Campy 11 speed EPS & Shimano 11 speed cassette ?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by BikeyGuy, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. BikeyGuy

    BikeyGuy New Member

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    I presently have a SRAM 10 speed road setup.
    I am wanting to upgrade to Campy 11 speed EPS.
    I want to use with the 11 speed Shimano cassette, in order to keep my present wheels and not have to change cassette hub body.

    My question...

    Will the Campy EPS work with an 11 speed Shimano cassette ?
    Also, do you think it would work with a 10 speed SRAM/Shimano cassette ?

    Thanks.
     
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  2. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    The spacing on the Shimano flavor is likely to be different than the Campy. What you can do is call or email Wheels Manufacturing. They sell Shimano cassettes respaced to work with Campy. If they don't have any, yet, for Shimano 11 spd (and it's likely they don't), they'll be able to respace a cassette you send them. I'm using a 10 spd respaced Shimano cassette that I bought from them to use with my Campy Record setup. I wanted an 11-27, and Campy didn't make that for 10 speed. It works just as well as a Campy cassette.
     
  3. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    I want to use with the 11 speed Shimano cassette, in order to keep my present wheels and not have to change cassette hub body.

    Good question.

    The new Shimano 11-speed stack will not mount up to your current cassette hub body in any event.

    The new shimaNO 11-speed stack requires a freehub body 1.85 MM wider than your SRAM/shimaNO current hub. You could delete the 11 gear and run a 1 MM spacer behind the stack (as done by Wayne Stetina for Shimano prototype trials), but what would be the sense in that?

    Campy narrowed up their gear spacing on the 11-speed rig and they fit on the same width hub that the 10-speed cassette stack did. shimNO must have went with a wider gear spacing...and thus the longer cassette hub being required.

    Also of interest is the drawing of the 131 MM (as opposed to the current 130 MM standard and 135 MM disc hub standards) hub over-locknut 11-speed hub floating around on the web.

    Perhaps swapping to Campy cassette hub bodies and running Campy gears?
     
  4. BikeyGuy

    BikeyGuy New Member

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    [SIZE=small](The new Shimano 11-speed stack will not mount up to your current cassette hub body in any event.[/SIZE])

    That's new info for me.
    Thanks.

    Creates a new strategy.
     
  5. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    You never know...things 'may' change from the prototype/FAE pre-production configuration to the general public release, but as of now it looks like the new shimaNO 11-speed is going to require using a new, 1.80 MM wider freehub body. The 131 MM wide hub and new hub spoke flange dimensions are just...weird. http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/05/01/11-speed-road-bike-hubs-versus-10-speed-tech-breakdown/
     
  6. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Check with Wheels Manufacturing. When they modify Shimano cassettes to work with Campy on Shimano hubs, they change the spacing on the cassette which likely results in narrower cassette.
     
  7. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    shimaNO did not thin down the cassette gear thickness. They left the chainrings and cassette gears at the 10-speed thickness and did not thin the chain down. It may be possible to re-space the cassette gears to Campagnolo spacing, but will there still be gap enough for that wider shimaNO chain to run in and still shift correctly? There's .071" to delete, as a minimum to get the stack to tighten up on a standard 10-speed SRAM/shimNO cassette body. Will a Campagnolo chain run over the wider shimano cassette gears and still shift correctly? Lots of unknowns, as this stuff isn't in consumer hands yet...at least in any numbers. Like I said...good question. Paging Mr. Eng...Paging Mr. Alf Eng! Please pick up the white courtesy phone.
     
  8. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    The following is probably not for the CAMPAGNOLO ONLY people ...

    And, my friends-in-Vicenza are probably not going to like this ...

    But, sight unseen, let me be the first to say that I do believe that an 11-speed Shimano Cassette can be indexed to-and-by an 11-speed Campagnolo EPS-or-mechanical shifter-and-derailleur!


    ---------------------

    With the choice of the beholder being EITHER ...


    • past performance is no assurance of future performance

    OR

    • past is prologue

    GIVEN: The width of the current 11-speed Campagnolo Cassette is posted as being 40.1mm.

    There ARE unknowns, but by my reckoning, if one extrapolates from the currently available data then the probable width of an 11-speed SHIMANO Cassette will be 39.0(+/-)mm.

    WOW!

    Tolerances be damned ...

    I would think that a theoretical 0.1mm variance in cog spacing is probably close-enough for an 11-speed Di2 drivetrain, too!?!

    Regardless, it's NOT just because I have mated Campagnolo shifters with various Shimano Cassettes, but because WHEELS MANUFACTURING clearly found that they could use a 9-speed Shimano Cassette in 10-speed Campagnolo drivetrains ...

    • Yes, much to my surprise, I have even put a wheel with a 10-speed Campagnolo Chorus Cassette in a frame set up for a 9-speed Shimano Cassette without needing to make ANY adjustments!?! I didn't even need to change the high-low stops on the particular setup. While THAT was only a workstand test, if past is prologue then I don't see why it wouldn't translate to the Road.

    Of course, in the past, MAVIC's neutral support was undoubtedly a wheel with a 9-speed Shimano Cassette; and possibly, is now a wheel with a 10-speed Shimano Cassette ...

    And, as we now know, alienator's current rear wheel apparently works flawlessly with a Wheels Manufacturing 10-speed Shimano-as-Campagnolo Cassette since he has, in the past, not understood what I was talking about when I declared that I thought that one reason that a 9-speed Shimano Cassette may have worked so well with 10-speed Campagnolo shifters was due to the superior ramping on the Shimano Cogs (particularly in the past, when Campagnolo cogs were barely ramped).

    Of course, it appears that Campagnolo has finally seen the benefit of ramping-and-profiling the teeth on their cogs ... nonetheless, I have to believe that Shimano's ramping may always be superior (at least, for the foreseeable future).

    Of course, individuals whose wheels currently have Campagnolo-compatible Freehub bodies need not look to the yet-to-be-available 11-speed Shimano wheels ...

    And, I suppose that one could suggest that it might be possible to borrow a Campagnolo wheel + 11-speed Campagnolo Cassette for an 11-speed Di2 drivetrain ... HMmmm. Our friends-in-Osaka are probably not going to be happy about people choosing THAT option.

    Of course, the high-low stops may need to be reset with the non-authorized wheelset.

    The long-and-short is that the wise shopper who happens to have an 11-speed Campagnolo drivetrain can probably opt for an 11-speed Shimano-compatible rear wheel + an asymmetric Shimano 11-speed chain (regardless on the latter because Campagnolo chains just aren't worth the premium, IMO) as an alternative to a Camapgnolo-compatible rear wheel ... particularly, because Shimano Cassettes are typically available with a wider range + are often less expensive.

    ALAS. Someone will have to sponsor ME before I migrate my drivetrains to 11-speed.
     
  9. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Let me reinforce this point since you've taken what I said out of context and added your own, different meaning: Campy cassettes and the Wheels Mfg Shimano cassette shift equally well on my bike. I never indicated otherwise.
     
  10. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Well, you STILL miss the particular point ...

    FYI. The ONLY DIFFERENCE between the spider on the Wheels Manufacturing Cassette is having been machined on the large cog side so that it will sit more inboard on the Freehub ... the spacing is the same as on an unaltered Cassette ...

    • I made a direct comparison between a 9-speed, 12-27 Ultegra Cassette + a modified to 10-speed Wheels Manufacturing Cassette ... I had both.

    The loose spacers are thinner on the WM 10-speed Cassette than the normal Shimano 9-speed spacers ...

    The lockring was machined down so that it would fit ...

    Despite the dodgy spacing which is NOT the same as one would find on a stock 10-speed Campagnolo Cassette, it works "equally well" according to you ... and, I believe THAT can be attributed to the superior ramping on Shimano's Cogs.

    Now, the easiest way to see what difference ramping makes would be to find an older, 8-speed of any variety (Shimano or Campagnolo) & compare the shifting of a Cassette whose cogs are unramped with the shifting when the cogs are ramped ...

    • EVEN if the indexing is OFF with a Cassette which has ramped cogs, a shift will occur (at least, with Campagnolo shifters) ... better with some than others ...
    • if the indexing is off then with unramped Cogs there will be a lot of balking, and the shift may-or-may-not occur (even with Campagnolo shifters).
     
  11. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Alf!

    I wondered if Wheels Manufacturing went to the bother of un-riveting Campy's double-triple inner stacks to re-space or whether they just winged it. Lordy! In the old days we just fished for a gear and listened to the music the chain played...we only had 5 close-ratio gears because our derailleurs couldn't wrap shit! And we were thankful! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    Regardless...for crying out loud! Let's all get with the program here, people! Campy goes with...Campy! Leave that shimaNO stuff for Alf to research weird combinations with...like, 11-speed EPS derailleurs with a SRAM chain on a shimaNO 10-speed cassette stack and an Ultegra Di2 battery pack coupled to an old Mavic charger. And a wheel improperly dished 3 MM to the off-drive side with a 1 MM spacer stuffed behind the right side BB86 crank bearing.

    And yes, I'm jonesing to try EPS! I hope the prices drop for the after-Christmas sales or I'll have to wait until next fall.
     
  12. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Albert, 9 sped cassettes have nothing to do with using a Wheels Mfg. 10-spd Shimano conversion cassette in place of a 10 speed record cassette (in order to keep using a Shimano wheel).
     
  13. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Wow!!
    YOU must be very blissful ... The 9-speed Shimano Ultegra Cassette is the very heart of almost all of the Wheels Manufacturing 10-speed Campagnolo-Conversion Cassettes. I vaguely recall that there was a DA variant, but I doubt they sold too many of those. As I noted, previously, the only difference between the spiders is that on the sleeve on conversion spider is milled out by about 2mm [mine was "liberated" during a burglary, so it may have been closer to 1mm] to allow the Cassette to sit more inboard; the loose spacers are thinner, and the lockring's thickness was reduced.
    • AFAIK, the OTHER conversion Cassette was made by American Classic ... and, the "early" (at the time) word was that its shifting was not as good as with the Wheels Manufacturing Cassette ... undoubtedly, THAT was due to the cogs which were used whose ramping was not as good ... probably, vintage MICHE cogs which would have lacked the sophisticated ramping which Shimano cogs had begun to use around the fin de siecle.
    BTW. It has been good to read you echo what I have stated over the years that anyone-and-almost-everyone can do their own maintenance ... BUT, maybe YOU should spend a few minutes and actually start to do your own maintenance, too, rather than relying on an LBS, particularly since you are now far away from your most-favored Tucson LBS. YOU may learn a thing-or-two about your bike which you don't currently know.
     
  14. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    You must be so blissful.
     
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