Campy 10s: overkill?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Kevin, Apr 24, 2003.

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  1. Kevin

    Kevin Guest

    Thanks to some interesting advice from this group i'm looking at getting a centuar or veloce gruppo
    on my new bike. i am setting the bike up mainly for commuting, light touring, longer weekend rides.
    A ten speed cassette just seems like a bit of overkill for me (right now i ride shimano 600 gruppo
    with a six speed freewheel...) Is there any advantage/disadvantage for choosing a 9 or a 10? I'm a
    bit concerned about the extreme dish that the 10 requires, but that may be ignorance on my part.
    what about future compatibility issues?

    thanks for your time. i look forward to hearing what people think!

    peace! kevin
     
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  2. [email protected] (Kevin) wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > Thanks to some interesting advice from this group i'm looking at getting a centuar or veloce
    > gruppo on my new bike. i am setting the bike up mainly for commuting, light touring, longer
    > weekend rides. A ten speed cassette just seems like a bit of overkill for me (right now i ride
    > shimano 600 gruppo with a six speed freewheel...) Is there any advantage/disadvantage for choosing
    > a 9 or a 10? I'm a bit concerned about the extreme dish that the 10 requires, but that may be
    > ignorance on my part. what about future compatibility issues?
    >
    > thanks for your time. i look forward to hearing what people think!
    >
    > peace! kevin

    IMHO, unless you are a *serious* racer (and even then its dubious), 10 speeds are overkill. The only
    real advantage it gives you is not having to skip a gear on a straight block 21-12 cassette.
    Wheeeeee!!! Big deal. The other advantage to riding 9-speed is that it will be a *lot* cheaper once
    all of those that *must* have the latest and greatest upgrade to 10. Then again there is the
    drawback that, like its predecessors 7/8 speeds, the 9-speed will probably become orphanized in the
    near future. Just my $0.02.
    - Boyd S.
     
  3. Paul J Pharr

    Paul J Pharr Guest

    It's subjective, depends. I personally liked the way campy hoods felt. I wasn't sure if 10's was an
    advantage, but the campy stuff I wanted was 10's. I hear Shimano is goin to 10's soon too. Either
    way, after riding a lot on 10's, my response to people who ask me why I got 10's is "cause they
    don't make an 11's yet..;)"

    Paul J Pharr

    "Kevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Thanks to some interesting advice from this group i'm looking at getting a centuar or veloce
    > gruppo on my new bike. i am setting the bike up mainly for commuting, light touring, longer
    > weekend rides. A ten speed cassette just seems like a bit of overkill for me (right now i ride
    > shimano 600 gruppo with a six speed freewheel...) Is there any advantage/disadvantage for choosing
    > a 9 or a 10? I'm a bit concerned about the extreme dish that the 10 requires, but that may be
    > ignorance on my part. what about future compatibility issues?
    >
    > thanks for your time. i look forward to hearing what people think!
    >
    > peace! kevin
     
  4. Kevin <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Thanks to some interesting advice from this group i'm looking at getting a centuar or veloce
    > gruppo on my new bike. i am setting the bike up mainly for commuting, light touring, longer
    > weekend rides. A ten speed cassette just seems like a bit of overkill for me (right now i ride
    > shimano 600 gruppo with a six speed freewheel...) Is there any advantage/disadvantage for choosing
    > a 9 or a 10? I'm a bit concerned about the extreme dish that the 10 requires, but that may be
    > ignorance on my part. what about future compatibility issues?

    The Campagnolo hubs for 9 and 10-speed cassettes are the same, so there's no difference in the dish
    of the rear wheel. 10-speed groups have one more sprocket in the same overall size and use a
    narrower chain. The dish is for 9 and 10-speed wheels is extreme, as you say, so make sure whatever
    wheels you get are up for the task.

    Considering that only the "low-end" Campagnolo groups are 9-speed anymore, it's likely that those
    too are going to be 10-speed in the near(?) future. For me, this was the reason why I got 10-speed
    instead of 9 last year, but I'm not sure how valid the reason is. One more sprocket doesn't seem to
    make any real difference even for pro racers, as nine is plenty enough.

    -as
     
  5. Belij3

    Belij3 Guest

    > Is there any advantage/disadvantage for choosing a 9 or a 10? I'm a bit concerned about the
    > extreme dish that the 10 requires

    Get the 9's except for the wheel & cassette. Use Shimano 9 cassette. B
     
  6. The 10 speed chain is $10.00 more than the 9 speed chain.

    The 10 speed cassette seems to be almost $50.00 more than a 9 speed cassette.

    http://branfordbike.com/ still has 8 speed cassettes for sale, so I don't think that the
    availability of 9 speed parts is an issue.

    Allen Morris

    Kevin wrote:
    > Thanks to some interesting advice from this group i'm looking at getting a centuar or veloce
    > gruppo on my new bike. i am setting the bike up mainly for commuting, light touring, longer
    > weekend rides. A ten speed cassette just seems like a bit of overkill for me (right now i ride
    > shimano 600 gruppo with a six speed freewheel...) Is there any advantage/disadvantage for choosing
    > a 9 or a 10? I'm a bit concerned about the extreme dish that the 10 requires, but that may be
    > ignorance on my part. what about future compatibility issues?
    >
    > thanks for your time. i look forward to hearing what people think!
    >
    > peace! kevin
     
  7. John Carrier

    John Carrier Guest

    >Is there any advantage/disadvantage for choosing a 9 or a 10? I'm a bit concerned about the
    >extreme dish that the 10 requires, but that may be ignorance on my part. what about future
    >compatibility issues?

    Not really. Dish is the same. I was attempting to buy 9sp when 10sp was first introduced ... Campy
    wasn't shipping the parts (or not very many at the time) so I went 10sp out of necessity, it was
    what was available.

    I found the 10sp is a bit easier to set up than 9. The ratios available don't put an extra cog into
    the middle of the block, but offer either a bailout gear ... or another bailout gear depending upon
    your point of view ... or a really TALL gear (11T). I rode a 12-21 9sp and would have been happy to
    put together a 12-23 ... there ain't no such animal, nor can you build one. I have an 11-23 but lost
    the 18T I used and got a 23 bailout and an 11T I don't need.

    Cassettes and chains are a bit more expensive. There are a couple aftermarket 10sp chains that use a
    more serviceable master link (but the IRD version skips on the 11T cog if you go that route).

    Bottom line, 9sp will probably become less and less common (rumor of Shimano
    10/11 sp?), but it's not because of any inherent advantage to 10sp. I seem to recall Lance defeated
    all 10sp equipped comers while equipped with "only" nine speeds.

    R / John
     
  8. Suzy Jackson

    Suzy Jackson Guest

    "Kevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > Is there any advantage/disadvantage for choosing a 9 or a 10?

    Advantages of choosing 9 speed: Much cheaper cassettes, much cheaper chain, which doesn't wear out
    as quickly. Choice of a large number of other manufacturers chains, which often work better and are
    cheaper than the Campy ones.

    Advantages of choosing 10 speed: An extra bailout gear, pose value? Pose value probably worked back
    when they first introduced ten speed, but there are so many of them around now you really need the
    carbon crankset and seatpost to qualify as a proper poser :)

    > I'm a bit concerned about the extreme dish that the 10 requires,

    Ten speed and nine speed share the exact same hubs. The differences between them are as follows:

    The cassette, which uses narrower sprockets and narrower spacers to squeeze yet another sprocket
    in, The chain, which is narrower to work with the cassette, The right ergo, which has 10 notches
    on the indexing cog rather than 9, The rear derailleur, which has almost imperceptibly narrower
    pulleys, The large chainring, which is offset to the left by 0.3mm, The front derailleur, which
    has a plastic insert to make it work better with the narrower chain.

    Just because the higher end Campy groups are sold as ten speed doesn't mean you have to run them
    that way. In order to change a ten speed group to nine speed takes about 10 minutes work for a
    decent mechanic. All that needs to be done is to change the ergo cog, and substitute a nine speed
    cassette and chain. The bike shop should do this for free, as they're making on the deal, by giving
    you a cheaper chain and cassette. The plastic insert can be popped out of the front derailleur in
    seconds, and the differences in the chainring and derailleur pulleys are so slight that they work
    equally well with nine or ten speeds. So don't for a moment think you're forced to the bottom of the
    line groups because you want nine speed.

    > what about future compatibility issues?

    Campy stopped making eight speed groups about seven or eight years ago, yet still make cassettes for
    those groups. Even if Campy were to stop making all nine speed parts tomorrow, it wouldn't mean a
    nine speed group is orphaned. All you would need to do is change the ergo cog for a ten speed one,
    and put on a ten speed cassette and chain, and off you go.

    Regards,

    Suzy

    --
    ---
    Suzy Jackson [email protected] http://www.suzyj.net
     
  9. Paul J Pharr wrote:

    "I hear Shimano is goin to 10's soon too."

    Heaven help us all!! <sigh>

    May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

    Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
     
  10. As far as I'm concerened, 8 speed is overkill. since they never thought to increase the range of
    available cogs.

    AFAIC, it's all just another attempt to get a decent range out of corncob crossover gearing, which
    the manufacturers have been trying to push on all of us for decades.

    (Please excuse the ranting of this frustrated tourist who has spent 30 mostly frustrating years
    designing his own gearing ;-3) )

    May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

    Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
     
  11. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Antti Salonen wrote:
    > Kevin <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> A ten speed cassette just seems like a bit of overkill for me (right now i ride shimano 600
    >> gruppo with a six speed freewheel...) Is there any advantage/disadvantage for choosing a 9
    >> or a 10?

    10sp would be useful with a double crankset for those who like close ratio gears _and_ a wide range.

    /snip
    > Considering that only the "low-end" Campagnolo groups are 9-speed anymore

    That's not actually true yet. The full range of up-to-date Centaur, Chorus and Record 9-speed
    components is still available. It's amazing that so many people don't realise this. Just because the
    press and many dealers don't mention and offer it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Note. No major
    changes have been made to the main components since 2001. See: http://www.campagnolo.com/psearch.php
    and http://www.parker-international.co.uk/components.htm - Campag

    > , it's likely that those too are going to be 10-speed in the near(?) future.

    Veloce 2004 is rumoured to be 10sp (or to have a 10sp option).

    For the OP, I suggest getting 9sp equipment while you can, with one or two spare cassettes if using
    Centaur and above cassettes. These are bound to become more scarce and expensive soon.

    ~PB
     
  12. Jon Isaacs

    Jon Isaacs Guest

    >As far as I'm concerened, 8 speed is overkill. since they never thought to increase the range of
    >available cogs.
    >
    >AFAIC, it's all just another attempt to get a decent range out of corncob crossover gearing, which
    >the manufacturers have been trying to push on all of us for decades.
    >
    >(Please excuse the ranting of this frustrated tourist who has spent 30 mostly frustrating years
    >designing his own gearing ;-3) )
    >
    >May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris
    >
    I agree with you but since those of us who are satisfied with what we have don't buy new bikes, the
    market is governed by those who believe there is some reason to avoid half step shifting in their
    quest for close ratio gearing.
    <g>^.5

    Jon Isaacs
     
  13. k-coleman-<< Thanks to some interesting advice from this group i'm looking at getting a centuar or
    veloce gruppo on my new bike. i am setting the bike up mainly for commuting, light touring, longer
    weekend rides. A ten speed cassette just seems like a bit of overkill for me.

    I think more than 6 pr 7 cogs in the back is over kill but like it or not Campagnolo and shimano
    are moving toward an all 10s rear cluster setup. 10s will allow you to have the pretty normal
    12-23, with a 25 bailout cog...or a 13-26 with cogs really together mostly with a very useful 18t
    cog in the
    middle.

    << I'm a bit concerned about the extreme dish that the 10 requires, but that may be ignorance on my
    part. what about future compatibility issues?

    The hub dimension is the almost same as the 8s Campagnolo hubs...and the 9s hubs are also 10s
    compatible..We build dozens of 9/10s rears w/o any problems...

    I think the Centaur groupset is a great idea...all the function of Record with a wee bit more weight
    and 1/2 the price.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  14. chris-<< "I hear Shimano is goin to 10's soon too."

    Heaven help us all!!

    help the bike shop guy that buys spare parts.

    DA is 10s for 2004, with the need for new shifters, new hub(may not be the case), rapid rise rear
    der(backfire plus), cogset and chain...yikes...back to DA 8s non-compatibility....

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  15. gam-<< The 10 speed chain is $10.00 more than the 9 speed chain.

    IRD 10s chain is $24.

    << The 10 speed cassette seems to be almost $50.00 more than a 9 speed cassette.

    Chorus 9s casstte is $75, Chorus 10s casette is $95

    We have 8s Cmapagnolo cassettes as well...

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  16. suzy-<< Advantages of choosing 9 speed: Much cheaper cassettes, much cheaper chain, which doesn't
    wear out as quickly.

    real info please.....

    IRD 10s chain is $24, campagnolo 9s chain is the same price, Sram PC-89 is more.

    Chorus 10s casettes are about $15-$20 more than the Chorus 9s casette. Check out how much a 10s
    individual cog is(I just bought a 12t-$18)...

    Wear of Campagnolo or IRD 10s chains is the same as any 9s chain, shimano, SRAM, Campagnolo, as
    measureed by a Rohloff chain checker.

    << Choice of a large number of other manufacturers chains, which often work better and are cheaper
    than the Campy ones.

    Campagnolo, SRAM(for 2004), IRD, Wipperman all make 10s chains..Sram, shimano, Campagnolo, Wipperman
    make 9s chains...

    Large number? and they don't work any better in my experience.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  17. Bfd

    Bfd Guest

    [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > suzy-<< Advantages of choosing 9 speed: Much cheaper cassettes, much cheaper chain, which doesn't
    > wear out as quickly.
    >
    > real info please.....
    >
    > IRD 10s chain is $24, campagnolo 9s chain is the same price, Sram PC-89 is more.
    >
    Agree, most chain mfrs will offer "cheaper" 10s chains as Shimano will be joining Campy with 10cogs
    in 2004...

    > Chorus 10s casettes are about $15-$20 more than the Chorus 9s casette. Check out how much a 10s
    > individual cog is(I just bought a 12t-$18)...
    >
    In contrast, Campy 9s cassettes are definitely cheaper. If you want or don't mind "loose individual
    steel cogs", Campy Veloce 9s cassette cost anywhere from $32-50, quite a bit cheaper than
    Chorus/Centaur
    10s. However, I would assume that Veloce/Mirage will eventually go to 10, in which case 10s cassette
    "should be" cheaper....
     
  18. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > DA is 10s for 2004, with the need for new shifters, new
    hub(may not be the
    > case), rapid rise rear der(backfire plus), cogset and
    chain...yikes...back to
    > DA 8s non-compatibility....

    Do you think the cog spacing will be Campy compatible, like the 9sp stuff is?

    Matt O.
     
  19. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > Matt-<< Do you think the cog spacing will be Campy
    compatible, like
    > the 9sp stuff is?
    >
    > I think it will be, there just isn't a lot of room to put
    10 cogs back there so
    > I think it'll be very campagnolo similar...Surprized
    shimano didn't opt for 11s
    > tho-perhaps that would have needed a new hub...

    Actually at first I heard they were going for 11, but word now seems to be 10.

    At any rate, it would be great to be able to swap wheels between the two, like you can with the 9 sp
    setups. I'd buy a 9 before a 10 right now, because of that. Either one is overkill, so might as well
    go for compatibility!

    Matt O.
     
  20. On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:28:13 -0400, Chris Zacho The Wheelman wrote:

    > AFAIC, it's all just another attempt to get a decent range out of corncob crossover gearing, which
    > the manufacturers have been trying to push on all of us for decades.
    >
    > (Please excuse the ranting of this frustrated tourist who has spent 30 mostly frustrating years
    > designing his own gearing ;-3) )

    Actually, these days wide range, close ratio crossover gearing works very well indeed for tourings.
    No need for frustration: try something like a
    24/36/48 chainset with a Sheldon Brown Century Special 13-30 9-speed cassette. This gives a range
    from about 21" low to 100" top, 30" gear on the middle ring/large rear, and the spacing is
    nice and close where you need it close.

    This is, of course, Shimano gearing, not Campagnolo.
     
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