Campag non-indexed downtube shifter washers - help!

[Simon Brooke]

I've got myself a pair of beautiful (second hand) Campag downtube shifters,
new style, non-indexed, to replace the Sachs-Huret shifters on my winter
bike. For each lever their are the following parts:

* one baseplate
* one large brass washer, inner diameter to fit frame boss
* one small brass washer, inner diameter to fit frame boss
* two conical clutch washers, inner diameter to fit fixing bolt
* one cover washer

The levers are similar to, but not identical to, the left-hand lever on
page 37 of http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/spares01-B.pdf although as
they're non-indexed the right hand lever is simply a mirror of the left.
Also, in mine, the lever core - the fifth, sixth and seventh components
from the left in the drawing - are already assembled into the lever and I
haven't felt the need to dig them out.

So what's the problem? The problem is that the fixing bolt unscrews as the
lever is used. I know that they always did this a bit, which is why the
bolt had the little butterfly head so that you could manually adjust the
tension on the clutch. But these are unscrewing dramatically - three
gear-shifts and they're loose, which, for non-indexed shifters, is pretty
much unusable.

From the diagrams it appears that the clutch washers should be wide ends
together, pointed ends apart. Can someone confirm this? Can anyone give me
any other hints to get these working? They're aesthetically much nicer
than the plastic Sachs-Huret ones, but the Sachs-Huret ones worked
better...

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Friends don't send friends HTML formatted emails.

 

[M-gineering]

Simon Brooke wrote:
> I've got myself a pair of beautiful (second hand) Campag downtube shifters,
> new style, non-indexed, to replace the Sachs-Huret shifters on my winter
> bike. For each lever their are the following parts:
>
> * one baseplate
> * one large brass washer, inner diameter to fit frame boss
> * one small brass washer, inner diameter to fit frame boss
> * two conical clutch washers, inner diameter to fit fixing bolt
> * one cover washer
>
> The levers are similar to, but not identical to, the left-hand lever on
> page 37 of http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/spares01-B.pdf although as
> they're non-indexed the right hand lever is simply a mirror of the left.
> Also, in mine, the lever core - the fifth, sixth and seventh components
> from the left in the drawing - are already assembled into the lever and I
> haven't felt the need to dig them out.
>
> So what's the problem? The problem is that the fixing bolt unscrews as the
> lever is used. I know that they always did this a bit, which is why the
> bolt had the little butterfly head so that you could manually adjust the
> tension on the clutch. But these are unscrewing dramatically - three
> gear-shifts and they're loose, which, for non-indexed shifters, is pretty
> much unusable.
>
> From the diagrams it appears that the clutch washers should be wide ends
> together, pointed ends apart. Can someone confirm this? Can anyone give me
> any other hints to get these working? They're aesthetically much nicer
> than the plastic Sachs-Huret ones, but the Sachs-Huret ones worked
> better...
>
you're missing a thin black washer with a non circular hole, which
ensures that the outer cover washer will not rotate on the bos. Thats
what the small flats on the end of the shifter boss are for

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

 

[Simon D]

After serious thinking M-gineering wrote :
> Simon Brooke wrote:
>> I've got myself a pair of beautiful (second hand) Campag downtube shifters,
>> new style, non-indexed, to replace the Sachs-Huret shifters on my winter
>> bike. For each lever their are the following parts:
>>
>> * one baseplate
>> * one large brass washer, inner diameter to fit frame boss
>> * one small brass washer, inner diameter to fit frame boss
>> * two conical clutch washers, inner diameter to fit fixing bolt
>> * one cover washer
>>
>> The levers are similar to, but not identical to, the left-hand lever on
>> page 37 of http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/spares01-B.pdf although as
>> they're non-indexed the right hand lever is simply a mirror of the left.
>> Also, in mine, the lever core - the fifth, sixth and seventh components
>> from the left in the drawing - are already assembled into the lever and I
>> haven't felt the need to dig them out.
>>
>> So what's the problem? The problem is that the fixing bolt unscrews as the
>> lever is used. I know that they always did this a bit, which is why the
>> bolt had the little butterfly head so that you could manually adjust the
>> tension on the clutch. But these are unscrewing dramatically - three
>> gear-shifts and they're loose, which, for non-indexed shifters, is pretty
>> much unusable.
>>
>> From the diagrams it appears that the clutch washers should be wide ends
>> together, pointed ends apart. Can someone confirm this? Can anyone give me
>> any other hints to get these working? They're aesthetically much nicer
>> than the plastic Sachs-Huret ones, but the Sachs-Huret ones worked
>> better...
>>
> you're missing a thin black washer with a non circular hole, which ensures
> that the outer cover washer will not rotate on the bos. Thats what the small
> flats on the end of the shifter boss are for

You may well be right, but I'm not sure what you mean by this - are you
thinking about the later Synchro levers? As far as I can remember the
part that prevented rotation on the old Record levers which Simon seems
to have (from the Super Record days - early 80s - although there was
never an actual SR downtube lever as such) was a fairly thick white
plastic washer with two moulded flats to fit the boss (similar to the
part 7th from the left on Simon's picture). There was, I think, a quite
small black metal washer next to the wing nut itself, but it didn't
engage with the boss flats.

It sounds to me as though Simon has the plastic conical washers, but is
it possible that he's got two plain ones - without the flats?

Simon - as you say, these levers were ****: they came loose pretty much
all the time, and certainly needed tightening every few gear changes.
That said, your problem does sound extreme. I haven't used them since
the mid 80s, but I do remember that careful lubrication helped, odd as
that sounds - you'd expect it to make the things slip more, but
reducing the friction between the washers actually seemed to improve
things. I *think8 I used Campag white grease, but it's been a long,
long time...!

I can't remember what I did with my old Record levers - it's just
possible that I have them in an old junk box somewhere. I'll try to
have a look this weekend in case you need parts, and so that you can
see the bits we're describing. If i've got them, you're welcome to what
I have, but I can't make any promises about still having them,
unfortunately.

--
Simon

 

[Simon D]

Simon D explained on 04/08/2007 :
> After serious thinking M-gineering wrote :
>> Simon Brooke wrote:
>>> I've got myself a pair of beautiful (second hand) Campag downtube
>>> shifters,
>>> new style...
>
> You may well be right, but I'm not sure what you mean by this - are you
> thinking about the later Synchro levers?

Sorry - just realised that these *aren't* "Super Record", if they're
"new style". In that case, I think you're probably right about the
black washer, although I've a feeling that some of the later ones were
also chrome finished.

--
Simon

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, M-gineering
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>> I've got myself a pair of beautiful (second hand) Campag downtube
>> shifters, new style, non-indexed, to replace the Sachs-Huret shifters on
>> my winter bike. For each lever their are the following parts:
>>
>> * one baseplate
>> * one large brass washer, inner diameter to fit frame boss
>> * one small brass washer, inner diameter to fit frame boss
>> * two conical clutch washers, inner diameter to fit fixing bolt
>> * one cover washer
>>
>> The levers are similar to, but not identical to, the left-hand lever on
>> page 37 of http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/spares01-B.pdf although as
>> they're non-indexed the right hand lever is simply a mirror of the left.
>> Also, in mine, the lever core - the fifth, sixth and seventh components
>> from the left in the drawing - are already assembled into the lever and
>> I haven't felt the need to dig them out.
>>
>> So what's the problem? The problem is that the fixing bolt unscrews as
>> the lever is used. I know that they always did this a bit, which is why
>> the bolt had the little butterfly head so that you could manually adjust
>> the tension on the clutch. But these are unscrewing dramatically - three
>> gear-shifts and they're loose, which, for non-indexed shifters, is
>> pretty much unusable.
>>
>> From the diagrams it appears that the clutch washers should be wide ends
>> together, pointed ends apart. Can someone confirm this? Can anyone give
>> me any other hints to get these working? They're aesthetically much
>> nicer than the plastic Sachs-Huret ones, but the Sachs-Huret ones worked
>> better...
>>
> you're missing a thin black washer with a non circular hole, which
> ensures that the outer cover washer will not rotate on the bos. Thats
> what the small flats on the end of the shifter boss are for

! No, I'm not missing em, I've got 'em; I simply misunderstood what they
were and assumed they were for setups with a different boss on the frame.
Many thanks, excellent!

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Iraq war: it's time for regime change...
... go now, Tony, while you can still go with dignity.
[update 18 months after this .sig was written: it's still relevant]

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Simon D
('[email protected]') wrote:

> After serious thinking M-gineering wrote :
>> Simon Brooke wrote:
>>> I've got myself a pair of beautiful (second hand) Campag downtube
>>> shifters, new style, non-indexed, to replace the Sachs-Huret shifters
>>> on my winter bike. For each lever their are the following parts:
>>>
>>> * one baseplate
>>> * one large brass washer, inner diameter to fit frame boss
>>> * one small brass washer, inner diameter to fit frame boss
>>> * two conical clutch washers, inner diameter to fit fixing bolt
>>> * one cover washer
>>>
>>> The levers are similar to, but not identical to, the left-hand lever on
>>> page 37 of http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/spares01-B.pdf although as
>>> they're non-indexed the right hand lever is simply a mirror of the
>>> left. Also, in mine, the lever core - the fifth, sixth and seventh
>>> components from the left in the drawing - are already assembled into
>>> the lever and I haven't felt the need to dig them out.
>>>
>>> So what's the problem? The problem is that the fixing bolt unscrews as
>>> the lever is used. I know that they always did this a bit, which is why
>>> the bolt had the little butterfly head so that you could manually
>>> adjust the tension on the clutch. But these are unscrewing dramatically
>>> - three gear-shifts and they're loose, which, for non-indexed shifters,
>>> is pretty much unusable.
>>>
>>> From the diagrams it appears that the clutch washers should be wide
>>> ends together, pointed ends apart. Can someone confirm this? Can anyone
>>> give me any other hints to get these working? They're aesthetically
>>> much nicer than the plastic Sachs-Huret ones, but the Sachs-Huret ones
>>> worked better...
>>>
>> you're missing a thin black washer with a non circular hole, which
>> ensures that the outer cover washer will not rotate on the bos. Thats
>> what the small flats on the end of the shifter boss are for
>
> You may well be right, but I'm not sure what you mean by this - are you
> thinking about the later Synchro levers? As far as I can remember the
> part that prevented rotation on the old Record levers which Simon seems
> to have (from the Super Record days - early 80s - although there was
> never an actual SR downtube lever as such) was a fairly thick white
> plastic washer with two moulded flats to fit the boss (similar to the
> part 7th from the left on Simon's picture). There was, I think, a quite
> small black metal washer next to the wing nut itself, but it didn't
> engage with the boss flats.
>
> It sounds to me as though Simon has the plastic conical washers, but is
> it possible that he's got two plain ones - without the flats?

Right: all the parts I've got (except the levers themselves and their
cores) are here:

http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/p8040575.jpg

I've included both the top-hat pieces which I didn't mention in the
original post because I thought they were simply substitute bosses (they
clearly aren't). I don't understand these pieces,

The LH boss on frame (with the RH lever visible behind) is here:

http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/p8040576.jpg

Warning: VERY big photos - but you should have enough detail.

This shows both sides of the lever itself (not very sharp):

http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/lever.jpg

As you see

(i) there are no flats on the end of the boss.
(ii) all parts are metal
(iii) the lever has something assembled into its core, which is not
push-fit

The Sachs-Huret levers which I removed are plastic assemblies which are not
obviously dismantlable - remove the screw and the whole assembly comes off
the boss in one piece.

I had assumed that the top-hat-shaped parts were the ones that M-gineering
was referring to, but they don't seem to be. The bosses don't have flats
for the square slot in the top-hats to engage into, and if you put the top
hats onto the bosses as they are, then the clutch washers are physically
prevented from tightening against the lever, so it just flops.

> Simon - as you say, these levers were ****: they came loose pretty much
> all the time, and certainly needed tightening every few gear changes.
> That said, your problem does sound extreme. I haven't used them since
> the mid 80s, but I do remember that careful lubrication helped, odd as
> that sounds - you'd expect it to make the things slip more, but
> reducing the friction between the washers actually seemed to improve
> things. I *think8 I used Campag white grease, but it's been a long,
> long time...!

Come to think of it, I remember this as well: grease, and then clamp up
harder to resist the slip!

I think, however (and I'm sure someone out there can confirm for me) that
I've simply got non-standard bosses. In which case I'm not really sure
what I'll do, but swapping back to the Sachs-Huret levers isn't
impossible. The thing is, I hope to replace this frame this winter, and
when I do I could be a little more careful to choose one with the right
bosses!

> I can't remember what I did with my old Record levers - it's just
> possible that I have them in an old junk box somewhere. I'll try to
> have a look this weekend in case you need parts, and so that you can
> see the bits we're describing. If i've got them, you're welcome to what
> I have, but I can't make any promises about still having them,
> unfortunately.

Well, if you have I'd be grateful, but don't put any effort into it. This
is simple my commuting bike, so isn't hugely important in the first place;
and at some stage in the not-so-very distant future it[1] will get ergo
levers, at which point this exercise becomes moot.

[1] if it gets a new frame, does it remain the same bike?

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; all in all you're just another click in the call
;; -- Minke Bouyed

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Simon Brooke
('[email protected]') wrote:

> in message <[email protected]>, M-gineering
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> you're missing a thin black washer with a non circular hole, which
>> ensures that the outer cover washer will not rotate on the bos. Thats
>> what the small flats on the end of the shifter boss are for
>
> ! No, I'm not missing em, I've got 'em; I simply misunderstood what they
> were and assumed they were for setups with a different boss on the frame.
> Many thanks, excellent!

Sadly, the parts I've got didn't fit - see other post.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; better than your average performing pineapple

 

[M-gineering]

Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, Simon Brooke
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> in message <[email protected]>, M-gineering
>> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>>
>>> you're missing a thin black washer with a non circular hole, which
>>> ensures that the outer cover washer will not rotate on the bos. Thats
>>> what the small flats on the end of the shifter boss are for
>> ! No, I'm not missing em, I've got 'em; I simply misunderstood what they
>> were and assumed they were for setups with a different boss on the frame.
>> Many thanks, excellent!
>
> Sadly, the parts I've got didn't fit - see other post.
>

with the older style boss you have a small bracket slipped over the
square of the boss, which you pick up with a detent on the exterior washer

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

 

[Mark McNeill]

Response to Simon Brooke:
> [1] if it gets a new frame, does it remain the same bike?

No, it becomes a mythical boat, or a pair of socks, or something:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus



--
Mark, UK
"Doubt everything at least once, even the proposition that two times two
equals four."