Campy rear derailleurs excessive dish and Ergo speed changes to freewheel/cassette

[ddog]

Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
site, but did not see any follow up information. I don't want any
predished campy built wheels either.

As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
freewheel only.

 

[[email protected]]

ddog wrote:
> Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
> site, but did not see any follow up information.

I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said dish
is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless as a rock
about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do with wheel dish.
Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7 speed Shimano hubs.
Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement. I think Shimnao uses the
steel hub body itself to support the outermost bearing while with
Campagnolo the outermost bearing is in the hub shell itself. And the
Campagnolo aluminum hub body does not support the wheel. This is also
why Campagnolo 9/10 rear hubs are considerably lighter than Shimano 9
speed rear hubs. Aluminum compared to steel hub bodies.

But Shimano has adopted the Campagnolo bearing placement on their 10
speed hubs. 10 speed Dura Ace anyway. Not sure how the 10 speed
Ultegra hubs are made. 10 speed Dura Ace hubs have aluminum hub bodies
and the outermost bearing is inside the hub shell itself. And the Dura
Ace 10 speed rear hub is comparable in weight to the Campagnolo rear
hub.

Do a search on this forum and you can find entries about the Dura Ace
10 speed hubs to read about its bearing placement.

As for Campagnolo having excessive dish, I have several Campagnolo rear
wheels on Record and Chorus hubs that have held up just fine. Even
with more dish than Shimano, they can be built into very high quality
wheels. Maybe the difference in dish might make a difference on a 100
pound loaded touring bike. Or a tandem with heavy riders maybe. For
road riding, it makes no difference. Just something for the bike shops
pushing Shimano to talk about.



I don't want any
> predished campy built wheels either.
>
> As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
> to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
> freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
> IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
> freewheel only.

Only way to change the spacing on Ergo shifters is to change the shift
disk. 9 or 10 speed disks fit in 1999 onwards shifters. I think 8 or
9 will go into pre 1999 Ergo shifters. Best to contact Peter at
Vecchios to see which disks fit in which Ergo models. Not sure there
ever was a 7 speed Ergo shifter. But maybe your freewheel spacing is
similar to an 8 speed Ergo movement and you would just end up with an
unused click. Similar to how some people use 10 speed Ergo with 9
speed Shimano cassettes.

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-01-11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> ddog wrote:
>> Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
>> site, but did not see any follow up information.
>
> I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said dish
> is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless as a rock
> about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do with wheel dish.
> Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7 speed Shimano hubs.
> Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement. I think Shimnao uses the
> steel hub body itself to support the outermost bearing while with
> Campagnolo the outermost bearing is in the hub shell itself.

Campagnolo hubs do have bearings inside the freehub part. Two sets in
the freehub and two in the hub body.

The difference, as I understand it, is that on a Shimano hub, the
freehub and hub body are one-piece. On a Campag on they're just sort of
slotted together and it's all held there by nuts at the ends.

But I may still have this wrong. Hopefully someone will correct.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

ddog wrote:
> Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
> site, but did not see any follow up information. I don't want any
> predished campy built wheels either.

This makes no sense. Campag hubs are 1mm 'more dished' than most
others. The rear derailleur is no different as to throw of any rear
derailleur.

>
> As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
> to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
> freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
> IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
> freewheel only.

Any Campag Ergo, from 1991 till 1997 can be either 8s or 9s, with the
appropriate spacing. 1999 and later ERGO can be 8, 9 or 10, just by
switching the shift disc.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

[email protected] wrote:
> ddog wrote:
> > Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
> > site, but did not see any follow up information.
>
> I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said dish
> is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless as a rock
> about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do with wheel dish.
> Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7 speed Shimano hubs.
> Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement. I think Shimnao uses the
> steel hub body itself to support the outermost bearing while with
> Campagnolo the outermost bearing is in the hub shell itself. And the
> Campagnolo aluminum hub body does not support the wheel. This is also
> why Campagnolo 9/10 rear hubs are considerably lighter than Shimano 9
> speed rear hubs. Aluminum compared to steel hub bodies.
>
> But Shimano has adopted the Campagnolo bearing placement on their 10
> speed hubs. 10 speed Dura Ace anyway. Not sure how the 10 speed
> Ultegra hubs are made.


Just like the so called '9s' hubs. A little fatter hub body but 'guts'
the same as 6500.

10 speed Dura Ace hubs have aluminum hub bodies
> and the outermost bearing is inside the hub shell itself. And the Dura
> Ace 10 speed rear hub is comparable in weight to the Campagnolo rear
> hub.
>
> Do a search on this forum and you can find entries about the Dura Ace
> 10 speed hubs to read about its bearing placement.
>
> As for Campagnolo having excessive dish, I have several Campagnolo rear
> wheels on Record and Chorus hubs that have held up just fine. Even
> with more dish than Shimano, they can be built into very high quality
> wheels. Maybe the difference in dish might make a difference on a 100
> pound loaded touring bike. Or a tandem with heavy riders maybe. For
> road riding, it makes no difference. Just something for the bike shops
> pushing Shimano to talk about.
>
>
>
> I don't want any
> > predished campy built wheels either.
> >
> > As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
> > to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
> > freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
> > IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
> > freewheel only.
>
> Only way to change the spacing on Ergo shifters is to change the shift
> disk. 9 or 10 speed disks fit in 1999 onwards shifters. I think 8 or
> 9 will go into pre 1999 Ergo shifters. Best to contact Peter at
> Vecchios to see which disks fit in which Ergo models. Not sure there
> ever was a 7 speed Ergo shifter. But maybe your freewheel spacing is
> similar to an 8 speed Ergo movement and you would just end up with an
> unused click. Similar to how some people use 10 speed Ergo with 9
> speed Shimano cassettes.

 

[ddog]

Thanks Guys! That makes sense.

I hope I didn't slander Rivendell, because it was only a sentence that
was not understood properly. Whoops. They seem to be a fine company
with some unique products.

The bottom line is I was trying to calculate if the Campy rear
derailleur (and what models possible - 1999 and on of all models-?)
could be used for the ergo 8 with an IRD 7 sp freewheel which would be
5mm center to center sprockets, just like Campy 8 speed.

So the rear fork spacing was a question if it required for some reason
a large wheel dish, but I won't be using Campy wheels anyway with IRD
(5, 6, 7) or Shimano (7) freewheel.

I assumethe same sprocket center to center 5.0mm before and after 1999
for Campy 8 sp from my sprocket spacing Bible index on Sheldon's site
(Sproket Spacing table near bottom of link's page).

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html

Ergo would just be an option I could do later, as I like their better
water resistance brake hood design, rebuildable parts, and now I just
found out can switch speeds with disc parts. But I don't need ergo now,
but would like to have that option if I need it later.


Thanks Again!

 

[[email protected]]

Ben C wrote:
> On 2007-01-11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> > ddog wrote:
> >> Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
> >> site, but did not see any follow up information.
> >
> > I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said dish
> > is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless as a rock
> > about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do with wheel dish.
> > Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7 speed Shimano hubs.
> > Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement. I think Shimnao uses the
> > steel hub body itself to support the outermost bearing while with
> > Campagnolo the outermost bearing is in the hub shell itself.
>
> Campagnolo hubs do have bearings inside the freehub part. Two sets in
> the freehub and two in the hub body.

Yes. But the bearings in the hub body are just to allow it to turn
when coasting. They are not weight bearing bearings like the ones
inside the hub shell.


>
> The difference, as I understand it, is that on a Shimano hub, the
> freehub and hub body are one-piece.

No. You can easily take the steel Shimano hub body off the hub shell
with a 10mm Allen wrench. Just take the axle, cones, spacers, grease,
grease guard out and you can see the 6 sided opening for the 10mm Allen
wrench to fit into. The inside of the steel Shimano hub body is
actually the cup for the outer most bearings on the Shimano rear hub.
The Shimano hub body fits over splines forged into the hub shell. A
thin washer goes between the steel hub body and the aluminum hub shell.




On a Campag on they're just sort of
> slotted together and it's all held there by nuts at the ends.
>
> But I may still have this wrong. Hopefully someone will correct.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:28:42 -0800, ddog wrote:

> Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
> site, but did not see any follow up information. I don't want any
> predished campy built wheels either.
>
> As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
> to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
> freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
> IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
> freewheel only.

This whole thing is disingenuous. What do they mean by excessive? Does
it mean that you can't build a reliable wheel with Campy spacing? That is
evidently false; there are thousands of reliable wheels out there,
including mine. There is a large dose of retro-grouchiness in anything
from Rivendell; take their advice with a pinch of salt.

If you _want_ to stick with 7-speed, then perhaps Shimano would be better,
but IIRC those wheels had 126mm spacing; if the frame is newish, it would
have 130mm spacing. Not a problem with steel, may be with other
materials. But I don't get why you would prefer 7-speed over 9. 10-speed
parts are still more expensive than they should be, but 9-speed offers
you, well, 9 speeds, and the components are essentially the same price as
7-speed stuff. I just don't see the downside.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
_`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
(_)/ (_) |

 

[ddog]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:28:42 -0800, ddog wrote:
>
> > Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
> > site, but did not see any follow up information. I don't want any
> > predished campy built wheels either.
> >
> > As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
> > to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
> > freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
> > IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
> > freewheel only.
>
> This whole thing is disingenuous. What do they mean by excessive? Does
> it mean that you can't build a reliable wheel with Campy spacing? That is
> evidently false; there are thousands of reliable wheels out there,
> including mine. There is a large dose of retro-grouchiness in anything
> from Rivendell; take their advice with a pinch of salt.
>
> If you _want_ to stick with 7-speed, then perhaps Shimano would be better,
> but IIRC those wheels had 126mm spacing; if the frame is newish, it would
> have 130mm spacing. Not a problem with steel, may be with other
> materials. But I don't get why you would prefer 7-speed over 9. 10-speed
> parts are still more expensive than they should be, but 9-speed offers
> you, well, 9 speeds, and the components are essentially the same price as
> 7-speed stuff. I just don't see the downside.
>
> --
>
> David L. Johnson
>
> __o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
> _`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
> (_)/ (_) |

David,

I don't think they are disingenuis. It was one sentence I didn't
understand and may have miscommunicated the intent. Sorry.

The reason 5, 6, 7 sp IRD or 7 sp Shimano freewheel? Get 1/2 price Phil
Woods hubs when get new wheels as an option if don't get Harris $99 -
27" set specials.

I only need 5 speed freewheel, and depending on center to center
sprockets on 5 and 6 speed, I want to also have the ability to use ergo
8 speed 1999 up: only 7 sp IRD or shimano is known 5mm center to center
currently for hyperglide freewheels.

So my main goal is to add each system at one time so I know exactly
what effects what. Its running great now, and I don't want to get
caught up in Shimano/Campy marketing upgrade whirlwinds. I don't need a
button shifter now, but prefer the ergo over STI; and now finding out
how to make it fit a campy rd. But you get so much in Shimano for
money, that is an initial attractive option as well.

Except for Sheldon's site, this stuff is pretty well hidden in vendor
sites, so all I have is questions. I can see the main thing from
getting my 1971 Raleigh started is to have as many options for the
future, and use as many features I already have from the present 531
triangle frame and chromed forks: wheel size and brakes. Its not easy
though since there's always one part, screw, or bracket missing that
wastes most of my time searching and money in shipping screws, shims
(one at a time), or brackets to make work. So I'm going slow until I
figure this maze out.

I'm held up now because using Syntace aerobar lifter on Profile Century
aerobar. I found exact screw needed on another Profile aerobar M6x48
(4ea), but the tech won't send it to me because I don't have that
aerobar. He said liability, but its bs marketing if you ask me.


:-0

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

ddog wrote:
> Thanks Guys! That makes sense.
>
> I hope I didn't slander Rivendell, because it was only a sentence that
> was not understood properly. Whoops. They seem to be a fine company
> with some unique products.
>
> The bottom line is I was trying to calculate if the Campy rear
> derailleur (and what models possible - 1999 and on of all models-?)
> could be used for the ergo 8 with an IRD 7 sp freewheel which would be
> 5mm center to center sprockets, just like Campy 8 speed.

If you have a Campag 8s shifter, either DT or ERGO, use any RD and it
will shift that 7s freewheel just fine.
>
> So the rear fork spacing was a question if it required for some reason
> a large wheel dish, but I won't be using Campy wheels anyway with IRD
> (5, 6, 7) or Shimano (7) freewheel.
>
> I assumethe same sprocket center to center 5.0mm before and after 1999
> for Campy 8 sp from my sprocket spacing Bible index on Sheldon's site
> (Sproket Spacing table near bottom of link's page).

5mm for Campag 8s...hasn't changed.
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html
>
> Ergo would just be an option I could do later, as I like their better
> water resistance brake hood design, rebuildable parts, and now I just
> found out can switch speeds with disc parts. But I don't need ergo now,
> but would like to have that option if I need it later.
>
>
> Thanks Again!

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:28:42 -0800, ddog wrote:
>
> > Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
> > site, but did not see any follow up information. I don't want any
> > predished campy built wheels either.
> >
> > As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
> > to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
> > freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
> > IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
> > freewheel only.
>
> This whole thing is disingenuous. What do they mean by excessive? Does
> it mean that you can't build a reliable wheel with Campy spacing? That is
> evidently false; there are thousands of reliable wheels out there,
> including mine. There is a large dose of retro-grouchiness in anything
> from Rivendell; take their advice with a pinch of salt.

No kidding...I am a 'all carbon everything, latest gadget and gizmo
right NOW' cyclist in comparison to Rivendell...
>
> If you _want_ to stick with 7-speed, then perhaps Shimano would be better,
> but IIRC those wheels had 126mm spacing; if the frame is newish, it would
> have 130mm spacing. Not a problem with steel, may be with other
> materials. But I don't get why you would prefer 7-speed over 9. 10-speed
> parts are still more expensive than they should be, but 9-speed offers
> you, well, 9 speeds, and the components are essentially the same price as
> 7-speed stuff. I just don't see the downside.

Well, maybe the gent has a bunch of freewheel wheels, like I do. If I
ever go to ERGO(which I won't), I would use a 7s freewheel(DA is the
very best, BTW, I have about a dozen), 8s ERGO, either old or converted
new, a RD...
>
> --
>
> David L. Johnson
>
> __o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
> _`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
> (_)/ (_) |

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-01-11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
>> On 2007-01-11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
[snip]
>> Campagnolo hubs do have bearings inside the freehub part. Two sets in
>> the freehub and two in the hub body.
>
> Yes. But the bearings in the hub body are just to allow it to turn
> when coasting. They are not weight bearing bearings like the ones
> inside the hub shell.

Are you sure? They look just as big and heavy-duty as the ones on the
hub shell side.

>> The difference, as I understand it, is that on a Shimano hub, the
>> freehub and hub body are one-piece.
>
> No. You can easily take the steel Shimano hub body off the hub shell
> with a 10mm Allen wrench. Just take the axle, cones, spacers, grease,
> grease guard out and you can see the 6 sided opening for the 10mm Allen
> wrench to fit into. The inside of the steel Shimano hub body is
> actually the cup for the outer most bearings on the Shimano rear hub.
> The Shimano hub body fits over splines forged into the hub shell. A
> thin washer goes between the steel hub body and the aluminum hub shell.

How long are the splines-- do they run all the way to drive-side
locknut, or are they quite short?

Thanks.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
> > On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:28:42 -0800, ddog wrote:
> >
> > > Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
> > > site, but did not see any follow up information. I don't want any
> > > predished campy built wheels either.
> > >
> > > As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
> > > to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
> > > freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
> > > IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
> > > freewheel only.
> >
> > This whole thing is disingenuous. What do they mean by excessive? Does
> > it mean that you can't build a reliable wheel with Campy spacing? That is
> > evidently false; there are thousands of reliable wheels out there,
> > including mine. There is a large dose of retro-grouchiness in anything
> > from Rivendell; take their advice with a pinch of salt.
>
> No kidding...I am a 'all carbon everything, latest gadget and gizmo
> right NOW' cyclist in comparison to Rivendell...

IMO, the difference is that you are trying to give sensible advice
based on experience, whilst the Riv boys are "striking a pose" for
marketing purposes.

"Send me your alienated masses, your disaffected, your retro-grouches"
- inscribed at the base of the Statue of Grant Peterson Enlightening
the (Bicycle) World

 

[Phil, Non-Squid]

>>> The difference, as I understand it, is that on a Shimano hub, the
>>> freehub and hub body are one-piece.
>>
>> No. You can easily take the steel Shimano hub body off the hub shell
>> with a 10mm Allen wrench. Just take the axle, cones, spacers,
>> grease, grease guard out and you can see the 6 sided opening for the
>> 10mm Allen wrench to fit into. The inside of the steel Shimano hub
>> body is actually the cup for the outer most bearings on the Shimano
>> rear hub. The Shimano hub body fits over splines forged into the hub
>> shell. A thin washer goes between the steel hub body and the
>> aluminum hub shell.
>
> How long are the splines-- do they run all the way to drive-side
> locknut, or are they quite short?

The latter, probably around 7mm.
--
Phil

 

[A Muzi]

> On 2007-01-11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>> ddog wrote:
>>> Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
>>> site, but did not see any follow up information.
>> I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said dish
>> is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless as a rock
>> about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do with wheel dish.
>> Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7 speed Shimano hubs.
>> Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement. I think Shimnao uses the
>> steel hub body itself to support the outermost bearing while with
>> Campagnolo the outermost bearing is in the hub shell itself.

Ben C wrote:
> Campagnolo hubs do have bearings inside the freehub part. Two sets in
> the freehub and two in the hub body.
>
> The difference, as I understand it, is that on a Shimano hub, the
> freehub and hub body are one-piece. On a Campag on they're just sort of
> slotted together and it's all held there by nuts at the ends.
>
> But I may still have this wrong. Hopefully someone will correct.
not all that complex:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CANEWHUB.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

> > On 2007-01-11, [email protected] <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> ddog wrote:
> >>> Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to
> >>> Rivendell's site, but did not see any follow up information.
> >> I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said
> >> dish is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless
> >> as a rock about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do
> >> with wheel dish. Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7
> >> speed Shimano hubs. Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement. I
> >> think Shimnao uses the steel hub body itself to support the
> >> outermost bearing while with Campagnolo the outermost bearing is
> >> in the hub shell itself.
>
> Ben C wrote:
> > Campagnolo hubs do have bearings inside the freehub part. Two sets
> > in the freehub and two in the hub body.
> >
> > The difference, as I understand it, is that on a Shimano hub, the
> > freehub and hub body are one-piece. On a Campag on they're just
> > sort of slotted together and it's all held there by nuts at the
> > ends.
> >
> > But I may still have this wrong. Hopefully someone will correct.
> not all that complex:
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CANEWHUB.JPG

ISTR the reason that Campy hubs require more dish is that Campy used a
slightly wider cog spacing which made their 8 speed cassettes wider than
Shimano's 8 speed cassettes. I don't know that I am remembering
correctly, of course, nor whether- II do RC- this is still the case with
9 and 10 speed cassettes being the dubious norm.

 

[jim beam]

[email protected] wrote:
> ddog wrote:
>> Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
>> site, but did not see any follow up information.
>
> I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said dish
> is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless as a rock
> about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do with wheel dish.
> Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7 speed Shimano hubs.
> Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement.

not bearing, flange. campy have their flange about 2mm closer to the
hub center than shimano, hence the dish is a little greater. it doesn't
really matter where the bearing is in this.

> I think Shimnao uses the
> steel hub body itself to support the outermost bearing while with
> Campagnolo the outermost bearing is in the hub shell itself. And the
> Campagnolo aluminum hub body does not support the wheel. This is also
> why Campagnolo 9/10 rear hubs are considerably lighter than Shimano 9
> speed rear hubs. Aluminum compared to steel hub bodies.
>
> But Shimano has adopted the Campagnolo bearing placement on their 10
> speed hubs. 10 speed Dura Ace anyway. Not sure how the 10 speed
> Ultegra hubs are made. 10 speed Dura Ace hubs have aluminum hub bodies
> and the outermost bearing is inside the hub shell itself. And the Dura
> Ace 10 speed rear hub is comparable in weight to the Campagnolo rear
> hub.
>
> Do a search on this forum and you can find entries about the Dura Ace
> 10 speed hubs to read about its bearing placement.
>
> As for Campagnolo having excessive dish, I have several Campagnolo rear
> wheels on Record and Chorus hubs that have held up just fine. Even
> with more dish than Shimano, they can be built into very high quality
> wheels. Maybe the difference in dish might make a difference on a 100
> pound loaded touring bike. Or a tandem with heavy riders maybe. For
> road riding, it makes no difference. Just something for the bike shops
> pushing Shimano to talk about.
>
>
>
> I don't want any
>> predished campy built wheels either.
>>
>> As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
>> to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
>> freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
>> IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
>> freewheel only.
>
> Only way to change the spacing on Ergo shifters is to change the shift
> disk. 9 or 10 speed disks fit in 1999 onwards shifters. I think 8 or
> 9 will go into pre 1999 Ergo shifters. Best to contact Peter at
> Vecchios to see which disks fit in which Ergo models. Not sure there
> ever was a 7 speed Ergo shifter. But maybe your freewheel spacing is
> similar to an 8 speed Ergo movement and you would just end up with an
> unused click. Similar to how some people use 10 speed Ergo with 9
> speed Shimano cassettes.
>

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-01-13, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 2007-01-11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> ddog wrote:
>>>> Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
>>>> site, but did not see any follow up information.
>>> I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said dish
>>> is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless as a rock
>>> about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do with wheel dish.
>>> Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7 speed Shimano hubs.
>>> Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement. I think Shimnao uses the
>>> steel hub body itself to support the outermost bearing while with
>>> Campagnolo the outermost bearing is in the hub shell itself.
>
> Ben C wrote:
>> Campagnolo hubs do have bearings inside the freehub part. Two sets in
>> the freehub and two in the hub body.
>>
>> The difference, as I understand it, is that on a Shimano hub, the
>> freehub and hub body are one-piece. On a Campag on they're just sort of
>> slotted together and it's all held there by nuts at the ends.
>>
>> But I may still have this wrong. Hopefully someone will correct.
> not all that complex:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CANEWHUB.JPG

Thanks. The Campag hubs are the ones I understand quite well, but a
similar diagram of a Shimano one would be useful.

 

[richard]

I know gRant doesn't seem to care for Campy, but I've never known him to
spew out such off-the-wall comments as this.

I can think of a couple of reasons gRant would favor Shimano...

1. Campy's bar-end shifters do not have a non-indexed friction mode.
Remember, gRant tells us how much more enjoyable riding would be with
friction-shifting bar ends. (OK, so why can't Shimano bar-ends be used
in friction mode on Campy drive trains, huh???)

2. Folks from the Shimano family thought enough of Rivendell to give him
some tours, spend time with him, etc. Hard to beat that kind of PR
(especially if Campy never sent one of their family members over there
for a visit or an invite).

Were supply not such as it is, I believe built-up Rivendells would all
have Wood bearings, Sugino cranks, Dia-Compe brakes, and SunTour
shifters/derailleurs. Ya' know, that really IS all good (but sometimes
hard to find) stuff!

Oh yeah, I have 2 bikes with 9-spd Ergo and one 10-spd Ergo on Chorus
hubs...

ddog wrote:
> Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
> site, but did not see any follow up information. I don't want any
> predished campy built wheels either.
>
> As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
> to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
> freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
> IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
> freewheel only.
>

 

[A Muzi]

>>> On 2007-01-11, [email protected] <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> ddog wrote:
>>>>> Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to
>>>>> Rivendell's site, but did not see any follow up information.
>>>> I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said
>>>> dish is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless
>>>> as a rock about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do
>>>> with wheel dish. Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7
>>>> speed Shimano hubs. Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement. I
>>>> think Shimnao uses the steel hub body itself to support the
>>>> outermost bearing while with Campagnolo the outermost bearing is
>>>> in the hub shell itself.
>> Ben C wrote:
>>> Campagnolo hubs do have bearings inside the freehub part. Two sets
>>> in the freehub and two in the hub body.
>>> The difference, as I understand it, is that on a Shimano hub, the
>>> freehub and hub body are one-piece. On a Campag on they're just
>>> sort of slotted together and it's all held there by nuts at the
>>> ends.
>>> But I may still have this wrong. Hopefully someone will correct.
>> not all that complex:

> I<[email protected]> wrote:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CANEWHUB.JPG

Tim McNamara wrote:
> ISTR the reason that Campy hubs require more dish is that Campy used a
> slightly wider cog spacing which made their 8 speed cassettes wider than
> Shimano's 8 speed cassettes. I don't know that I am remembering
> correctly, of course, nor whether- II do RC- this is still the case with
> 9 and 10 speed cassettes being the dubious norm.

I believe you're correct. Sorry, I couldn't recall the photo name until
now. Here it is:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/yeasowat.jpg

'Yeah? So what?' sums up my opinion.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971