Calling upon the expertise of wheel gurus...

[[email protected]]

Greg wrote:
> I have been building wheels for about 10 years. I'm don't consider
> myself to be an expert or any great wheel builder, but what I build, I
> ride and it works.
>
> Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
> they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
> cheaper than what I could have done it for. They are your
> garden-variety Ultegra 9-speed 32 hole hubs, laced 3x with DT 14/15 DB
> spokes on Open Pro rims.
>
> Over the first couple of hundred miles they went slightly out of true
> so I trued them up and using a Wheelsmith tensiometer and the
> recommended 80 to 110 kgf as a guide (I typically shoot for right
> around 90-95), I brought the wheel back into true and with consistent
> tension across all the spokes.
>
> Over the next couple of hundred they went out of true again and I
> noticed that some of the spokes were detensioning noticeably (non-drive
> side predominantly). I repeated the aforementioned process to bring
> them back into true and tension. Shortly thereafter, broke a spoke.
> A thousand or so miles later, I broke another, some time later,
> another. Today, I broke number 5, all in the course of one year and
> 5000 miles. They have all been on the non-drive side of the rear wheel,
> and have been trailing spokes (on these particular wheels the spoke
> heads are facing out on the trailing spokes).
>
> So now, my questions to Mr. Brandt or anyone else that may have an
> opinion, insight or experience with this sort of repeated, predictable
> failure...
>
> Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> much tension or too little?
>
> What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> and orientation?
>
> Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?
>
> What can I do besides tear them apart and re-do them? I have
> considered detensioning the whole wheel enough to expose a few spoke
> threads, use a few drops of Loctite 242 and then retension the wheel as
> I normally would, but I would like some opinions on "my choice" of
> tension that I build into a wheel (mentioned above).
>
> BTW, I am 6' 2", 220 pounds. My riding style is higher cadence
> spinning and rarely do I mash. When I climb, I sit and spin up instead
> of honking in a big gear. I don't consider myself brutal to my
> equipment and prior to this particular set of wheels, I have maybe
> broken a half-dozen spokes total in 20+ years and god only knows how
> many thousands of miles.
>
> Any opinions welcome. Thanks in advance - and I apologize for the long
> post. I wanted to provide all the info I could.
>
> Greg

No miles yet on my Performance Record Open Pro DT 14/15 3 cross wheels.
But the first thing I did was squeeze the spokes together. Then
decided the tension was way too low. So I added 1.5 turns of the spoke
wrench to the drive side and 0.5 turns to the non-drive side on the
rear. Then squeezed the spokes together again to get the spokes
straightened. Then retweaked the wheels. With discounts and Team
Performance rebates its hard to beat these wheels. About $265
including delivery for my Record wheels.

 

[Greg]

Peter Cole wrote:
> Greg wrote:
> >
> >
> > I had considered (after the fact) that it may have been a stress
> > relieving problem or a tensioning problem. For stress relieving, on a
> > pre-built wheel it's hard to tell that without disassembling the wheel,
> > which defeats my reason for buying them in the first place (I could
> > have built them, and now see that I should have, but was just wanting
> > to take advantage of a good deal and save myself the time of building
> > them myself).
>
> I don't understand why you feel you need to disassemble the wheel. I've
> stress relieved many sets of new wheels, if the spoke line is off the
> spokes will lose a lot of tension in the process. I have never found it
> necessary to loosen the spokes of new wheels either, that kind of
> defeats the stress relieving. Just stress relieve, bring up the tension
> to a uniform level & true the wheel. If a wheel has been well made,
> stress relieving won't change the tension or make the wheel
> significantly untrue. If the wheel comes from the factory very loose,
> bring up the tension first, then stress relieve.

Poor word choice on my part...I didn't mean disassemble, but rather
"detension dramatically".

The method I learned years ago when building wheels was to bend each
spoke toward the center of the hub right after they are inserted into
the flange. This, I was told, was to aid with the spoke having the
"correct line" and also to "pre-relieve" some of the stress before the
wheel was brought up to tension so you weren't fighting an improper
spoke line. Then, as the tension and truing is nearly done, you grab
pairs of spokes on both sides of the wheel (the ones that are parallel)
and give them a good hard squeeze, retrue, rinse, repeat, etc.

The point I was trying to make was that unless the wheel was
detensioned dramatically, one couldn't really tell if what I mentioned
above was done or not.

Another method I saw used frequently at the final tension stage was to
remove the wheel from the truing stand, place the rim into your waist,
grab the opposing side of the rim while holding the wheel parallel to
the floor and simultaneously push down with your forearms while pulling
up with your hands (almost like you were intentionally trying to "taco"
the wheel, but not exerting enough force to do so). This always
generated lots of pinging sounds...

Anyway, this is all really good information and I greatly appreciate
EVERYONE's time and effort in discussing this topic.

Greg

 

[[email protected]]

Greg who? writes:

> I had considered (after the fact) that it may have been a stress
> relieving problem or a tensioning problem. For stress relieving, on
> a pre-built wheel it's hard to tell that without disassembling the
> wheel, which defeats my reason for buying them in the first place (I
> could have built them, and now see that I should have, but was just
> wanting to take advantage of a good deal and save myself the time of
> building them myself).

You don't need to loosen any spokes to stress relieve a wheel and you
can improve the spoke line at the hub and rim likewise. Besides, it
doesn't hurt wheels to do these things again, even if that was already
done when the wheels were built. You could discover all about this in
a book that most better bicycle shops sell.

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/books.html#brandt

> I would have thought (hoped) that these were either built in-house
> by a competent builder or purchased pre-built from Wheelsmith. I
> should have asked, and as a result will have a hard time buying any
> pre-built wheels in the future.

Not so quick! You can most likely get a good deal by buying the
wheels you like by doing a little added work on them that doesn't take
more than a couple of minutes. How to do it is made clear in text and
picture in the book.

Jobst Brandt

 

[[email protected]]

Greg who? writes:

>> Go the opposite of Loctite. Lubricate the spoke threads and
>> nipple-rim area. Did you stress relieve the spokes? One hypothesis
>> for the spokes breaking is that they were not stress relieved and
>> were under tensioned, leading to fatigue failure.

>> Where did the spokes break? Near the hub flange? At the nipple?
>> Describe in detail the fracture or post pictures.

> When I first started building wheels years ago, I used oil on the
> threads of the spokes. What I found is that it was almost a
> guarantee that the wheel would "de-tension" (especially on the rear
> non-drive side). The oil "eases" the assembly as well as the
> disassembly.

> When I started working in the bike industry, I worked at a shop that
> built quite a few wheels and there were a couple of guys there that
> I (and others) thought of highly in their skill. They had different
> steps to assembly and used different compounds on the threads (one
> used WS SpokePrep and the other Loctite 242). The result was the
> same end product. I have since been using Loctite and have not ever
> had a problem with de-tensioning on what I have built.

> I will use a bit of Tri-flow or something like that on the nipple
> where it meets the rim for both the initial build and subsequent
> re-true. It eases the effort required and spoke wind-up on a new
> wheel and helps with corrosion on a used wheel if it has seen any
> "elements".

Spoke nipples cannot unscrew no matter how many miles the wheel
travels unless spokes become slack under load. Therefore, if your
wheels go out of true without being bent by a side load, your spokes
are too loose and possibly too thick (inelastic) for your use. Fatter
spokes are not made for their greater strength but for ease of truing.
The thinner the spoke, the harder it is to not twist it while truing.

Spoke stress in a 32+ spoke wheel is low enough that it will never
cause spoke failure. There has to be residual stress from manufacture
and wheel lacing to cause failure. As I mentioned, there is much
information on this in "the Bicycle Wheel". Get it and you won't be
short of understanding of your wheel problems.

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/books.html#brandt

SpokePrep was invented for too loosely machine built wheels, the
truing machine, going into infinite loops with small adjustments when
tight spokes begin twisting instead of turning in the threads. That
is why machine built wheels have traditionally been too loosely
spoked.

You don't need no steenkin SpokePrep on properly tensioned wheels.

Jobst Brandt

 

[[email protected]]

Mike Reed writes:

>> Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance
>> because they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and
>> they were cheaper than what I could have done it for.

> I will be recommending this very set for my friends who have wheel
> purchases coming up. When they come in, I'll loosen the spokes
> until threads are showing, and start from there. It's still a great
> deal on good parts and lacing.

Don't do that!

Just thumb the outbound spokes flush with the flanges if they are
bowed out, and then stress relieve them all. If the spokes are not
tight enough, take them up a 1/4 turn at a time after putting a drop
of oil in each rim eyelet and on the spoke at the nipple.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

[email protected] wrote:
> Greg who? writes:
>
> >> Go the opposite of Loctite. Lubricate the spoke threads and
> >> nipple-rim area. Did you stress relieve the spokes? One hypothesis
> >> for the spokes breaking is that they were not stress relieved and
> >> were under tensioned, leading to fatigue failure.
>
> >> Where did the spokes break? Near the hub flange? At the nipple?
> >> Describe in detail the fracture or post pictures.
>
> > When I first started building wheels years ago, I used oil on the
> > threads of the spokes. What I found is that it was almost a
> > guarantee that the wheel would "de-tension" (especially on the rear
> > non-drive side). The oil "eases" the assembly as well as the
> > disassembly.
>
> > When I started working in the bike industry, I worked at a shop that
> > built quite a few wheels and there were a couple of guys there that
> > I (and others) thought of highly in their skill. They had different
> > steps to assembly and used different compounds on the threads (one
> > used WS SpokePrep and the other Loctite 242). The result was the
> > same end product. I have since been using Loctite and have not ever
> > had a problem with de-tensioning on what I have built.
>
> > I will use a bit of Tri-flow or something like that on the nipple
> > where it meets the rim for both the initial build and subsequent
> > re-true. It eases the effort required and spoke wind-up on a new
> > wheel and helps with corrosion on a used wheel if it has seen any
> > "elements".
>
> Spoke nipples cannot unscrew no matter how many miles the wheel
> travels unless spokes become slack under load. Therefore, if your
> wheels go out of true without being bent by a side load, your spokes
> are too loose and possibly too thick (inelastic) for your use. Fatter
> spokes are not made for their greater strength but for ease of truing.
> The thinner the spoke, the harder it is to not twist it while truing.
>
> Spoke stress in a 32+ spoke wheel is low enough that it will never
> cause spoke failure. There has to be residual stress from manufacture
> and wheel lacing to cause failure. As I mentioned, there is much
> information on this in "the Bicycle Wheel". Get it and you won't be
> short of understanding of your wheel problems.
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/books.html#brandt
>
> SpokePrep was invented for too loosely machine built wheels, the
> truing machine, going into infinite loops with small adjustments when
> tight spokes begin twisting instead of turning in the threads. That
> is why machine built wheels have traditionally been too loosely
> spoked.
>
> You don't need no steenkin SpokePrep on properly tensioned wheels.
>
>

Here's another data point: I've been using boiled linseed oil on spoke
threads for close to 20 years. During the build, it acts as a thread
lube, then it hardens to become a gentle thread lock. During those ~ 20
years, I've had occasion to service many of these wheels (including the
re-dishing of many rear wheels from 6/7SP to 8SP+ ) and the use of
linseed oil has *never* been an obstacle. OTOH, my wheels don't go out
of true or break spokes for no reason. Conclusion: linseed oil is
laughably cheap (unlike SpokePrep) and, it seems, can only help the
service life of the wheel. Why not use it?

 

[Jay Beattie]

[email protected] wrote:

<snip>

> No miles yet on my Performance Record Open Pro DT 14/15 3 cross wheels.
> But the first thing I did was squeeze the spokes together. Then
> decided the tension was way too low. So I added 1.5 turns of the spoke
> wrench to the drive side and 0.5 turns to the non-drive side on the
> rear. Then squeezed the spokes together again to get the spokes
> straightened. Then retweaked the wheels. With discounts and Team
> Performance rebates its hard to beat these wheels. About $265
> including delivery for my Record wheels.

Better check the dish. If you are just raising tension, you tighten
all spokes the same number of turns -- usually only a fraction of a
turn. Your wheel must have been pretty loose to start with. -- Jay
Beattie.

 

[Mike Reed]

[email protected] wrote:
> Just thumb the outbound spokes flush with the flanges if they are
> bowed out, and then stress relieve them all. If the spokes are not
> tight enough, take them up a 1/4 turn at a time after putting a drop
> of oil in each rim eyelet and on the spoke at the nipple.

So you can get them straight enough with the spokes under tension? I
thought you'd need them loose so you could overbend to compensate for
spring-back.

-Mike

 

[Greg]

Mike Reed wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Just thumb the outbound spokes flush with the flanges if they are
> > bowed out, and then stress relieve them all. If the spokes are not
> > tight enough, take them up a 1/4 turn at a time after putting a drop
> > of oil in each rim eyelet and on the spoke at the nipple.
>
> So you can get them straight enough with the spokes under tension? I
> thought you'd need them loose so you could overbend to compensate for
> spring-back.
>
> -Mike

That's what I thought, also. But who am I to question a published
expert?! ;-)

Greg

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> I will be recommending this very set for my friends who have wheel
>> purchases coming up. When they come in, I'll loosen the spokes
>> until threads are showing, and start from there. It's still a great
>> deal on good parts and lacing.
>
> Don't do that!
>
> Just thumb the outbound spokes flush with the flanges if they are
> bowed out, and then stress relieve them all. If the spokes are not
> tight enough, take them up a 1/4 turn at a time after putting a drop
> of oil in each rim eyelet and on the spoke at the nipple.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Jobst speaks truth here. "Thumbing" the spokes is, in my opinion, the
most-important thing you can do for a new wheel. Doesn't matter that it's on
a pre-built wheel or not. We used to have to do this all the time to
prebuilt wheels, before the manufacturer got religion about 8 years ago.

The combination of "thumbing" the spokes and stress-relieving will result in
a wheel that requires virtually zero subsequent truing. The concept of a
wheel "settling in" will be a thing of the past.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike Reed writes:
>
>>> Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance
>>> because they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and
>>> they were cheaper than what I could have done it for.
>
>> I will be recommending this very set for my friends who have wheel
>> purchases coming up. When they come in, I'll loosen the spokes
>> until threads are showing, and start from there. It's still a great
>> deal on good parts and lacing.
>
> Don't do that!
>
> Just thumb the outbound spokes flush with the flanges if they are
> bowed out, and then stress relieve them all. If the spokes are not
> tight enough, take them up a 1/4 turn at a time after putting a drop
> of oil in each rim eyelet and on the spoke at the nipple.
>
> Jobst Brandt

 

[[email protected]]

Mike Reed writes:

>> Just thumb the outbound spokes flush with the flanges if they are
>> bowed out, and then stress relieve them all. If the spokes are not
>> tight enough, take them up a 1/4 turn at a time after putting a drop
>> of oil in each rim eyelet and on the spoke at the nipple.

> So you can get them straight enough with the spokes under tension? I
> thought you'd need them loose so you could overbend to compensate
> for spring-back.

We're talking about not-so-tight machine built wheels. With a good
stiff thumb you can do that. Besides, you can't overbend them at the
flange because they can only go so far without going through the
flange. Tension doesn't hurt there. It's the elbows that need it and
you can't over bend them.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Mike Reed]

[email protected] wrote:
> Mike Reed writes:
>
> >> Just thumb the outbound spokes flush with the flanges if they are
> >> bowed out, and then stress relieve them all. If the spokes are not
> >> tight enough, take them up a 1/4 turn at a time after putting a drop
> >> of oil in each rim eyelet and on the spoke at the nipple.
>
> > So you can get them straight enough with the spokes under tension? I
> > thought you'd need them loose so you could overbend to compensate
> > for spring-back.
>
> We're talking about not-so-tight machine built wheels. With a good
> stiff thumb you can do that. Besides, you can't overbend them at the
> flange because they can only go so far without going through the
> flange. Tension doesn't hurt there. It's the elbows that need it and
> you can't over bend them.

That makes sense.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Greg wrote:

> > >
> > > First, I think 32h on these rims is too few for you. Second, did you
> > > tension, true, round, dish and stress relieve these wheels before you
> > > rode?
> > >
> > > If not, I suspect that's your problem. Riding a poorly made wheel makes
> > > for a deformed rim, erratic tension and loosening and broken spokes.
> >
> > As for what to do-new rim...use the old spokes, build well. It isn't
> > spokes but a wacked rim that is ill.
>
> Why do you think the rim is "wacked"? There hasn't been any impact to
> the rim in any way.
>
> I just want to understand your meaning of the term in this context.
>
> Thanks.
>

Rim is deformed, Not round or flat anylonger since you probably rode it
w/o proper tension...the aluminum rim becomes warped, no need to hit a
hole to do this. After the rim is deformed it either has even tension,
but not true or true with erratic tension. Once the rim is like this,
and you see loosening or broken spokes, the only remedy is a new
rim...built well with the advice of those you have read in this thread.

> Greg

 

[[email protected]]

Jay Beattie wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > No miles yet on my Performance Record Open Pro DT 14/15 3 cross wheels.
> > But the first thing I did was squeeze the spokes together. Then
> > decided the tension was way too low. So I added 1.5 turns of the spoke
> > wrench to the drive side and 0.5 turns to the non-drive side on the
> > rear. Then squeezed the spokes together again to get the spokes
> > straightened. Then retweaked the wheels. With discounts and Team
> > Performance rebates its hard to beat these wheels. About $265
> > including delivery for my Record wheels.
>
> Better check the dish. If you are just raising tension, you tighten
> all spokes the same number of turns -- usually only a fraction of a
> turn. Your wheel must have been pretty loose to start with. -- Jay
> Beattie.

They were dished correctly when I started. And after putting 3 half
turns on the drive side and 1 half turn on the non drive side, they
were still dished. If you try to tighten the rear wheel the same
number of turns on both the drive and non drive sides, your rear wheel
will end up rubbing the non drive side chainstay.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 11:17:53 -0500, Pat Lamb wrote:

> In other words (correct me if I'm wrong), mass-produced wheels are a
> good value for the parts, which you need to (re)build up immediately on
> receipt.

I agree. But look for wheels advertised with good spokes such as DT.

Matt O.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 07:15:16 -0700, Mike Reed wrote:

>
> Greg wrote:
>> Recently, I bought a set of pre-built wheels from Performance because
>> they were exactly what I would have built for myself, and they were
>> cheaper than what I could have done it for.
>
> I will be recommending this very set for my friends who have wheel
> purchases coming up. When they come in, I'll loosen the spokes until
> threads are showing, and start from there. It's still a great deal on
> good parts and lacing.

FWIW, Pricepoint often has the same deal for under $200. Just make sure
the spokes are DT, WS, etc.

Matt O.

 

[Jay Beattie]

[email protected] wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > No miles yet on my Performance Record Open Pro DT 14/15 3 cross wheels.
> > > But the first thing I did was squeeze the spokes together. Then
> > > decided the tension was way too low. So I added 1.5 turns of the spoke
> > > wrench to the drive side and 0.5 turns to the non-drive side on the
> > > rear. Then squeezed the spokes together again to get the spokes
> > > straightened. Then retweaked the wheels. With discounts and Team
> > > Performance rebates its hard to beat these wheels. About $265
> > > including delivery for my Record wheels.
> >
> > Better check the dish. If you are just raising tension, you tighten
> > all spokes the same number of turns -- usually only a fraction of a
> > turn. Your wheel must have been pretty loose to start with. -- Jay
> > Beattie.
>
> They were dished correctly when I started. And after putting 3 half
> turns on the drive side and 1 half turn on the non drive side, they
> were still dished. If you try to tighten the rear wheel the same
> number of turns on both the drive and non drive sides, your rear wheel
> will end up rubbing the non drive side chainstay.

I shouldn't have been so cavalier, since when I do this, I check dish
and make adjustments -- and because of spoke angle, etc. on the right
side, I must apply more tension on that side. I am still amazed at the
three-to-one ratio, though, especially usuing half turns. -- Jay
Beattie.

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

Greg wrote:

> Generally speaking, is a non-drive spoke more apt to break from too
> much tension or too little?

Too little. LH spokes are never under much tension compared to the RH.
If they can come loose at the bottom of every wheel rotation they will
fatigue and break.

> What significance is there (if any) that these are all the same side
> and orientation?

A lot. Low tension, bend not supported by the flange (heads-out spokes
are always vulnerable in this respect).

> Is this a pre-stress (or lack thereof) issue?

Yes.

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

Greg wrote:

> Another method I saw used frequently at the final tension stage was to
> remove the wheel from the truing stand, place the rim into your waist,
> grab the opposing side of the rim while holding the wheel parallel to
> the floor and simultaneously push down with your forearms while pulling
> up with your hands (almost like you were intentionally trying to "taco"
> the wheel, but not exerting enough force to do so). This always
> generated lots of pinging sounds...

I do that because, as the pinging indicates, it's the most effective way
to remove any twist. It is a very tough test of the wheel though, and
not to be done too violently. You must also squeeze pairs of spokes to
stress-relieve/straighten/reshape (delete according to your own
religious beliefs) the spokes.

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> Rim is deformed, Not round or flat anylonger since you probably rode it
> w/o proper tension...the aluminum rim becomes warped, no need to hit a
> hole to do this. After the rim is deformed it either has even tension,
> but not true or true with erratic tension. Once the rim is like this,
> and you see loosening or broken spokes, the only remedy is a new
> rim...built well with the advice of those you have read in this thread.

IME it takes a fair bit of abuse to permanently deform a rim. Anyway,
taking the wheel apart and putting the rim on a window pane will soon
show if it's flat.