Camping Stove

[Richard Bates]

[Probably more useful to post to uk.rec.camping or some such
group but I don't lurk there so don't want to post]

I've been thinking about my two stoves recently and how
environmentally they could be.

Stove 1 runs from a disposable butane/propane cylinder. Gas
is /relatively/ clean but I have a problem which empty gas
cyclinders. Can they be recycled safely? Or even (although
designed to be disposable) can they be refilled in a
similar manner to it's larger brothers (too large for
carrying on a bike).

If when the cyclinder becomes useless for cooking, the valve
is left open for pressures to equilibrate, can it be assumed
to be safe for recycling?

Stove 2 runs from either unleaded petrol or coleman fuel.
Unleaded petrol is not good for the environment, and coleman
fuel which claims to be "clean" also leaves me with a metal
container to dispose of.

Which is the lesser of the two evils? Or is there a better
alternative (short of an open fire made of salvaged wood).?

Love and flames from Rich x

--
Young Musician of the Year 2004 was a fiddle

 

[Simon Mason]

"Richard Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Which is the lesser of the two evils? Or is there a
> better alternative (short of an open fire made of
> salvaged wood).?

Grow some barley, brew beer, distill it and burn the
alcohol, very e-friendly. Of course the best way would be
to use the sun's heat by building a reflector to
concentrate the sun's rays, assuming that we get any! Also,
there are certain chemicals that when mixed together
produce heat with no C02 being given off, sulphuric acid
and water for example. Practically speaking though, I'd get
a cheapo gas thing from Halfords.

--
Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

 

[Julian]

Richard Bates <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [Probably more useful to post to uk.rec.camping or some
> such group but I don't lurk there so don't want to post]
>
> I've been thinking about my two stoves recently and how
> environmentally they could be.
>
> Stove 1 runs from a disposable butane/propane cylinder.
> Gas is /relatively/ clean but I have a problem which empty
> gas cyclinders. Can they be recycled safely? Or even
> (although designed to be disposable) can they be refilled
> in a similar manner to it's larger brothers (too large for
> carrying on a bike).
>
> If when the cyclinder becomes useless for cooking, the
> valve is left open for pressures to equilibrate, can it be
> assumed to be safe for recycling?
>
> Stove 2 runs from either unleaded petrol or coleman fuel.
> Unleaded petrol is not good for the environment, and
> coleman fuel which claims to be "clean" also leaves me
> with a metal container to dispose of.
>
> Which is the lesser of the two evils? Or is there a
> better alternative (short of an open fire made of
> salvaged wood).?
>
> Love and flames from Rich x

A nice solution would be a Kelly's kettle - you just need a
couple of sheets of newspaper or a few twigs for loads of
hot water.

http://www.gearshift.co.uk/acatalog/info_WATCK1.html

They are a bit smoky though and not too good in the wet -
great fun otherwise.

--

J u l i a n S y m o n d s o n
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
D a t a - t o - G o L i m i t e d
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.data-to-go.com

01270 626008

__o
_`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

 

[Nick Kew]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> writes:

>> Didn't I read that it took more energy to make biodiesel
>> than it contained?
>>
> Quite possibly.
>
> But they were bullshitting propagandists who said so.
>
> The propagandists on my side say there's an 84% energy
> yield on it from their studies. Which is not dissimilar to
> the 84% energy yield from petrodiesel. Just that the
> biodiesel does it inna carbon-neutral stylee,

Bzzt, big red herring there.

In its natural state, the land devoted to growing biodiesel
will be covered in vegetation, and absorbing CO2. When
growing for man to burn, the same is true. Except that
burning it then re-releases the CO2. So you've just
neutralised land that *should* be making a positive
contribution - which is not so very different overall to
burning fossils but leaving todays plants to grow instead.

Creative accounting is all about conveniently hiding things
like that.

--
Nick Kew

 

[Chris French]

In message
<[email protected]>, Graeme
<[email protected]> writes
>[email protected] (Nick Kew) wrote in news:ft8rm1-
>2e8.ln1 @webthing.com:
>
>> n its natural state, the land devoted to growing
>> biodiesel will be covered in vegetation, and absorbing
>> CO2. When growing for man to burn, the same is true.
>> Except that burning it then re-releases the CO2. So
>> you've just neutralised land that *should* be making a
>> positive contribution - which is not so very different
>> overall to burning fossils but leaving todays plants to
>> grow instead.
>
>It may be complete bollocks, but is the cutting down of the
>vegetation not compensated for by the increased CO2
>absorbtion of younger, faster growing plants as opposed to
>older, slower growing ones? I seem to remember some company
>(Andrex?) using that in some advertising blurb about being
>a green company and replanting trees some years back (which
>makes me think it is more likely than not to be nonsense).

No you are correct Graeme, for Bio-diesel to make any sense
in the long term, you obviously have to continue to grow
replacement crops to ensure a continuous supply. so yes the
replacement plants are effectively absorbing the CO2 that is
released in the burning of the bio-diesel.
--
Chris French, Leeds

 

[Simonb]

Julian wrote:

> A nice solution would be a Kelly's kettle - you just need
> a couple of sheets of newspaper or a few twigs for loads
> of hot water.
>
> http://www.gearshift.co.uk/acatalog/info_WATCK1.html

Looks like it works the same way as a samovar. Except a
samovar has a tap at the bottom and is not at all practical
for camping.

 

[Peter Clinch]

Julian wrote:

> A nice solution would be a Kelly's kettle - you just need
> a couple of sheets of newspaper or a few twigs for loads
> of hot water.

Basic problem with a KK is if you're cooking anything more
elaborate than water you'll have a bit of a partial success
on your hands. They're also pretty bulky and you need to be
somewhere with a supply of fuel. There often is such a
thing, but moorland camping doesn't lend itself to a supply
of dry twigs...

A pal has one which she uses for lunchtime brews when
paddling, so usually driftwood twigs and the bulk is a non-
issue. The main point in its favour is it has real
character, and while that's a nice thing it isn't really a
practical point. A liter thermos flask is a more practical
method of having a brew up on a tour IMHO, while a camping
stove should be able to cook more than one thing.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Ian G Batten]

In article <[email protected]>,
Simon Mason <[email protected]> wrote:
> Grow some barley, brew beer, distill it and burn the
> alcohol, very e-friendly

Inefficient, though, given the heat you'd need to distill it
with. I think the MSR Multifuel stove claims to be able to
burn diesel: I wonder if it would burn rape seed oil on the
same basis?

ian

 

[Peter Clinch]

Ian G Batten wrote:

> Inefficient, though, given the heat you'd need to distill
> it with. I think the MSR Multifuel stove claims to be able
> to burn diesel: I wonder if it would burn rape seed oil on
> the same basis?

The Primus Omnifuel will do diesel too, which the earlier
Multifuel didn't quite manage. The only reason they won't do
alcohol is (according to the blurb that comes with my MFS)
that they have yet to develop a sealant which is happy with
both petroleum and alcohol based fuels. You can have one or
the other, but not both. As long as rape seed oil is
chemically broadly comparable with petroleum spirits as far
as dissolving sealants goes I wouldn't be surprised if an
X-GK or Omnifuel would burn it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Julian]

> Basic problem with a KK is if you're cooking anything more
> elaborate than water you'll have a bit of a partial
> success on your hands.

Agreed - porridge or scrambled egg in a KK wouldn't work.

--

J u l i a n
__o
_`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

 

[Whingin' Pom]

On Thu, 6 May 2004 11:55:40 +0000 (UTC), Ian G Batten
<[email protected]> () wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Simon
>Mason <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Grow some barley, brew beer, distill it and burn the
>> alcohol, very e-friendly
>
>Inefficient, though, given the heat you'd need to
>distill it with.

You could use the heads from a vodka run to power it with.
Or just use the waste product from a neutral spirit run to
fuel it. If you factor in the energy (and money!) saved by
making your own vodka, it'd probably work out quite well. I
get 10 litres of 96% ethanol from a single run of my still.
The heads (mainly methanol) I currently use for cleaning
chains, lighting the fire etc. but you could easily use them
in a multi fuel stove.

--
Matt K Dunedin, NZ

 

[Ambrose Nankive]

In news:[email protected],
Peter Clinch <[email protected]> typed:
> Ian G Batten wrote:
>
>> Inefficient, though, given the heat you'd need to distill
>> it with. I think the MSR Multifuel stove claims to be
>> able to burn diesel: I wonder if it would burn rape seed
>> oil on the same basis?
>
> As long as rape seed oil is chemically broadly
> comparable with petroleum spirits as far as dissolving
> sealants goes I wouldn't be surprised if an X-GK or
> Omnifuel would burn it.

Rape seed oil needs synthetic seals as it rots rubber,
unlike petrodiesel, so it'd need to be checked. It'd be good
to burn vegetable oil for its ubiquity as well as its
environmental credentials.

A

 

[Peter Clinch]

Julian wrote:

> Agreed - porridge or scrambled egg in a KK wouldn't work.

You could /cook/ it, but subsequent extraction and cleaning
might be a "non-trivial task"... ;-/

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Colin Blackburn]

On Fri, 07 May 2004 22:09:27 +1200, Whingin' Pom
<[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 6 May 2004 11:55:40 +0000 (UTC), Ian G Batten
> <[email protected]> () wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>, Simon
>> Mason <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Grow some barley, brew beer, distill it and burn the
>>> alcohol, very e-friendly
>>
>> Inefficient, though, given the heat you'd need to distill
>> it with.
>
> You could use the heads from a vodka run to power it
> with. Or just use the waste product from a neutral spirit
> run to fuel it. If you factor in the energy (and money!)
> saved by making your own vodka, it'd probably work out
> quite well. I get 10 litres of 96% ethanol from a single
> run of my still.

The problem for us in the UK is that home distilling is
illegal and anyone posting here saying they did it would
probably have a swift visit from Customs and Excise who seem
to have more right to enter your house than the police.

Colin

 

[Ian G Batten]

In article <[email protected]>,
Just zis Guy, you know? <[email protected]> wrote:
> Didn't I read that it took more energy to make biodiesel
> than it contained?

If you find something for which that's not true, your Nobel
prize awaits.

ian

 

[Just Zis Guy]

On Thu, 6 May 2004 17:30:42 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>It'd be good to burn vegetable oil for its ubiquity as well
>as its environmental credentials.

Didn't I read that it took more energy to make biodiesel
than it contained?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

 

[Chris Malcolm]

Peter Clinch <[email protected]> writes:

>Julian wrote:

>> Agreed - porridge or scrambled egg in a KK wouldn't work.

>You could /cook/ it, but subsequent extraction and cleaning
>might be a "non-trivial task"... ;-/

You can get a KK accessory cooking grid (or make one
yourself), which you place over the fire can after removing
the kettle bit. The virtue of the kettle bit is fast
efficient water boiling. So you can boil the water in the
kettle, pour it into a pan, and then simmer the pan on the
grid over the fire can.
--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

 

[Mark South]

"Colin Blackburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> The problem for us in the UK is that home distilling is
> illegal and anyone posting here saying they did it
> would probably have a swift visit from Customs and
> Excise who seem to have more right to enter your house
> than the police.

You might even say they have a duty

But you're right, C&E do not appear to require a warrant, or
even reasonable suspicion.
--
Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
Ce poulet a une grenade!

 

[Just Zis Guy]

Ian G Batten wrote:

>> Didn't I read that it took more energy to make biodiesel
>> than it contained?

> If you find something for which that's not true, your
> Nobel prize awaits.

For differing definitions of the word "make". If you
interpret it as the energy input to turn rape seed into
biodiesel, then it's possible that the result would be more
energy in the end product than was consumed in its
manufacture. If you include the sunlight input and such,
obviously entropy dictates otherwise.

Not only do I know the laws of thermodynamics, I can
actually sing them!

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

Victory is ours! Down with Eric the Half A Brain!

 

[Julian]

On Fri, 07 May 2004 09:20:49 +0100, Peter Clinch <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Julian wrote:
>
>> Agreed - porridge or scrambled egg in a KK wouldn't work.
>
> You could /cook/ it, but subsequent extraction and
> cleaning might be a "non-trivial task"... ;-/
>
> Pete.

Kippers might be possible if you tied string round the tail
- wouldn't fancy tea or coffee afterwards though.

--

J u l i a n __o _`\(,_ (_)/ (_)