Campy brifters with Shimano cassette - this should work?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Dr Lodge, May 23, 2012.

  1. Dr Lodge

    Dr Lodge New Member

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    I've been looking to get some Shimano Sora 7 speed brifters to replace the downtube shifters, which will go with my Shimano 7 speed cassette. A pair of these brifters went on Ebay yesterday for £90...I was not going to pay that amount!

    I have heard people using Shimano 8 speed brifters with a 7 speed cassette, since the compatibility difference is minor - 7 speed sprocket pitch is 5mm, with 8 speed its 4.8 mm.

    Then just now I saw this compatibility table http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946

    It shows that the campy 8 speed sprocket pitch is also 5mm, so I should be able to use my 7 speed cassette with Campy 8 speed brifters but also need Campy rear and front derailleur and just not use the lower cog position...yes? Or is there a catch I haven't spotted?
     
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  2. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it should work (particularly, if your cogs are ramped ... ramping is Shimano's unsung gift to the cycling world, IMO) ...

    And, I have recommended (and, I was just about to make THAT recommedation to someone else before my computer locked up!?!) using 10-speed CAMPAGNOLO shifters + 8-/9-speed SHIMANO rear derailleur in the past as an alternate to 8-speed Shimano shifters ... however I should note that I am quite certain that those recommendations have fallen on deaf-ears because mixing-and-matching is a leap-of-faith which most people don't want to make.

    FYI. You can use a "shortened" (i.e., missing-a-cog) 9-speed Shimano Cassette on a "compact" (or, older) Shimano Freehub body if you want a 9-speed indexing in a 126mm OLD hub (how the smallest cog is attached can be an issue ... Shimano's 'currentt" Compact Freehub bodies use the same lockring commonly used with most Shimano/-compatible Freehub bodies and can be retrofitted to most-but-not all Cassette-type Shimano rear hubs; but, not the one which has the "oil" hole-and-band, AFAIK).

    BTW. IMO, the only (?) reason to choose-or-use 8-speed Campagnolo shifters is because you either have them, already, or you like the style ('I' am not keen about the look or feel of the earliest style ... and, I'm still trying to wrap-my-head around the latest style; but, adaptation-by-me of the 'new' shifter-style is inevitable).

    If the 'new' Campagnolo shifter style works for you, then you can either get a 10-speed variant OR attach the rear derailleur cable at 9 o'clock on a 9-speed Shimano rear derailleur...

    If you have the First Generation SIS Dura Ace rear derailleurs, then its geometry is (by my reckoning ... but, maybe not) essentially the same as a current 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur; so, use the chart information, accordingly.

    You CAN use almost ANY front derailleur with Campagnolo shifters ... I have a pre-indexed Dura Ace front derailleur on one of my bikes ... it requires four indexing clicks instead of the three which a 6500/6503 front derailleur uses to move the chain between the inner & outer chainrings, and back.
     
  3. Dr Lodge

    Dr Lodge New Member

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    Thanks for the reply. The problem I have trying to run anything more than 7 speed is that I have a DuraAce uniglide freehub, and the cassettes/cogs that fit this freehub are as rare as hens teeth. Also, I cannot transplant a hyperglide body since this is a DuraAce free hub (refers to Sheldon Brown here). So I'm pretty much stuck other than trying the 8 speed campy solution I proposed.

    Another possible option which I would have to tinker with, is that I still have my orginal Shimano 600EX hubs, and it should be possible to transplant a hyperlide freehub onto this. If so, then I can try and get a 9/10 speed hyperglide cassette and use 8/9 of those gears. Then I get Shimano Brifters and away I go.
     
  4. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Quote:Originally Posted by Dr Lodge . ... The problem I have trying to run anything more than 7 speed is that I have a DuraAce uniglide freehub, and the cassettes/cogs that fit this freehub are as rare as hens teeth. Also, I cannot transplant a hyperglide body since this is a DuraAce free hub (refers to Sheldon Brown here). So I'm pretty much stuck other than trying the 8 speed campy solution I proposed.
    .

    FWIW. I have one of those old DA hubsets ... and, the ONLY (¿?) thing you need to do to change the cog spacing is to be able to remove the last cog (i.e., presuming that it isn't 'frozen' in place) ...

    Unlike what Sheldon Brown suggested where he recommends grinding down one spline to mimic the "registration" spline, 'I' recommend that you simply choose the Cassette which you want to cannibalize AND THEN enlarge the "registration" notches so that the Cassette's cogs will slide onto the old DA Freehub body. I have NOT actually done this because I opted for the Freehub body transplant on a different hub ...

    * A standard size FLAT BASTARD file should be suitable ...
    * A standard size half-round file can also be used ...

    Inexpensive "Chinese" files work as well as expensive files ... the limitation is in available sizes & variety of cutting 'teeth' ... about 30 years ago I paid about $5 for a single Nicholson Flat File which means that it probably costs $15+, now ... a 'set' of 6-or-more Chinese files currently costs between $6-and-$10+ (price varies depending on whether-or-not they are 'on sale" ... figure on £4-to-£6+ in the UK due to VAT ... ). Why pay more?!?

    Figure on a minute-or-so per individual notch regardless of which type of file you choose -- half-round files are generally coarser so you may-or-may-not save a few seconds if that's what you choose to use. You could use both the coarser half-round file to remove the "bulk" of the excess & the 'flat' file to tidy up the notch (if it matters to you).

    Figure on slightly more time if the Cassette you choose has cogs attached to spiders (e.g. Ultegra vs. 105 ... or, XT vs. LX).

    BTW.While it should be obvious which notch you have enlarged after-the-fact, it may be beneficial to mark the cogs BEFORE notching them to ensure that they are aligned the way Shimano originally set them.

    It is possible to reduce the size of the last cog ... several years ago, when I was more motivated, I took two 8-speed 11t Campagnolo cogs & narrowed them so they could be used for both a 9-speed & a 10-speed Cassette ... the former was used on a 12-23 9-speed which I restacked to 11-26, and the latter is sitting in one of my toolboxes ...

    HOWEVER, before 'I' would narrow the last cog for the DA Uniglide Freehub, I would see how well-or-poorly it shifted ... I think that since one could theoretically adjust the indexing so that it simply takes two clicks to move the chain onto the second cog AND back onto the smallest cog from the second cog by having a slighly slack rear derailleur cable it is all 'I' would do.



    PATIENCE is the key ...


    Quote:Originally Posted by Dr Lodge . Another possible option which I would have to tinker with, is that I still have my orginal Shimano 600EX hubs, and it should be possible to transplant a hyperlide freehub onto this. If so, then I can try and get a 9/10 speed hyperglide cassette and use 8/9 of those gears. Then I get Shimano Brifters and away I go.


    Swapping Freehub bodies on your 600EX hub is an option ... my first Freehub body swap was on one (it was a 126mm hub) when I was converting it to use 9-speed Cassettes BECAUSE (as you noted) the Freehub body on those early DA hubs do not lend themselves to transplants (HMMmmm. I think it is time for ME to revisit the possibility!?!).

    MY experience is that the rear hub needs to be laced to a rim otherwise it will be all but impossible to have counter-leverage against the 10mm Allen wrench ... one time, I managed to loosely lace a hub with only (?) about 18 (?) spokes to gain the necessary leverage.

    ALSO, I needed to use an 18" cheater bar to loosen the hollow bolt which secures the Freehub to the hub shell.

    BTW2 'I' strongly recommend that you opt for a set of Campagnolo shifters instead of a set of Shimano shifters because the Campagnolo shifters subjectively look better than most Shimano shifters ... PLUS, you won't have to worry about the front derailleur ... AND, I was (mis-)using (according to some!?!) Campagnolo shifters with Shimano drivetrains before I became aware of Chris Juden's 'matrix' ...

    And, I can assure you that Campagnolo shifters work exceptionally well with Shimano derailleurs & Cassettes ...

    FYI. In the course of testing the limitations which Campagnolo shifters may-or-may-not have when mated to an otherwise Shimano drivetrain, I eventually tested some old unramped-and-unpinned 130BCD chainrings on an Octalink crankset + 6500 front derailleur AND my conclusion is that the shifting was better than with a set of Shimano 6500 shifters + (the same) 6500 front derailleur + ramped 6500 chainrings.
     
  5. Dr Lodge

    Dr Lodge New Member

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    Thanks for your input, I think you are describing another option which I also thought of over night. I can get a 9 speed HG cassette and then canibalise the parts as follows to fit on my existing DA uniglide hub. I will check tonight whether my hub also has the HG internal threads for a lockring but I'm 95% sure it doesn't. However my hub looks very much like this one http://www.velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=0FF361BC-8EEF-4845-AC11-5AC2756C95D4&Enum=110&AbsPos=213 which according to the blurb does have HG compatibility; The first model sounds exactly like what I have "FH-7400 6/7 speed UniGlide (reduced diameter 31.8mm UG thread to allow 12T sprocket)". However my hub is 126mm not 130mm, but 6/7 speed is always 126mm? I am at work so will check when I get home, if I do have HG compatibility then its great news indeed since I can simply get a 9 speed HG cassette and use 8 cogs from 9.

    Photo from velobase:

    [​IMG]


    Here's a picture of my exact hubs before I had then made up into wheels; pretty similar to the above eh?

    [​IMG]


    Assuming I have to stick with the UG option, then my idea is similar if not the same to what you described:
    - New HG Cassette would ideally be something like 12-32 so the second largest cog is 28T (biggest my RD will take and which is what I need). Ideally a cassette with sprockets 12-13-14-16-18-21-24-28-32 but this is difficult to find. May be other options will work like 11-28 since I am not using the 2 smallest cogs, need to look into this further.
    - Current cassette is I think 12-27, the 12T and probably adjacent 13T sprockets are specific to this UG hub and so need to remain. This puts the spacing of the two smallest cogs a little wide as 7 speed spacing is 5mm, 9 speed spacing is only 4.34mm. I may therefore have difficulty shifting to the 13T and probably won't shift at all to the 12T but perhaps I can frig this (I will be using 9 speed brifters with 8 cogs so the additional "not used" position could be the low position and move the RD more than 1 cog to its stop to allow the 12T cog to engage). If these cogs are not available it doesn't matter since I hardly use them.
    - I the take some of the spockets from the new HG cassette together with the slimmer spacers and mix with the 2 smallest sprockets on my UG cassette as follows:
    - 12,13, use original UG sprockets
    - 14,16,18,21,24,28 sprockets from new HG cassette with the thinner 9 speed spacers
    - 32 sprocket gets chucked, so I'm using "8 from 9" configuration

    I then believe I need to use Shimano brifters with shimano RD since Campy has different lever/cable ratios and cable/movement ratios on the RD? I don't quite understand your last bit about using Campy brifters, I'm don't understand how this can work is the various ratios are different?
     
  6. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Quote:Originally Posted by Dr Lodge . I then believe I need to use Shimano brifters with shimano RD since Campy has different lever/cable ratios and cable/movement ratios on the RD? I don't quite understand your last bit about using Campy brifters, I'm don't understand how this can work is the various ratios are different?


    First, there is a lot of space between the chain's plates and the teeth on each cog ...

    Without getting too-deep-into-the-weeds, the relative geometry of the various generations of SHIMANO rear derailleurs was maintained between the 8-speed & 9-speed Shimano MTB rear derailleurs & fudged with the shorter parallelogram of the 9-speed Shimano Road rear derailleur by tweaking the Z-axis angle. The better 7-speed Shimano rear derailleurs appear to have had the same geometry as the 8-speed Shimano rear derailleurs EXCEPT you will find that they will have the same fat pulley wheels that earlier 5-and-6-speed rear derailleurs had.

    If you look at Chris Juden's matrix a little (or perhaps, a lot ...) more until it makes sense you will see that the "squares" are the product of the "row" multiplied by the "column" where the "Cable" PULL was measured ... the initial "Pitch" was probably measured, and the "Shift Ratio" subsequently extrapolated.

    The 11-speed Campagnolo shifter's pull rate was undoubtely measured and the "Pitch" was then interpolated.

    FWIW. One of my tests included using a 9-speed Shimano Cassette with a 9-speed Campagnolo shifter AND despite the matrix values it was apparently useable due to the ramping on the cogs BUT the chain only found 8 of the 9 cogs ...

    A ramped 8-speed SRAM Cassette could be used with a non-compatible setup BUT an older, unramped 8-speed Shimano Cassette could not be used unless the indexing was adjusted properly ...

    Meaning, the RAMPING is possibly as beneficial as the actual indexing.

    The long-and-short is that serendipitous parallelogram geometry + the RAMPING which is on Shimano 9-speed-and-later cogs and some later Shimano 8-speed cogs and (AFAIK) all SRAM cogs is the reason that the Campagnolo-shifter/Shimano-drivetrain mismatch works ...

    But, kids-don't-try-this-at-home with mismatched Shimano/Shimano setups OR sloppily indexed rear derailleurs because the "dwell" which I have lamented for years will more-than-likely result in balky shifting.

    .
     
  7. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Quote:Originally Posted by Dr Lodge . ... my hub looks very much like this one ... from velobase:

    [​IMG]



    Ah. I thought you had the first generation DA rear freehub which has the "oiler" hole + band ...

    I also have the 8-speed generation of DA rear hub ... mine has the capability of using a lockring ...

    The length of the pictured Freehub body is the same as on all current (pre-11 speed) Shimano rear Freehubs.

    I know that the "first generation" DA Freehub is secured to the hubshell with something other than the hollow 10mm bolt used on more recent Shimano rear hubs; but, without looking at the 8-speed Dura Ace rear hub that have, I am inclined to believe that "writers" may have been merely parroting the reality of the "first generation" Freehub connecting bolt rather than the knowing what the actual bolt is on the 7400 series hubs ...

    Of course, even if my apparently more recent 8-speed DA hub uses the "standard" 10mm Hollow Bolt, that doesn't mean that your DA rear hub does.

    FYI. I swapped a very similar Freehub body from a DX hub which may actually be the same as the Freehub body on your Dura Ace hub except for the imprint on the "dust cap" ...

    I think that there is a possibility that if your hub has the "dust cap" that it can be unthreaded (there should be to pin-holes which presumably facilitate unthreading the cap with a pin vice ... BUT, I did not
    try to remove the "dust cap" from my DX Freehub body because I was swapping it out for a "new" Freehub body) ... of course, there are no guarantees that the threading is the same as used for Cassette Lockrings.

    BTW. I moved the '1mm' (¿?¿) washer from the driveside to the non-driveside so that the Freehub's offset would be the same as with almost all other Shimano-compatible hubs and thereby make it possible to swap wheels without adjusting the rear derailleur's stops.

    BTW2. This may be stating the obvious, if you have not had your new wheelset built, yet, then you may want to wait until mid-July to see how Shimano specs their 11-speed rear hubs ...
     
  8. Dr Lodge

    Dr Lodge New Member

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    OK I've bitten the bullet and decided to go with a 7/8 gear setup since the spacing of 7 and 8 gears is nigh on the same (5mm vs 4.8mm), and will fit on my existing Dura Ace hub/wheel which I only just had built. I just need to get a dremmel or file to the UG sprockets and file off a wee bit off one of the splines.

    Ordered a NOS pair of 8 speed SORA brifters from Ebay, and 2 uniglidge cassettes (1 is 8 speed,1 is 9 speed). I will use the slighty slimmer sprockets off the 9 speed cassette with the 8 or old 7 speed spacers (1.8mm and 1.85mm), the 8 speed cassette was cheap as chips just in case (I get the spacers with it if nothing else), and I can play around with the 9 speed to see if I can actually fit 8 of the 9 sprockets in case I want to upgrade at a later date...which I doubt.
     
  9. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Quote:Originally Posted by Dr Lodge . OK I've bitten the bullet and decided to go with a 7/8 gear setup since the spacing of 7 and 8 gears is nigh on the same (5mm vs 4.8mm), and will fit on my existing Dura Ace hub/wheel which I only just had built. I just need to get a dremmel or file to the UG sprockets and file off a wee bit off one of the splines.



    OY!?!

    When I was extolling how great that 'I' think that RAMPED cogs are apparently I should instead have said that by comparison UN-RAMPED cogs are fakakta ...

    Because, EVEN IF the indexing is perfectly adjusted, the shifting will be better if the cogs are RAMPED, particularly with Shimano shifters.
    Quote: Ordered a NOS pair of 8 speed SORA brifters from Ebay, and 2 uniglidge cassettes (1 is 8 speed,1 is 9 speed). I will use the slighty slimmer sprockets off the 9 speed cassette with the 8 or old 7 speed spacers (1.8mm and 1.85mm), the 8 speed cassette was cheap as chips just in case (I get the spacers with it if nothing else), and I can play around with the 9 speed to see if I can actually fit 8 of the 9 sprockets in case I want to upgrade at a later date...which I doubt.


    FYI. I have successfully stacked eight-out-of-nine 9-speed Shimano cogs on a "Compact" (i.e., short) Shimano Freehub body which uses a "standard" LOCKRING ...

    Although your UG Freehub may never be able to use a Lockring, if you feel that you cannot securely thread the threaded cog onto your UG Freehub (the deficiency will be about "one" thread) when you stack seven 9-speed cogs onto it, then you can probably stack eight-or-possibly-nine 10-speed cogs onto it + the threaded cog with-or-without an additional spacer on the spoke side of the cluster ...

    AGAIN, you would simply adjust the rear derailleur cable so that it required TWO "clicks" to move the chain onto the second cog from off the smallest cog instead of one ...

    BTW. It's too bad you opted for the SORA shifters ... a second set of 10-speed Shimano shifters (continuity is a wonderful thing) OR a set of 9-speed Shimano shifters would probably have been better ...

    AND, a set of 10-or-11-speed Campaganolo shifters would have been best, IMO, because they can be successfully indexed to a greater variety of cog spacings ...

    et cetera.

    Of course, the ONE DIFFICULTY which you would undoubtedly experience if you were to get a set of Campagnolo shifters & mate them to an otherwise Shimano drivetrain is that you would find that they actually work BETTER than Shimano shifters function with an otherwise Shimano drivetrain ...

    Hopefully (and, IMO), you would never consider hobbling your Road bike(s) with SRAM components ... unless you are a sponsored rider to whom the components were given. that is.

    -----------------
    BTW. One of these days I'll try to track down my DX Freehub & see if the dust cap is attached with the same threading as the Lockrings use ... but, probably not anytime soon.
     
  10. Dr Lodge

    Dr Lodge New Member

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    Alfeng,

    My decision was based principally based on the fact that my exisiting Dura Ace hubbed wheels will not take a freehub transplant. therefore, as well as being a compact/7 speed freehub, it also has to take the original 2 smallest cogs which have integral 7 speed spacers. This means I can't do a 8 of 9, or 9 of 10 conversion, otherwise I most likely would have.

    I did have the option of using my old 600EX hubs and do a freehub transplant on them, but then I'd have to have another wheel made up - more expense.

    My new bike will have Campagnolo throughout though so don't despair. Just pondering whether its worth splashing out for Super Record, or be sensible and get Chorus.
     
  11. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Quote:Originally Posted by Dr Lodge .
    My decision was based principally based on the fact that my exisiting Dura Ace hubbed wheels will not take a freehub transplant. therefore, as well as being a compact/7 speed freehub, it also has to take the original 2 smallest cogs which have integral 7 speed spacers. This means I can't do a 8 of 9, or 9 of 10 conversion, otherwise I most likely would have.

    I did have the option of using my old 600EX hubs and do a freehub transplant on them, but then I'd have to have another wheel made up - more expense.

    My new bike will have Campagnolo throughout though so don't despair. Just pondering whether its worth splashing out for Super Record, or be sensible and get Chorus.


    Praise the Lord!

    Sorry for presuming that you would be outfitting your new bike with Shimano components ...

    ----------------------
    As far as the SECOND cog (if the splines don't extend far enough to use a "standard" cog in the second position), it can be thinned if you have the patience-and-wherewithall ... I may-or-may-not have mentioned this recently (who can remember?!?), but I had some extra, 8-speed 11t Campagnolo cogs (yeah, pretty rare at the time) & I thinned one to fit on a 9-speed stack & the other to fit on a 10-speed stack. This simply required a grinder + deft touch + FLAT File to "finish" it...

    BTW. I would be really surprised if you couldn't stack a shortened cassette onto your DA 7400 Freehub ...

    I think you will be very pleased with how well a 10-speed Campagnolo shifter + 9-speed Shimano stack works ...

    The ONLY (¿?¿) caveat is that you may-or-may-not need to update your rear derailleur with an 8-/9-speed Shimano rear derailleur.

    BTW. While there is certainly SOME difference between Chorus & Record , the differences which aren't cosmetic will likely not be noticeable to the average rider when actually in motion ...

    If you happen to choose a Chorus group and subsequently decide that you wish you had assembled your new bike with Record or Super Record or EPS of whichever level your wallet allows, then you can put the Chorus components on your older frameset!

    Post pics of your bike(s) when you can.
     
  12. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    BTW. Unfortunately, at some point, when one's budget allows, cosmetics CAN become an issue and/or DO matter ...

    Over time, my 80s vintage OLMO eventually had mostly "black" components ...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    But, when the BIANCHI Dolomiti was introduced with a similar appearance, I opted to swap back to non-black components ...

    Besides, I needed an excuse to swap out those DEDA Magic handlebars which I could just never get used to using ...

    [​IMG]

    Because Campagnolo components other than their BBs from the 80s & early 90s were disappointing (I do love the Monoplaner brake caliper design), no Campagnolo components which are contemporaneous with the frame were chosen.

    BTW. This is the frame whose wheels have the 7400 hubs (they must be the '7403' variant -- you can just barely see the rear hub in the following pic) ...

    [​IMG]

    The current rear derailleur is a 10-speed ("long" cage) 105 & the front derailleur is a 6503 + an 11-32 XT Cassette.
     
  13. DeSisti

    DeSisti New Member

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    I used to run a bike with Campag 8 speed levers with Shimano 7 speed cassette/hub and a Campag rear mech.
    That combo worked flawlessly.

    I now use Campag 10 speed levers, Campag rear mech, Shimano 9 cassette, Shimano 9/10 hub on all of my
    three bikes. Again, the combo works perfectly. Oh, for the record, they all use(d) Campag from mechs too.
     
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