Camelbacks, Hydration and Why I Am A Genius



Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>
> Errr, how about a water bottle and a watch..'12 ounces per hour",
> easy, even on a 'bent.
>


Yea, but how would you ever know that 12oz per hour was what you needed?
Especially for a ride that has lots of flat roads in the first half,
and lots of climbing hills in the second half? When it's 75F for the
first half, and the temperature climbs to 90F during the ride?

There's no way to tell during the ride, unless you can weigh yourself
separate of the water you are carrying.
~
 
On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:14:17 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Kinky Cowboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:31:45 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Depends on who the athlete is:
>>>
>>>"In fact, a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine (April,
>>>2005) found that 13 percent of Boston Marathon runners developed
>>>hyponatremia from drinking too much water."
>>>
>>>""Even though I increased my salt intake the week before the race, I also
>>>drank almost three liters of water beforehand and drank more throughout. I
>>>knew at mile seven that something was wrong and I was in trouble," said
>>>Guevara, a 27-year old running enthusiast from Centerville, VA. "In the
>>>medical tent, I was woozy and slurring my speech and once someone took my
>>>sodium levels, they realized I had hyponatremia and gave me some hot,
>>>salty
>>>broth. The scary thing is, a few years ago, I may have been treated for
>>>dehydration - with more water."
>>>
>>>I'd suggest that most people don't need to drink in advance and they
>>>definitely shouldn't be forcing themselves to drink.
>>>
>>>I can't find them now but with the publicity surrounding Jennifer
>>>Strange's
>>>death I saw a couple cites of recent studies that are taking issue with
>>>the
>>>whole drink before you're thirsty meme.
>>>

>>
>> There are two different problems, and it doesn't help to conflate
>> them. Anybody exercising hard, especially in a hot and or humid
>> environment, will lose a lot of both water and sodium through
>> perspiration. Trying to replace only one of these, by drinking only
>> plain water, leads to hyponatremia just as surely as not replacing the
>> water leads to dehydration.
>>
>> By drinking a properly balanced solution of electrolytes in water, you
>> can avoid both problems.
>>
>> There's an online hydration calculator, with sport specific inputs, at
>> http://www.hydraopt.com
>>
>> Taking reasonable guesses at the size and weight of this Guevara
>> fellow, he probably needed to drink no more than about 3.5 litres for
>> the marathon; by taking 3 litres of water and no electrolytes at the
>> start, he was setting himself up for trouble.
>>

>
>Actually, I see that her first name, Katherine, wasn't in that quote so your
>estimate of size and weight was probably way off since she is a she.
>


In which case SHE needed even less water; I'm guessing she was quite a
bit lighter than my 65kg estimate. You can play with the numbers
yourself if you know more about her and the conditions under which the
race was run



Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary
 
"Kinky Cowboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:14:17 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Kinky Cowboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:31:45 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Depends on who the athlete is:
>>>>
>>>>"In fact, a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine
>>>>(April,
>>>>2005) found that 13 percent of Boston Marathon runners developed
>>>>hyponatremia from drinking too much water."
>>>>
>>>>""Even though I increased my salt intake the week before the race, I
>>>>also
>>>>drank almost three liters of water beforehand and drank more throughout.
>>>>I
>>>>knew at mile seven that something was wrong and I was in trouble," said
>>>>Guevara, a 27-year old running enthusiast from Centerville, VA. "In the
>>>>medical tent, I was woozy and slurring my speech and once someone took
>>>>my
>>>>sodium levels, they realized I had hyponatremia and gave me some hot,
>>>>salty
>>>>broth. The scary thing is, a few years ago, I may have been treated for
>>>>dehydration - with more water."
>>>>
>>>>I'd suggest that most people don't need to drink in advance and they
>>>>definitely shouldn't be forcing themselves to drink.
>>>>
>>>>I can't find them now but with the publicity surrounding Jennifer
>>>>Strange's
>>>>death I saw a couple cites of recent studies that are taking issue with
>>>>the
>>>>whole drink before you're thirsty meme.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are two different problems, and it doesn't help to conflate
>>> them. Anybody exercising hard, especially in a hot and or humid
>>> environment, will lose a lot of both water and sodium through
>>> perspiration. Trying to replace only one of these, by drinking only
>>> plain water, leads to hyponatremia just as surely as not replacing the
>>> water leads to dehydration.
>>>
>>> By drinking a properly balanced solution of electrolytes in water, you
>>> can avoid both problems.
>>>
>>> There's an online hydration calculator, with sport specific inputs, at
>>> http://www.hydraopt.com
>>>
>>> Taking reasonable guesses at the size and weight of this Guevara
>>> fellow, he probably needed to drink no more than about 3.5 litres for
>>> the marathon; by taking 3 litres of water and no electrolytes at the
>>> start, he was setting himself up for trouble.
>>>

>>
>>Actually, I see that her first name, Katherine, wasn't in that quote so
>>your
>>estimate of size and weight was probably way off since she is a she.
>>

>
> In which case SHE needed even less water; I'm guessing she was quite a
> bit lighter than my 65kg estimate. You can play with the numbers
> yourself if you know more about her and the conditions under which the
> race was run
>


Yes, which may not prove my point of it being ok to just drink when one is
thirsty but it sure as hell supports the idea that this whole "hydrate or
die" campaign of many hydration pack and sports drink manufacturers has
created such a huge fear of dehydration out there that you have people
drinking 3 or 4 times what they really need to do well.

Greg
 
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:23:19 -0600, Tim McNamara
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:57:35 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Errr, how about drink when you're thirsty. More and more people are
>> >coming to the conclusion that following some forced drinking
>> >scheduled is inefficient.
>> >

>>
>> Waiting until you're thirsty before you start drinking is a sure
>> route to dehydration. In normal life, that much dehydration doesn't
>> matter, but it will be enough to have a deleterious effect on your
>> sporting performance, and in a long hard race you may never catch up,
>> leaving you impaired for most of the race duration.

>
>That's old-school thinking, K.C. Newer research has found that
>overhydrating is done easily and can lead to serious health
>consequences. There's been some threads on this recently.


True, but dehydration can kill you too. The lesson is to take proper
advice about the right amount to drink, from a proper estimate of both
the conditions and the exercise intensity, and draw up a proper plan
to replace, as far as possible, both the fluid and the electrolytes.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary
 
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:27:25 -0600, Tim McNamara
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> There are two different problems, and it doesn't help to conflate
>> them. Anybody exercising hard, especially in a hot and or humid
>> environment, will lose a lot of both water and sodium through
>> perspiration. Trying to replace only one of these, by drinking only
>> plain water, leads to hyponatremia just as surely as not replacing
>> the water leads to dehydration.
>>
>> By drinking a properly balanced solution of electrolytes in water,
>> you can avoid both problems.

>
>Sorry, but it can't be done that way. A concentration of electrolytes
>like that would make you puke your guts out. The concentrations in
>sports drinks are low. We've been trained to drink too much when
>exercising, with research funded by companies like Gatorade whose
>motives may not be as pure as one might hope.


You can't replace all of your electrolyte loss through drinks alone,
but you can do enough to avoid hyponatremia, in short races at least.
In very long races (4h +) you'd be getting some electrolyte
replenishment from solid food too. Those ham sandwiches in the
musettes aren't just for show :)

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:23:19 -0600, Tim McNamara
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:57:35 -0800, "G.T."
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Errr, how about drink when you're thirsty. More and more people
> >> >are coming to the conclusion that following some forced drinking
> >> >scheduled is inefficient.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Waiting until you're thirsty before you start drinking is a sure
> >> route to dehydration. In normal life, that much dehydration
> >> doesn't matter, but it will be enough to have a deleterious effect
> >> on your sporting performance, and in a long hard race you may
> >> never catch up, leaving you impaired for most of the race
> >> duration.

> >
> >That's old-school thinking, K.C. Newer research has found that
> >overhydrating is done easily and can lead to serious health
> >consequences. There's been some threads on this recently.

>
> True, but dehydration can kill you too. The lesson is to take proper
> advice about the right amount to drink, from a proper estimate of
> both the conditions and the exercise intensity, and draw up a proper
> plan to replace, as far as possible, both the fluid and the
> electrolytes.


Ah, yes, and it's so trivial to calculate your water losses through
sweating and urination, as well as your potassium, sodium and chloride
losses. LOL.

Resist the hype, KC. The thirst mechanism has kept the species alive
for 100,000 years or more. Unless you're an Usherite.
 
"Kinky Cowboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> There are two different problems, and it doesn't help to conflate
> them. Anybody exercising hard, especially in a hot and or humid
> environment, will lose a lot of both water and sodium through
> perspiration. Trying to replace only one of these, by drinking only
> plain water, leads to hyponatremia just as surely as not replacing the
> water leads to dehydration.
>
> By drinking a properly balanced solution of electrolytes in water, you
> can avoid both problems.
>
> There's an online hydration calculator, with sport specific inputs, at
> http://www.hydraopt.com
>
> Taking reasonable guesses at the size and weight of this Guevara
> fellow, he probably needed to drink no more than about 3.5 litres for
> the marathon; by taking 3 litres of water and no electrolytes at the
> start, he was setting himself up for trouble.
>
> Kinky Cowboy*
>
> *Batteries not included
> May contain traces of nuts
> Your milage may vary
>


Perhaps, not quite correct. No one is drinking 0.9% saline solution -
similar to sea water or your body's extracellular fluids. The hyponatremia
problems in endurance atheletes come from too much water and not from lack
of salt. Under most conditions, athletes do not lose that much sodium or
other electrolytes for that matter. That is why everyone stopped taking
salt tablets several decades ago. Of course, some electrolyte replacement is
appropriate.

The drink before you are thirsty admonition has been promulgated by many
experts in the past. This recommendation is now being re-evaluated by most
exercise physiologists. Very vigorous hydration does not enhance
performance and may cause serious problems of hyponatremia as noted in this
thread. Here's a link to the official position of the American College of
Sports Medicine:

http://www.acsm-msse.org/pt/pt-core/template-journal/msse/media/0196.htm

For a less technical and more user friendly summary of the recommendations
in video format go to this site:

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/nutrition/a/aa070703a.htm

and click on "Can Too Much Water Sink Runners?"

BobT
 
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 04:55:19 -0600, DougC <[email protected]>
wrote:

> One person noted that they were no good for competition however,
>because there was no way to tell how much you were drinking.


For me.. the real reason for using water bottles during a race is
strictly a weight issue .... in MTB races, there is a water station to
pick up a fresh bottle ( hand off by your support person(s) ) ..
Overal, less weight is carried with the water bottle method then by
filling up a camelback with enough water for the entire ride.. Same
goes for road racing..

charlieb in ct.
 
>> I see this most frequently at
>> altitude, where people tend to drink the same as they do at lower
>> elevations, yet the need is considerably greater, due to the amount of
>> fluid
>> loss with each breath

>
> I don't know about that one, Mike. When I lived in Kauai (85F,
> 70%RH... pretty much all the time) I drank as much as I possibly could
> and it still wasn't enough (ever). On a 4hr ride I'd down 10lbs of
> fluid, not pee at all, and be 10lbs lighter when I got home. Now I
> live at 7400ft and hardly need to drink at all... so whatever I'm
> losing through respiration isn't much compared to what I was sweating
> before. Even if it was warm here, at least the sweat evaporates easily
> so it does some good.


Yours is an extreme case; in such temp/humidity situations, your body is
very inefficient at sweat-based cooling. Your own figures tell the tale;
they're certainly not representative of a normal person in a normal climate.

By the way, how did you manage a 4 hour ride in Kauai? On or off-road? I've
been tempted to take my bike (road bike) there sometime, but it seems like
the only road of interest (to me) would be the climb up Waimea Canyon. Can
you actually put together a long ride without doing most of it in both
directions?

Thanks-

--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
 
On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:31:45 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Kinky Cowboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:57:35 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>>Errr, how about drink when you're thirsty. More and more people are
>>>coming to the conclusion that following some forced drinking scheduled
>>>is inefficient.

>>
>> Waiting until you're thirsty before you start drinking is a sure route
>> to dehydration. In normal life, that much dehydration doesn't matter,
>> but it will be enough to have a deleterious effect on your sporting
>> performance, and in a long hard race you may never catch up, leaving
>> you impaired for most of the race duration.

>
>Depends on who the athlete is:
>
>"In fact, a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine (April,
>2005) found that 13 percent of Boston Marathon runners developed
>hyponatremia from drinking too much water."


I suspect it's more where than who the athlete is. In a warmer clime,
I can't drink (1 qt/hr) as fast as I can sweat (2 qts/hr or more) on a
typical 90-100F summer day. (Wasn't part of the problem with that
Boston Marathon cooler than normal temperature, like about 40F?)

>I'd suggest that most people don't need to drink in advance and they
>definitely shouldn't be forcing themselves to drink.


Having trimmed your 3 liter pre-hydration example, I still have to say
I'm amazed anyone could drink that much and keep it in. IME, 2 quarts
of fluid in one hour guarantees something's coming out of one orifice
or another...

Pat


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