on all
> the spokes, lube the threads and nipple-rim interface well, bend the
> spokes at the hub and stress relieve, and finish truing and tensioning
> the wheel.


In other words (correct me if I'm wrong), mass-produced wheels are a
good value for the parts, which you need to (re)build up immediately on
receipt.
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Greg" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
> > > myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
> > > ride and it works.
> > >
> > > Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> > > they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> > > cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> > > garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> > > spokes on Open Pro rims.
> > >
> > > Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> > > so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> > > recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> > > around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> > > tension across all the spokes.
> > >
> > > Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> > > noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> > > side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> > > them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> > > A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> > > another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> > > 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> > > and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> > > heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).
> > >
> > > So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
> > > opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
> > > failure...
> > >
> > > Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> > > much tension or too little?
> > >
> > > What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> > > and orientation?
> > >
> > > Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?
> > >
> > > What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
> > > considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
> > > threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
> > > I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
> > > tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).
> > >
> > > BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
> > > spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
> > > of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
> > > equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
> > > broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
> > > many thousands of miles.

> >
> > Go the opposite of loctite. Lubricate the spoke threads
> > and nipple-rim area. Did you stress relieve the spokes?
> > One hypothesis for the spokes breaking is that they were
> > not stress relieved and were under tensioned, leading to
> > fatigue failure.
> >
> > Where did the spokes break? Near the hub flange? At the
> > nipple? Describe in detail the fracture or post pictures.
> >
> > --
> > Michael Press

>
> When I first started building wheels years ago, I used oil on the
> threads of the spokes. What I found is that it was almost a guarantee
> that the wheel would "detension" (especially on the rear non-drive
> side). The oil "eases" the assembly as well as the disassembly.
>
> When I started working in the bike industry, I worked at a shop that
> built quite a few wheels and there were a couple of guys there that I
> (and others) thought of highly in their skill. They had different
> steps to assembly and used different compounds on the threads (one used
> WS Spoke Prep and the other Loctite 242). The result was the same end
> product. I have since been using loctite and have not ever had a
> problem with detensioning on what I have built.
>
> I will use a bit of tri-flow or something like that on the nipple where
> it meets the rim for both the initial build and susequent re-true. It
> eases the effort required and spoke wind-up on a new wheel and helps
> with corrosion on a used wheel if it has seen any "elements".


The reason we lubricate the rim eyelets is to make it
easier to turn a nipple on a spoke under tension; also to
delay corrosion at this interface.

The reason we lubricate the spoke threads is to reduce
spoke wind-up when the nipple is adjusted at the spoke's
working tension. We totally eliminate spoke wind up by
turning the spoke wrench back a bit after adjustment. You
can feel it.

A spoke that is not tensioned enough can become totally
untensioned when the wheel is in use each time that spoke
reaches the contact patch. At this point the nipple can
turn, further loosening the spoke further and leaving the
wheel out of true. Loctite is a patent remedy for a
problem that should never exist in the first place.

When the spokes are untensioned you can see if the spokes
leave the hub flange directly to the rim, or are bowed
out. If the latter case obtains the builder should bend
the spokes at the hub flange by pushing with the thumb
until the spokes have a fair lead to the rim. Then
tension, tension balance, and stress relieve as usual.

--
Michael Press