Campy or Shimano?

[ridecycling]

Originally posted by fushman
im guessing youll be very happy when the rumors about a campy compact crank are confirmed huh?

the one point i can agree more or less on is that record and d/a aside, chorus is nicer than ultegra, and so on, of course they cost more too right?

I think Campy is making a smart move to go compact. There are other developements out there that will likely affect how road will change in the future. You have only to look back at all of the innovation that came out of the mountain bike industry that changed road forever - cassette hubs, hands on index shifting, the threadless headset, and so on and its only fitting that the 110mm bolt pattern mountain style triple sans the inner chainring migrate to road too. Along with the smaller rear cog, tighter gearing configuration it makes lots of sense. As a result I predict we will probably see more smaller front chainrings come out of the deal and move away from the now standard 53/39 to possibly 51/37 configs. As always the Japanese will wait then follow, or copy as they always do. But you have to remember most of the road changes came from mountain biking which basically came as ideas from the U.S. mostly out of California. So its not just about Campy and Shimano, but they have the power to offer what the market gets out of these ideas.

 

[fushman]

Originally posted by ridecycling
I think Campy is making a smart move to go compact. There are other developements out there that will likely affect how road will change in the future. You have only to look back at all of the innovation that came out of the mountain bike industry that changed road forever - cassette hubs, hands on index shifting, the threadless headset, and so on and its only fitting that the 110mm bolt pattern mountain style triple sans the inner chainring migrate to road too. Along with the smaller rear cog, tighter gearing configuration it makes lots of sense. As a result I predict we will probably see more smaller front chainrings come out of the deal and move away from the now standard 53/39 to possibly 51/37 configs. As always the Japanese will wait then follow, or copy as they always do. But you have to remember most of the road changes came from mountain biking which basically came as ideas from the U.S. mostly out of California. So its not just about Campy and Shimano, but they have the power to offer what the market gets out of these ideas.

campy is smart to offer a compact cause they can sell it; a full gruppo is cooler than a mixed one with a fsa or whatever crankset. i wouldnt want a 51-37 since i dont see any advantage. if i cant get up a hill on my double then i can train harder or ride a triple, and if i only had one bike id prolly make it a triple. also, im not making any claims to fame, but a 51 isnt big enough, if youre ever going to have a down hill or even some flats with a good tail wind.

 

[crystal_tears_]

Rode Shimano Ultegra for five years until i bought my new bike which is equipped with Campag Centaur. What a revelation ! Campag is the better groupset by far. Nicer finish, more positive shifting, superior brakes and the hoods are far more comfortable. Campag is actually less expensive than Shimano in England too
The one positive i'd give Shimano are their cranks and bottom brackets. The Ultegra ones are great value for money, much stiffer than Campag.
But having said this I'll never use Shimano again. I've been converted !

 

[ridecycling]

Originally posted by fushman
campy is smart to offer a compact cause they can sell it; a full gruppo is cooler than a mixed one with a fsa or whatever crankset. i wouldnt want a 51-37 since i dont see any advantage. if i cant get up a hill on my double then i can train harder or ride a triple, and if i only had one bike id prolly make it a triple. also, im not making any claims to fame, but a 51 isnt big enough, if youre ever going to have a down hill or even some flats with a good tail wind.

Wake up dude! 51x11 is a much bigger gear than a 53x12 or even a 53x13 which is what you would have to run if you did a 39x25 or 39x26 cogset with the smallest cog being 12 or in the case of the 26 13. 37x23 is almost the same small gear as a 39x25. Compact double offers the same thing and since you use smaller cogs all the way around the system is lighter. It's win win.

 

[fushman]

Originally posted by ridecycling
Wake up dude! 51x11 is a much bigger gear than a 53x12 or even a 53x13 which is what you would have to run if you did a 39x25 or 39x26 cogset with the smallest cog being 12 or in the case of the 26 13. 37x23 is almost the same small gear as a 39x25. Compact double offers the same thing and since you use smaller cogs all the way around the system is lighter. It's win win.

its not win win. not at all. live b said, theres no free lunches. if your running a 11-23 cassette then you dont have the low gear you have on a triple, which is why you said compacts are so great to begin with. a compact crank is clearly a compromise, you dont have the big gear or the small gear of a triple. you can give one way or the other depending on what you need more but you cant have both at once.

 

[dennis dee]

Originally posted by Kaboom
So what do u people ride out there? shimano or campy?

Campagnolo Record.

Just a comment. Both marques are equally good. But the comparison ends there. Perhaps they could be described as follows:

Shimano has the sophistication like all Japanese products while Campagnolo is like a well oiled Italian machine.

 

[dennis dee]

Originally posted by patch70
True, but remember that the pro's use what they are paid to use, not what they choose to use.

T-Mobile now rides Giant bikes w/ Shimano as sponsors. They use to ride Pinarello w/ Campagnolo. But on training riders still prefer their bikes w/ Campagnolo so they have the team mechanic swap them when not competing. The attach pics show proof to this.

But having said that, it all boils down to one's personal preference and at the price level of these two groups (Record and Dura-Ace) the people who can afford them will be loyal to his brand.

I used to and always lusted over Record. Take note, I say Record and not just any Campagnolo. That was the time I was young and can only afford Ultegra as the highest gruppo my priorities took me. But 7 years later and good fortune I can now indulge on my fantasy and Campagnolo Record adorn my steed even if before this I have not tried any Campagnolo product first hand. Sure I can afford Dura Ace and even the best FSA can throw but my group of choice is and will always be Record. Anything lesser (for lack of a better term) than this be it any Campagnolo gruppo or from Shimano I will not be happy with.

 

[belfast-biker]

Originally posted by funknuggets
... and campy and shimano low end stuff both are TERRIBLE.

I've just ordered a bike with Campy Xenon equipment, it's all I could afford. In what way is it terrible?

You've got me concerned!

 

[mjw_byrne]

Don't concern yourself too much. A Xenon-equipped bike won't shift as crisply or as fast as a Record or Dura-Ace=equipped one; it'll be heavier (all other things being equal); the levers are plastic instead of sexy carbon fibre; the equipment is less durable...and so on. It still works fine though. It's just not top-end race kit.

 

[belfast-biker]

Originally posted by mjw_byrne
Don't concern yourself too much. A Xenon-equipped bike won't shift as crisply or as fast as a Record or Dura-Ace=equipped one; it'll be heavier (all other things being equal); the levers are plastic instead of sexy carbon fibre; the equipment is less durable...and so on. It still works fine though. It's just not top-end race kit.

Cheers. I just got the impression there that the stuff would fall apart as quick as a £50 mail order bike!

I'm um, "heavier", so the difference in weight should be negligible to me, hopefully! I figure at 16stone-odds in weight, saving grammes here and there is silly.

Less durable? Fair enough - I was planning on replacing it with Centaur or whatever stuff as it wear out, and it *will* wear out with me on it.

I'm not racing, I just want to go places fast as my tree trunks can propel me...

 

[mjw_byrne]

Originally posted by belfast-biker
Cheers. I just got the impression there that the stuff would fall apart as quick as a £50 mail order bike!

Nope, you don't have to worry about that. Any Campag group (and any Shimano road group) is going to be at the very least of reasonable quality. Moreover, Campag stuff in general has a reputation for being durable.

I'm um, "heavier", so the difference in weight should be negligible to me, hopefully! I figure at 16stone-odds in weight, saving grammes here and there is silly.

Yeah, the weight difference issue isn't something to worry about unless you're competing. And like you say, a 16-stone rider will be hard-pushed to notice a difference of a few hundred grams.

Less durable? Fair enough - I was planning on replacing it with Centaur or whatever stuff as it wear out, and it *will* wear out with me on it.

That could be an issue - Centaur is 10-speed and Xenon is 9-speed. The 9-speed Veloce kit is still available though - that's one below Centaur. Good luck!

 

[belfast-biker]

"That could be an issue - Centaur is 10-speed and Xenon is 9-speed. The 9-speed Veloce kit is still available though - that's one below Centaur. Good luck!"



Ah.... cheers!


I guess 9-speed for the near future will do me... I'm on 8 speed currently on my old Sirrus hybrid I'm selling to my bro, so I'm sure 9-speed will be more than adequate....

Wish it was coming in Celeste though, instead of bright yellow!

 

[mjw_byrne]

Ah, so you ordered a Bianchi? Nice! I have one too, with Centaur kit. 's lovely I very much doubt you'll be disappointed.

 

[belfast-biker]

Originally posted by mjw_byrne
Ah, so you ordered a Bianchi? Nice! I have one too, with Centaur kit. 's lovely I very much doubt you'll be disappointed.

Aye, just a Gold Race 600... below entry level these days! Should arrive before the bank holiday weekend.

 

[dennis dee]

Originally posted by BaCardi
Uh, no. That pic proves nothing. FYI, the T-Mobile pros do not ride around goofing with Campy only to have their mechanics swap to Shimano before each race. That's ****ing retarded. The pic proves that there is a T-Mo replica bike somewhere that has some Camp stuff on it. Big deal. There's a Trek Madone at a LBS that has record on it, just as there are posers riding the latest Pinarello Fasso bikes with Shimano on it.

The pic is taken from a reputable cycling website and is the training bike of Erik Zabel. It's also equipped with an SRM crank as all pros do when training to monitor their power as they build up fitness.

Am not saying Shimano is sh*t so dont go ballistic and use profanity. If you read my post carefully it clearly says that none (Record vs. DA) is better than the other and it still boils down to one's preference.

 

[fushman]

Originally posted by dennis dee
The pic is taken from a reputable cycling website and is the training bike of Erik Zabel. It's also equipped with an SRM crank as all pros do when training to monitor their power as they build up fitness.

Am not saying Shimano is sh*t so dont go ballistic and use profanity. If you read my post carefully it clearly says that none (Record vs. DA) is better than the other and it still boils down to one's preference.

i dunno, i dont think that photos proof of much, id like to see a t mobile rider actually riding a campy equipt bike, ya know? and whats up with the seat post, whyd they swap that out.

personally if i was a pro and had to race on campy id train on it too regardless of preference.

 

[dennis dee]

Originally posted by fushman
i dunno, i dont think that photos proof of much, id like to see a t mobile rider actually riding a campy equipt bike, ya know? and whats up with the seat post, whyd they swap that out.

personally if i was a pro and had to race on campy I'd train on it too regardless of preference.

Ahh, to see is to believe. I think they do have a pic of a t-mobile rider using campy on his shimano sponsored bike. And how about a pic of a campy sponsored rider using shimano. I will post both pics once i find it.

But you're spot on regarding the point on using what your sponsors offer and I'd do the same for ethical reasons.

PS> Even Lance Armstrong used Dia-Compe triathlon brake levers on his time-trial machine a few tours back while Richard Virenque used a Litespeed bike on mountain stages when he was w/ Festina when the team was co-sponsored by Peugot bikes. Lemond and Boardman used Lotus time trial bikes when they were with Gan and Gan was sponsored to ride Lemond bikes. And the list goes on.

But the point really is, and I cannot emphasize this enough, it is to one's preference... gruppos, bikes and other equipment... and pros not excepted.

 

[fushman]

Originally posted by dennis dee
Ahh, to see is to believe. I think they do have a pic of a t-mobile rider using campy on his shimano sponsored bike. And how about a pic of a campy sponsored rider using shimano. I will post both pics once i find it.

But you're spot on regarding the point on using what your sponsors offer and I'd do the same for ethical reasons.

PS> Even Lance Armstrong used Dia-Compe triathlon brake levers on his time-trial machine a few tours back while Richard Virenque used a Litespeed bike on mountain stages when he was w/ Festina when the team was co-sponsored by Peugot bikes. Lemond and Boardman used Lotus time trial bikes when they were with Gan and Gan was sponsored to ride Lemond bikes. And the list goes on.

But the point really is, and I cannot emphasize this enough, it is to one's preference... gruppos, bikes and other equipment... and pros not excepted.

please do post em when you find em, sorry to be skeptical, but youre exactly right about seeing is beleiving

actually tho i was mostly thinking about just getting used to the new product, as opposed to ethical concerns.

i understand your point about using different products and even changing labels and what not, but a gruppo seems different to me.

 

[lokstah]

No need for hootin' and hollaring. Here's what we know. We know that T-Mobile has a contract with Shimano, and we know that officially, and as publicly as possible, these guys will be using DA10 on their bikes.

We also know that, historically, with this and any other team, riders work to bend those rules to suit their preferences. Dennis provided a nice summary of recently documented 'violations.' Nothing particularly unheard of there. Whether it's just the fork, just the wheels, the shifter hoods, just the friggin' skewers, re-branded or plain as day, just for races, just for practices, or all the time, riders and teams cheat a bit now and then.

We know that these Campy-ed team bikes exist.

Do we know for sure that Zabel rides Campy -- off or on the clock? Of course not. We'll likely never know. Maybe he has a Giant spec'd with it for the time being, as a transitional tool, and he'll use it less and less as time goes by. Maybe the Campy-ed T-Mobile Giants out there are just a few novelty builds, used by one of the team physicians and his girlfriend. Or maybe, for all we know, the whole team is intent on riding silver-painted bootleg Campy stuff all season long. Who knows? Who cares? There's no sense in demanding proof, because the truth is probably in a gray area.

The point, as has been eloquently re-stated a few times, is NOT that Zabel rides Campy, hates Shimano, and that anyone stating otherwise is a turd.

The POINT is that everyone, including Zabel, Armstrong, BaCardi and my Mom, have personal equipment preferences, and may or may not extend those preferences into their careers to different extents. Beyond that, who bloody cares?

 

[fushman]

Originally posted by lokstah
No need for hootin' and hollaring. Here's what we know. We know that T-Mobile has a contract with Shimano, and we know that officially, and as publicly as possible, these guys will be using DA10 on their bikes.

We also know that, historically, with this and any other team, riders work to bend those rules to suit their preferences. Dennis provided a nice summary of recently documented 'violations.' Nothing particularly unheard of there. Whether it's just the fork, just the wheels, the shifter hoods, just the friggin' skewers, re-branded or plain as day, just for races, just for practices, or all the time, riders and teams cheat a bit now and then.

We know that these Campy-ed team bikes exist.

Do we know for sure that Zabel rides Campy -- off or on the clock? Of course not. We'll likely never know. Maybe he has a Giant spec'd with it for the time being, as a transitional tool, and he'll use it less and less as time goes by. Maybe the Campy-ed T-Mobile Giants out there are just a few novelty builds, used by one of the team physicians and his girlfriend. Or maybe, for all we know, the whole team is intent on riding silver-painted bootleg Campy stuff all season long. Who knows? Who cares? There's no sense in demanding proof, because the truth is probably in a gray area.

The point, as has been eloquently re-stated a few times, is NOT that Zabel rides Campy, hates Shimano, and that anyone stating otherwise is a turd.

The POINT is that everyone, including Zabel, Armstrong, BaCardi and my Mom, have personal equipment preferences, and may or may not extend those preferences into their careers to different extents. Beyond that, who bloody cares?

i heard zabel blamed this loss on shimano