Campy 9 to 8 conversion

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Paul Westall, May 28, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Paul Westall

    Paul Westall Guest

    What is a reasonable price for a bike shop to charge to rebuild a Campy 9 speed right ergo shifter
    to work with an 8 speed system? Are 8 speed shifters still readily available? TIA Paul
     
    Tags:


  2. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    "Paul Westall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > What is a reasonable price for a bike shop to charge to rebuild a Campy 9 speed right ergo shifter
    > to work with an 8 speed system? Are 8 speed shifters still readily available?

    $20 in service charges, $30 for an eight speed shift ring, maybe cables and tape, too. Possibly a
    set of springs as long as we are in there, $10.
    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  3. paul-<< What is a reasonable price for a bike shop to charge to rebuild a Campy 9 speed right ergo
    shifter to work with an 8 speed system? Are 8 speed shifters still readily available?

    We charge $35 for the 8s disc and $25 labor which includes a lever innard cleaning and lube.

    Regardless of what some 'web sites' will say, you don't need a rear der, pulleys, or chainrings
    either, if all are not worn out.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  4. Paul Kopit

    Paul Kopit Guest

    $25 plus parts.

    Shift disk, $35 G Springs $10.

    On Thu, 29 May 2003 00:53:47 GMT, "Paul Westall" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >What is a reasonable price for a bike shop to charge to rebuild a Campy 9 speed right ergo shifter
    >to work with an 8 speed system? Are 8 speed shifters still readily available? TIA Paul
     
  5. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > Regardless of what some 'web sites' will say, you don't need a rear der, pulleys, or chainrings
    > either, if all are not worn out.

    I tried an 1998 8sp Avanti mech with 2001 9sp Ergos: it indexed but not very well. I've now replaced
    mech with a Xenon and shifting is much better with perfect indexing. The derailleur geometry and
    amount of cable pull changed in 2001. That's fact, not myth or marketing propaganda.

    ~PB
     
  6. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > Pete-<< The derailleur geometry and amount of cable pull changed in 2001. That's fact, not myth or
    > marketing propaganda.
    >
    > Nope, it is myth and propbably propaganda.

    Let's get this clear please. Do 2001 Ergos pull the same amount of cable per click as 2000 Ergos?

    ~PB
     
  7. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    " Pete"-<< The derailleur geometry and amount of cable
    > pull changed in 2001. That's fact, not myth or marketing propaganda.

    "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Nope, it is myth and propbably propaganda., I have used 2003 rear
    ders(10s!!)
    > with 1992/3 ERGO(8s) and these have worked flawlessly. I have also
    installed
    > 2003 9 and 10s ERGO onto bicycles with 1994/5 rear ders, sameo, worked perfectly.
    >
    > The first carbon Record rear der i installed was onto Colby Pearce's 8s ERGO-worked just fine
    > than you...
    >
    > Don't believe eveything ya read on the 'net'. We know this stuff works cuz
    we
    > have tried it...

    " Pete"> << I tried an 1998 8sp Avanti mech with 2001 9sp Ergos: it indexed but not
    > very well.

    "Qui. . ."> All the above works with stuff that is not worn, i suspect the rear der was, or
    > else it should have worked.

    We also enjoy a high volume of service to better quality bicycles so we have many iterations of
    component substitution in our experience. We've done many replacements of levers, derailleurs,
    cables, chains and cassettes in all manner of Campagnolo gear trains.

    Drawing on that experience, Peter's right.

    Campagnolo current derailleurs drop seamlessly into post-1992 Campagnolo systems where there are not
    preexisting issues of rusty/bent/broken subassemblies. If your derailleur wasn't shifting well, it
    was more likely worn parts within that piece or elsewhere in the system rather than a compatibility
    problem per se. You'd be surprised how many rear changers are twenty degress out of vertical, for
    example (all brands of equipment) , the rider noting that it's "sluggish" or "worn out" but shifts
    crisply once more when aligned and adjusted properly. Markedly worn chain/cassettes also make bikes
    feel nearly new when belatedly replaced. That goes double for wires, casing and ferrules

    This year, in particular, we've added many of the new 92mm long-cage Campagnolo rears to older Ergo
    systems looking for lower gearing without incident.
    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  8. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > > Pete-<< The derailleur geometry and amount of cable pull changed in 2001. That's fact, not myth
    > > or marketing propaganda.

    > Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > > Nope, it is myth and propbably propaganda.

    "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Let's get this clear please. Do 2001 Ergos pull the same amount of cable per click as 2000 Ergos?

    Yes. And all the 1992 through 2003 Ergos, assuming same format ( 8, 9 or Ten)
    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  9. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    A Muzi wrote:
    > We also enjoy a high volume of service to better quality bicycles so we have many iterations of
    > component substitution in our experience. We've done many replacements of levers, derailleurs,
    > cables, chains and cassettes in all manner of Campagnolo gear trains.
    >
    > Drawing on that experience, Peter's right.

    ...about the subjective view that mismatches work acceptably.

    > Campagnolo current derailleurs drop seamlessly into post-1992 Campagnolo systems where there are
    > not preexisting issues of rusty/bent/broken subassemblies. If your derailleur wasn't shifting
    > well, it was more likely worn parts within that piece or elsewhere in the system rather than a
    > compatibility problem per se. You'd be surprised how many rear changers are twenty degress out of
    > vertical, for example (all brands of equipment) , the rider noting that it's "sluggish" or "worn
    > out" but shifts crisply once more when aligned and adjusted properly.

    I tried all kinds of adjustments with the derailleur. It was actually shifting crisply but by the
    wrong amount - just enough out to cause some un-natural noise. This was with brand new Mirage Ergos,
    chain & cassette in very good condition. All was ok after fitting a new Xenon derailleur and making
    no other changes. Perhaps derailleur wear made the problem worse but I'm not convinced that there
    wasn't more to it than that.

    These things aren't binary. It's not a case of something either working perfectly or working badly.
    There's always going to be a certain amount of play or error with any indexing system. I can only
    assume I'm being more fussy than others - but I still don't like the idea of adding more error than
    you have to.

    ~PB
     
  10. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    A Muzi wrote:

    >> Let's get this clear please. Do 2001 Ergos pull the same amount of cable per click as 2000 Ergos?
    >
    > Yes. And all the 1992 through 2003 Ergos, assuming same format ( 8, 9 or Ten)

    According to the Feb/Mar issue of the CTC's Cycle magazine, that is incorrect. Older 9-speed Campag
    systems had a cable ratio of 70% with
    3.19mm being pulled per gear. Current 9sp: 67%, 3.05mm.

    Also, Campagnolo stated the 2001 components had a "new index mechanism". Surely that would be too
    much of a massive blatant lie to get away with. I accept that some people report the difference
    doesn't matter in practice, but denying it even exists is something else!

    It's easy to get a Campag system working well enough for the chain to shift to and stay in the next
    gear when the Ergo lever or button is pushed, but I find even with all-new matched components,
    tolerance is tight for acheiving noise-free operation. It doesn't take much error for the chain to
    slightly rub an adjacent sprocket.

    I don't believe what I experienced was entirely due to derailleur wear. An slight index error was
    obvious to me - with the error "moving" to a different part of the cassette when I adjusted the
    cable. This is a classic symptom of incorrect index (and cable was anchored correctly).

    I'm not certain if the 10-speeds changed as well or not (I think not). If not, then perhaps some
    confusion is arrising from this.

    ~PB
     
  11. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > Pete-<< Let's get this clear please. Do 2001 Ergos pull the same amount of cable per click as
    > 2000 Ergos?
    >
    > Don't know, never measured them. I DO know that the combos I have mentioned DO work, because I
    > have done them, on many customer's bicycles. i can run down the various combinations if you like
    > or Andy Muzi can or any other wrench that has actually tried this stuff, not just read something
    > and accept it.

    "Work" is subjective. You mean they work to your standard.

    I didn't "just accept it". I tried using a pre 2001 dereraiileur with new Ergos - because I read
    here that it would "work fine". Well, it doesn't work well enough for me. I could have save some
    money on shipping if I had bought the mech with the Ergos in the first place.

    ~PB
     
  12. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > A Muzi wrote:
    > >> Let's get this clear please. Do 2001 Ergos pull the same amount of cable per click as 2000
    > >> Ergos?
    > >
    > > Yes. And all the 1992 through 2003 Ergos, assuming same format ( 8, 9 or Ten)

    "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > According to the Feb/Mar issue of the CTC's Cycle magazine, that is incorrect. Older 9-speed
    > Campag systems had a cable ratio of 70% with
    > 3.19mm being pulled per gear. Current 9sp: 67%, 3.05mm.
    >
    > Also, Campagnolo stated the 2001 components had a "new index mechanism". Surely that would be too
    > much of a massive blatant lie to get away with. I accept that some people report the difference
    > doesn't matter in practice, but denying it even exists is something else!
    >
    > It's easy to get a Campag system working well enough for the chain to shift to and stay in the
    > next gear when the Ergo lever or button is pushed, but I find even with all-new matched
    > components, tolerance is tight for acheiving noise-free operation. It doesn't take much error for
    > the chain to slightly rub an adjacent sprocket.
    >
    > I don't believe what I experienced was entirely due to derailleur wear. An slight index error was
    > obvious to me - with the error "moving" to a different part of the cassette when I adjusted the
    > cable. This is a classic symptom of incorrect index (and cable was anchored correctly).
    >
    > I'm not certain if the 10-speeds changed as well or not (I think not). If not, then perhaps some
    > confusion is arrising from this.

    Yes, that's the spec but as Peter also notes, such a small variance is lost in the noise of a gear
    system. In our experience this isn't a compromise. There's 0.14mm but 0.14mm in a gear system is
    hard to notice.

    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  13. On Sat, 31 May 2003 13:11:46 -0500, "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Yes, that's the spec but as Peter also notes, such a small variance is lost in the noise of a gear
    >system. In our experience this isn't a compromise. There's 0.14mm but 0.14mm in a gear system is
    >hard to notice.

    Yeah, but in a 9 speed the error is at absolute minimum 4 times .14 mm, equals .56 mm, at both
    ends of the cassette, when it's set properly for the middle one. Still, though, half a mm seems
    like not so much.

    Jasper
     
  14. Jay

    Jay Guest

    I did a little math just to figure out what the alignment error would be at the jockey wheels.

    Basically what you end up with is a error of 1.8mm or .070 inches. This is the equivalent of width
    of a sprocket on a 9sp cassette. If you tune the system to the fifth gear in the center of the
    cassette, then you have half the error on either end. I can understand how the functionality could
    be questioned.

    This is also about the same amount of error that is created when you mix a campy system with a
    shimano wheel on a 9sp system.

    Jay

    "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > A Muzi wrote:
    > > >> Let's get this clear please. Do 2001 Ergos pull the same amount of cable per click as 2000
    > > >> Ergos?
    > > >
    > > > Yes. And all the 1992 through 2003 Ergos, assuming same format ( 8, 9 or Ten)
    >
    >
    > "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > According to the Feb/Mar issue of the CTC's Cycle magazine, that is incorrect. Older 9-speed
    > > Campag systems had a cable ratio of 70% with
    > > 3.19mm being pulled per gear. Current 9sp: 67%, 3.05mm.
    > >
    > > Also, Campagnolo stated the 2001 components had a "new index mechanism". Surely that would be
    > > too much of a massive blatant lie to get away with. I accept that some people report the
    > > difference doesn't matter in practice, but denying it even exists is something else!
    > >
    > > It's easy to get a Campag system working well enough for the chain to shift to and stay in the
    > > next gear when the Ergo lever or button is pushed, but I find even with all-new matched
    > > components, tolerance is tight for acheiving noise-free operation. It doesn't take much error
    for
    > > the chain to slightly rub an adjacent sprocket.
    > >
    > > I don't believe what I experienced was entirely due to derailleur wear. An slight index error
    > > was obvious to me - with the error "moving" to a different part of the cassette when I adjusted
    > > the cable. This is a classic symptom of incorrect index (and cable was anchored correctly).
    > >
    > > I'm not certain if the 10-speeds changed as well or not (I think not).
    If
    > > not, then perhaps some confusion is arrising from this.
    >
    >
    >
    > Yes, that's the spec but as Peter also notes, such a small variance is
    lost
    > in the noise of a gear system. In our experience this isn't a
    compromise.
    > There's 0.14mm but 0.14mm in a gear system is hard to notice.
    >
    > --
    > Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  15. Suzy Jackson

    Suzy Jackson Guest

    Here's an interesting point,

    According to a recent post, cable pull for old Campy 9 speed levers is
    3.19mm per indent, while that for new levers is 3.05mm per indent.

    Now according to Sheldons website, the sprocket separation is 4.55mm for Campy 9 speed, and 4.34mm
    for Shimano 9 speed.

    So given all these numbers, I couldn't help multiplying things out to see what happens.

    If you use old levers with a new derailleur, you end up with 4.75mm per indent at the cassette.
    Tolerable I guess for use with Campy cassettes, but I imagine it would really suck if you tried to
    use a friends Shimano wheel.

    Now the neat bit happens when you mix new levers and old derailleurs. Here we get 4.36mm per indent,
    which is within a gnats whisker of Shimano spacing. So your campy wheels run so-so, but Shimano ones
    index perfectly. Indeed, ones Campy wheel could be made to run quite well by putting in the
    occasional 10 speed or shimano 9 speed spacer, rather than the Campy 9 speed spacer. A cassette made
    up of loose cog Campy 9 sprockets with Shimano spacers comes out pretty darned close, at 4.31mm.

    Interesting stuff.

    Regards,

    Suzy

    --
    ---
    Suzy Jackson [email protected] http://www.suzyj.net
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...