Campy Record Ergo 10 - Triple?

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Michael Warner wrote:
> On 28 Oct 2006 20:02:56 -0700, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> > If Shimano is so bad, what did they come to dominate the market? Pro
> > Japanese, anti European prejudice?
>
> Nah. The backlash against pointless, cosmetic bits of carbon fibre

Criticism of Campagnolo is forbidden, since they have EUROPEAN HERITAGE
AND MYSTIQUE [TM], and Tullio Campagnolo was a cycle racer.

Criticism of Shimano is fair game, since they make fishing reels, and
Shozo Shimano was an industrialist.

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

 

[bfd]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>. As for 'better product at lower price', I
> say Centaur is a much better product at a lower price than Ultegra,
> Chorus is a much better product at a lower price than DA....BUT so much
> goes into buying decisions

I use to agree that Centaur was the best deal around. However, for 2007, its
my understanding that Campy has changed Centaur for the worse. Centaur hubs
use to be Record without the fancy dustcaps. For 2007, its now fancier
version of Veloce/Mirage (i.e., cartridge bearing) and not Record level.
Similarly, the Centaur ergo levers, although with bushings instead of
bearings, was the best buy in shifters. However, for 2007, it has something
called QR and now doesn't have the downshift capability of Record/Chorus. I
haven't seen the new 2007 cranks yet so I'll reserve coment.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> > Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > > D'ohBoy wrote:
> > > > > OB wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Make no mistake, Shimano does understand bicycles and, more
> > > > > > importantly, the bicycle *market*. To the uninitiated, indexed front
> > > > > > shifting can seem "magical". And most of these folks neither know nor
> > > > > > care about the limitations imposed by indexed front shifting.
> > > > >
> > > > > Harumph. These are limits imposed by Shimano's implementation, not
> > > > > specific to indexed front shifting.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Some, perhaps, are due to Shimano's implementation. Others, such as
> > > > being fussy about the design of the FD seem to be inherent in indexed
> > > > front shifting (just a indexed rear shifting is fussy about the design
> > > > of the RD).
> > > >
> > > > FWIW, IMO, indexed front shifting is a case of a solution in search of
> > > > a problem (especially on doubles).
> > >
> > > I can only imagine how nasty this thread is going to get but...this
> > > thread is the problem that I have with shimano. They are gigantic, they
> > > create 'standards' and their size dictates the market. Their arrogance
> > > means they see the market as theirs to manipulate, and they don't
> > > really care if the gear they design and produce is the best for the
> > > cyclist or not. They view their ideas the 'best', and anything else is
> > > inferior, regardless if it works or not. Double only STI, octalink,
> > > SPD-R, cart HS that were a bigger stack height than ball
> > > bearing(rendering a whole bunch of forks obsolete), 7400 DA that was
> > > compatible only with itself, hyperglide, not compatible with uniglide,
> > > now 10s only onto 7800 hubs and wheels...etc.
> >
> > Yeah, what company was responsible for all the new road bikes having an
> > unnecessary 10th gear in the back anyhow?
> >
> > If Shimano is so bad,
>
> Neither Peter Chisholm nor I have said Shimano is "bad".
>
>
> > what did they come to dominate the market?

As Johnny sunset implied...does Toyota dominate the car market, or
their segment? Is Audi and Porsche and Mercedes Benz looking to unseat
Toyota? Is Rolex mass producing cheapo watches to unseat Seiko? How
about Ducati or MotoGuzzi...do they look longingly at the Big 3
Japanese makers and wish they could do the same thing? Is Ducati going
to introduce a scooter soon? Nope...

I ask again,Johnny how long did you live in Japan and how often have
you been to Europe?
>
> The major innovation of reliable indexed shifting, relentless marketing
> (New! New! New! 8Speed! 9Speed! 10Speed! etc, etc.) and a long history
> of questionable business practices.
>
>
> > Pro
> > Japanese, anti European prejudice?

yep, no doubt about it but not a racist sort of thing, altho the
arrogant/aggresive, Japanese mindset is well docmented, in business as
well as very evident to me, as I lived there for 3 years, onboard the
USS Midway, homeported in Yokosuka, part of the 'plan' to provide
protection to Japan from the Soviets and Chinese, because they saw it
better to let us pay for their protection, than them, a MacArthur
wriiten constitution notwithstanding. wow, that was a long sentence
> >

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
>
> As Johnny sunset implied...does Toyota dominate the car market, or
> their segment?

Along with Honda they dominate the East Asian markets. In the US, the
"Big 3" have to sell cars with little or no profit much of the time
with 0% financing and huge rebates. Meanwhile, they move production of
vehicles and parts to Mexico and China, while the Japanese build new
factories in the US. Toyota is set to overtake GM as the world's
largest motor vehicle manufacturer.

In Europe the indigenous manufacturers have done better due to
protectionism and nationalist buying sentiment (the latter also a large
factor in the US), while the high end manufacturers rely much on
prestige value.

> Is Audi and Porsche and Mercedes Benz looking to unseat
> Toyota? Is Rolex mass producing cheapo watches to unseat Seiko? How
> about Ducati or MotoGuzzi...do they look longingly at the Big 3
> Japanese makers and wish they could do the same thing?

Could they if they wanted to?

Honda + Kawasaki + Suzuki + Yamaha = 3?

> Is Ducati going to introduce a scooter soon? Nope...

You know what they say about scooters... Speaking of scooters, I see
a lot of Honda and Yamaha scooters, but very few Vespa and Puch (or
other European makes)? Why is that?

> I ask again,Johnny how long did you live in Japan and how often have
> you been to Europe?

What does this have to do with the attitudes of USians towards imported
products?

> > The major innovation of reliable indexed shifting, relentless marketing
> > (New! New! New! 8Speed! 9Speed! 10Speed! etc, etc.) and a long history
> > of questionable business practices.
> >
> >
> > > Pro Japanese, anti European prejudice?
>
> yep, no doubt about it but not a racist sort of thing, altho the
> arrogant/aggresive, Japanese mindset is well docmented, in business as
> well as very evident to me, as I lived there for 3 years, onboard the
> USS Midway, homeported in Yokosuka, part of the 'plan' to provide
> protection to Japan from the Soviets and Chinese, because they saw it
> better to let us pay for their protection, than them, a MacArthur
> wriiten constitution notwithstanding. wow, that was a long sentence

So you admit you have a bias towards European products and against
Japanese products?

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Campagnolo, like many manufacturers, choose their market. Campagnolo
> has chosen to be road and higher end, not the everything to everybike
> that shimano is.

I note that Campag has increased their flat bar FB line in 2007. Not
sure if they are chasing the city commuter roadie or the MTB crowd?
--

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote:

> As for the Mac, it may be a better OS in isolation, but for people who
> need to be compatible with the software used by most businesses, there
> is little choice but to deal with micro$oft.

Enjoy virus!

But Mac OS X has come a long way. It is a lot more compatible in the
business computing world these days. You can even run Windows at virtual
native speed through Parallels Desktop and get the best of both worlds.
And still no virus on your main OS. Time has changed.
--

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> >
> > As Johnny sunset implied...does Toyota dominate the car market, or
> > their segment?
>
> Along with Honda they dominate the East Asian markets. In the US, the
> "Big 3" have to sell cars with little or no profit much of the time
> with 0% financing and huge rebates. Meanwhile, they move production of
> vehicles and parts to Mexico and China, while the Japanese build new
> factories in the US. Toyota is set to overtake GM as the world's
> largest motor vehicle manufacturer.
>
> In Europe the indigenous manufacturers have done better due to
> protectionism and nationalist buying sentiment (the latter also a large
> factor in the US), while the high end manufacturers rely much on
> prestige value.
>
> > Is Audi and Porsche and Mercedes Benz looking to unseat
> > Toyota? Is Rolex mass producing cheapo watches to unseat Seiko? How
> > about Ducati or MotoGuzzi...do they look longingly at the Big 3
> > Japanese makers and wish they could do the same thing?
>
> Could they if they wanted to?

Don't think they want to
>
> Honda + Kawasaki + Suzuki + Yamaha = 3?

Kawasaki is the Mitsubishi of motorcycles, barely a blip in the
Japanese motrocycle world.
>
> > Is Ducati going to introduce a scooter soon? Nope...
>
> You know what they say about scooters... Speaking of scooters, I see
> a lot of Honda and Yamaha scooters, but very few Vespa and Puch (or
> other European makes)? Why is that?

I mentioned Ducati, you know, a specialty motorcycle maker, of high
end, high pefromance motorcycles, making scooters. Piaggio makes lots
of scooters in Europe, more than the japanese makers.
>
> > I ask again,Johnny how long did you live in Japan and how often have
> > you been to Europe?
>
> What does this have to do with the attitudes of USians towards imported
> products?

What do you care...how about an answer.
>
> > > The major innovation of reliable indexed shifting, relentless marketing
> > > (New! New! New! 8Speed! 9Speed! 10Speed! etc, etc.) and a long history
> > > of questionable business practices.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Pro Japanese, anti European prejudice?
> >
> > yep, no doubt about it but not a racist sort of thing, altho the
> > arrogant/aggresive, Japanese mindset is well docmented, in business as
> > well as very evident to me, as I lived there for 3 years, onboard the
> > USS Midway, homeported in Yokosuka, part of the 'plan' to provide
> > protection to Japan from the Soviets and Chinese, because they saw it
> > better to let us pay for their protection, than them, a MacArthur
> > wriiten constitution notwithstanding. wow, that was a long sentence
>
> So you admit you have a bias towards European products and against
> Japanese products?

.. I have lived in both places, I would rather support European
products...just like I don't buy products under the umbrella of RJ
Reynolds.
> --
> Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> >
> > As Johnny sunset implied...does Toyota dominate the car market, or
> > their segment?
>
> Along with Honda they dominate the East Asian markets. In the US, the
> "Big 3" have to sell cars with little or no profit much of the time
> with 0% financing and huge rebates. Meanwhile, they move production of
> vehicles and parts to Mexico and China, while the Japanese build new
> factories in the US. Toyota is set to overtake GM as the world's
> largest motor vehicle manufacturer.
>
> In Europe the indigenous manufacturers have done better due to
> protectionism and nationalist buying sentiment (the latter also a large
> factor in the US), while the high end manufacturers rely much on
> prestige value.
>
> > Is Audi and Porsche and Mercedes Benz looking to unseat
> > Toyota? Is Rolex mass producing cheapo watches to unseat Seiko? How
> > about Ducati or MotoGuzzi...do they look longingly at the Big 3
> > Japanese makers and wish they could do the same thing?
>
> Could they if they wanted to?
>
> Honda + Kawasaki + Suzuki + Yamaha = 3?
>
> > Is Ducati going to introduce a scooter soon? Nope...
>
> You know what they say about scooters... Speaking of scooters, I see
> a lot of Honda and Yamaha scooters, but very few Vespa and Puch (or
> other European makes)? Why is that?
>
> > I ask again,Johnny how long did you live in Japan and how often have
> > you been to Europe?
>
> What does this have to do with the attitudes of USians towards imported
> products?
>
> > > The major innovation of reliable indexed shifting, relentless marketing
> > > (New! New! New! 8Speed! 9Speed! 10Speed! etc, etc.) and a long history
> > > of questionable business practices.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Pro Japanese, anti European prejudice?
> >
> > yep, no doubt about it but not a racist sort of thing, altho the
> > arrogant/aggresive, Japanese mindset is well docmented, in business as
> > well as very evident to me, as I lived there for 3 years, onboard the
> > USS Midway, homeported in Yokosuka, part of the 'plan' to provide
> > protection to Japan from the Soviets and Chinese, because they saw it
> > better to let us pay for their protection, than them, a MacArthur
> > wriiten constitution notwithstanding. wow, that was a long sentence
>
> So you admit you have a bias towards European products and against
> Japanese products?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

If you wish, I can describe what it was like to be a USNavy pilot,
living onboard the USS Midway,and in Japan, and the hostility
demonstrated towards the US and the military on an almost a daily
basis. Living in Japan, providing them military protection they are too
lazy to provide themselves, yes putting my ***** on the line for the
Japanese, and being spit on..that is priceless...It doesn't endear my
to the Japanese. Strange too, because treatment by the Filipinos, Thai
people, Koreans and even Chinese in Hongkong toward the USNavy exactly
the opposite. What was was consistent tho, was the very low opinion
those other nationalities had of the Japanese.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> >
> > As Johnny sunset implied...does Toyota dominate the car market, or
> > their segment?
>
> Along with Honda they dominate the East Asian markets. In the US, the
> "Big 3" have to sell cars with little or no profit much of the time
> with 0% financing and huge rebates. Meanwhile, they move production of
> vehicles and parts to Mexico and China, while the Japanese build new
> factories in the US. Toyota is set to overtake GM as the world's
> largest motor vehicle manufacturer.
>
> In Europe the indigenous manufacturers have done better due to
> protectionism and nationalist buying sentiment (the latter also a large
> factor in the US), while the high end manufacturers rely much on
> prestige value.
>
> > Is Audi and Porsche and Mercedes Benz looking to unseat
> > Toyota? Is Rolex mass producing cheapo watches to unseat Seiko? How
> > about Ducati or MotoGuzzi...do they look longingly at the Big 3
> > Japanese makers and wish they could do the same thing?
>
> Could they if they wanted to?
>
> Honda + Kawasaki + Suzuki + Yamaha = 3?
>
> > Is Ducati going to introduce a scooter soon? Nope...
>
> You know what they say about scooters... Speaking of scooters, I see
> a lot of Honda and Yamaha scooters, but very few Vespa and Puch (or
> other European makes)? Why is that?
>
> > I ask again,Johnny how long did you live in Japan and how often have
> > you been to Europe?
>
> What does this have to do with the attitudes of USians towards imported
> products?
>
> > > The major innovation of reliable indexed shifting, relentless marketing
> > > (New! New! New! 8Speed! 9Speed! 10Speed! etc, etc.) and a long history
> > > of questionable business practices.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Pro Japanese, anti European prejudice?
> >
> > yep, no doubt about it but not a racist sort of thing, altho the
> > arrogant/aggresive, Japanese mindset is well docmented, in business as
> > well as very evident to me, as I lived there for 3 years, onboard the
> > USS Midway, homeported in Yokosuka, part of the 'plan' to provide
> > protection to Japan from the Soviets and Chinese, because they saw it
> > better to let us pay for their protection, than them, a MacArthur
> > wriiten constitution notwithstanding. wow, that was a long sentence
>
> So you admit you have a bias towards European products and against
> Japanese products?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

If you wish, I can describe what it was like to be a USNavy pilot,
living onboard the USS Midway,and in Japan, and the hostility
demonstrated towards the US and the military on an almost a daily
basis. Living in Japan, providing them military protection they are too
lazy to provide themselves, yes putting my ***** on the line for the
Japanese, and being spit on..that is priceless...It doesn't endear my
to the Japanese. Strange too, because treatment by the Filipinos, Thai
people, Koreans and even Chinese in Hongkong toward the USNavy exactly
the opposite. What was was consistent tho, was the very low opinion
those other nationalities had of the Japanese.

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> > Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > >
> > > As Johnny sunset implied...does Toyota dominate the car market, or
> > > their segment?
> >
> > Along with Honda they dominate the East Asian markets. In the US, the
> > "Big 3" have to sell cars with little or no profit much of the time
> > with 0% financing and huge rebates. Meanwhile, they move production of
> > vehicles and parts to Mexico and China, while the Japanese build new
> > factories in the US. Toyota is set to overtake GM as the world's
> > largest motor vehicle manufacturer.
> >
> > In Europe the indigenous manufacturers have done better due to
> > protectionism and nationalist buying sentiment (the latter also a large
> > factor in the US), while the high end manufacturers rely much on
> > prestige value.
> >
> > > Is Audi and Porsche and Mercedes Benz looking to unseat
> > > Toyota? Is Rolex mass producing cheapo watches to unseat Seiko? How
> > > about Ducati or MotoGuzzi...do they look longingly at the Big 3
> > > Japanese makers and wish they could do the same thing?
> >
> > Could they if they wanted to?
> >
> > Honda + Kawasaki + Suzuki + Yamaha = 3?
> >
> > > Is Ducati going to introduce a scooter soon? Nope...
> >
> > You know what they say about scooters... Speaking of scooters, I see
> > a lot of Honda and Yamaha scooters, but very few Vespa and Puch (or
> > other European makes)? Why is that?
> >
> > > I ask again,Johnny how long did you live in Japan and how often have
> > > you been to Europe?
> >
> > What does this have to do with the attitudes of USians towards imported
> > products?
> >
> > > > The major innovation of reliable indexed shifting, relentless marketing
> > > > (New! New! New! 8Speed! 9Speed! 10Speed! etc, etc.) and a long history
> > > > of questionable business practices.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Pro Japanese, anti European prejudice?
> > >
> > > yep, no doubt about it but not a racist sort of thing, altho the
> > > arrogant/aggresive, Japanese mindset is well docmented, in business as
> > > well as very evident to me, as I lived there for 3 years, onboard the
> > > USS Midway, homeported in Yokosuka, part of the 'plan' to provide
> > > protection to Japan from the Soviets and Chinese, because they saw it
> > > better to let us pay for their protection, than them, a MacArthur
> > > wriiten constitution notwithstanding. wow, that was a long sentence
> >
> > So you admit you have a bias towards European products and against
> > Japanese products?
> >
> > --
> > Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
>
> If you wish, I can describe what it was like to be a USNavy pilot,
> living onboard the USS Midway,and in Japan, and the hostility
> demonstrated towards the US and the military on an almost a daily
> basis. Living in Japan, providing them military protection they are too
> lazy to provide themselves, yes putting my ***** on the line for the
> Japanese, and being spit on..that is priceless...It doesn't endear my
> to the Japanese. Strange too, because treatment by the Filipinos, Thai
> people, Koreans and even Chinese in Hongkong toward the USNavy exactly
> the opposite. What was was consistent tho, was the very low opinion
> those other nationalities had of the Japanese.

The last time I was in Europe people were so obnoxious about the US
that I ended up defending the politicians and policies I despise (and
this was long before George II).

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> > > Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > > > D'ohBoy wrote:
> > > > > > OB wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Make no mistake, Shimano does understand bicycles and, more
> > > > > > > importantly, the bicycle *market*. To the uninitiated, indexed front
> > > > > > > shifting can seem "magical". And most of these folks neither know nor
> > > > > > > care about the limitations imposed by indexed front shifting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Harumph. These are limits imposed by Shimano's implementation, not
> > > > > > specific to indexed front shifting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Some, perhaps, are due to Shimano's implementation. Others, such as
> > > > > being fussy about the design of the FD seem to be inherent in indexed
> > > > > front shifting (just a indexed rear shifting is fussy about the design
> > > > > of the RD).
> > > > >
> > > > > FWIW, IMO, indexed front shifting is a case of a solution in search of
> > > > > a problem (especially on doubles).
> > > >
> > > > I can only imagine how nasty this thread is going to get but...this
> > > > thread is the problem that I have with shimano. They are gigantic, they
> > > > create 'standards' and their size dictates the market. Their arrogance
> > > > means they see the market as theirs to manipulate, and they don't
> > > > really care if the gear they design and produce is the best for the
> > > > cyclist or not. They view their ideas the 'best', and anything else is
> > > > inferior, regardless if it works or not. Double only STI, octalink,
> > > > SPD-R, cart HS that were a bigger stack height than ball
> > > > bearing(rendering a whole bunch of forks obsolete), 7400 DA that was
> > > > compatible only with itself, hyperglide, not compatible with uniglide,
> > > > now 10s only onto 7800 hubs and wheels...etc.
> > >
> > > Yeah, what company was responsible for all the new road bikes having an
> > > unnecessary 10th gear in the back anyhow?
> > >
> > > If Shimano is so bad,
> >
> > Neither Peter Chisholm nor I have said Shimano is "bad".
> >
> >
> > > what did they come to dominate the market?
> >
> > The major innovation of reliable indexed shifting, relentless marketing
> > (New! New! New! 8Speed! 9Speed! 10Speed! etc, etc.) and a long history
> > of questionable business practices.
>
> The introduction of 10-speed cassettes for road use was from
> Campagnolo, not Shimano.
>

Yes, Tom, I do know that. But being second didn't keep Shimano from
making a B-I-G deal over 20SP, did it?

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> > > Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > > >
> > > > As Johnny sunset implied...does Toyota dominate the car market, or
> > > > their segment?
> > >
> > > Along with Honda they dominate the East Asian markets. In the US, the
> > > "Big 3" have to sell cars with little or no profit much of the time
> > > with 0% financing and huge rebates. Meanwhile, they move production of
> > > vehicles and parts to Mexico and China, while the Japanese build new
> > > factories in the US. Toyota is set to overtake GM as the world's
> > > largest motor vehicle manufacturer.
> > >
> > > In Europe the indigenous manufacturers have done better due to
> > > protectionism and nationalist buying sentiment (the latter also a large
> > > factor in the US), while the high end manufacturers rely much on
> > > prestige value.
> > >
> > > > Is Audi and Porsche and Mercedes Benz looking to unseat
> > > > Toyota? Is Rolex mass producing cheapo watches to unseat Seiko? How
> > > > about Ducati or MotoGuzzi...do they look longingly at the Big 3
> > > > Japanese makers and wish they could do the same thing?
> > >
> > > Could they if they wanted to?
> > >
> > > Honda + Kawasaki + Suzuki + Yamaha = 3?
> > >
> > > > Is Ducati going to introduce a scooter soon? Nope...
> > >
> > > You know what they say about scooters... Speaking of scooters, I see
> > > a lot of Honda and Yamaha scooters, but very few Vespa and Puch (or
> > > other European makes)? Why is that?
> > >
> > > > I ask again,Johnny how long did you live in Japan and how often have
> > > > you been to Europe?
> > >
> > > What does this have to do with the attitudes of USians towards imported
> > > products?
> > >
> > > > > The major innovation of reliable indexed shifting, relentless marketing
> > > > > (New! New! New! 8Speed! 9Speed! 10Speed! etc, etc.) and a long history
> > > > > of questionable business practices.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Pro Japanese, anti European prejudice?
> > > >
> > > > yep, no doubt about it but not a racist sort of thing, altho the
> > > > arrogant/aggresive, Japanese mindset is well docmented, in business as
> > > > well as very evident to me, as I lived there for 3 years, onboard the
> > > > USS Midway, homeported in Yokosuka, part of the 'plan' to provide
> > > > protection to Japan from the Soviets and Chinese, because they saw it
> > > > better to let us pay for their protection, than them, a MacArthur
> > > > wriiten constitution notwithstanding. wow, that was a long sentence
> > >
> > > So you admit you have a bias towards European products and against
> > > Japanese products?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
> >
> > If you wish, I can describe what it was like to be a USNavy pilot,
> > living onboard the USS Midway,and in Japan, and the hostility
> > demonstrated towards the US and the military on an almost a daily
> > basis. Living in Japan, providing them military protection they are too
> > lazy to provide themselves, yes putting my ***** on the line for the
> > Japanese, and being spit on..that is priceless...It doesn't endear my
> > to the Japanese. Strange too, because treatment by the Filipinos, Thai
> > people, Koreans and even Chinese in Hongkong toward the USNavy exactly
> > the opposite. What was was consistent tho, was the very low opinion
> > those other nationalities had of the Japanese.
>
> The last time I was in Europe people were so obnoxious about the US
> that I ended up defending the politicians and policies I despise (and
> this was long before George II).
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

Last there with the USN in 1987/8..lots of time in Italy and Spain..and
the UK..very friendly, very enjoyable, even if they knew we were in the
USN. Only place we were treated poorly was France..why I'll not buy
anything French either. Over my 20 year career, I have spent lots of
time in Europe. except for France, never had any bad experience.
Obnoxious about the US? When who was president? Reagan, Bush I, easy to
not like them...Italy, north, south, both coasts, resort areas, cities,
Rome, Naples, Barcelona, Palma, in Spain..great times. Same for the UK..

 

[Michael Warner]

On 29 Oct 2006 07:19:05 -0800, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:

> Criticism of Shimano is fair game, since they make fishing reels, and
> Shozo Shimano was an industrialist.

Once I randomly turned on the TV in mid-afternoon, to be greeted by the
graphic "Sponsored by Shimano". Ooh, I thought, a cycling show! Nope, it
was about fishing

Seriously, I suspect that Shimano's secret weapons are its close
geographical and cultural proximity to the manufacturing centres of Asia,
and the diversity of its range - you can use Shimano gear to get what you
want on any kind of bike.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>
,
"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Since it is a free market, if these components are overpriced, Shimano
> will have to lower prices to maintain sales volume or accept reduced
> sales.

Not a free market. Shimano parts on many bicycles
because they make it easy and cheap to install their
groups on a bicycle. Most people will never consider
replacing a Shimano part with a Campagnolo part.

--
Michael Press

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Artoi wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > As for the Mac, it may be a better OS in isolation, but for people who
> > need to be compatible with the software used by most businesses, there
> > is little choice but to deal with micro$oft.
>
> Enjoy virus!

I have never had any problems with computer viruses. Of course, I do
not download or run suspicious files, use micro$oft Internet Exploder
or Outhouse, which greatly reduces any risk.

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>
> ,
> "Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Since it is a free market, if these components are overpriced, Shimano
> > will have to lower prices to maintain sales volume or accept reduced
> > sales.
>
> Not a free market. Shimano parts on many bicycles
> because they make it easy and cheap to install their
> groups on a bicycle. Most people will never consider
> replacing a Shimano part with a Campagnolo part.

There are no regulatory barriers that limit the number of bicycle
component manufacturers, or that prevent them from selling their
components OEM or retail, so how is it not a free market?

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>
> ,
> "Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Since it is a free market, if these components are overpriced, Shimano
> > will have to lower prices to maintain sales volume or accept reduced
> > sales.
>
> Not a free market. Shimano parts on many bicycles
> because they make it easy and cheap to install their
> groups on a bicycle.

Shimano sells their product at low prices to their prime customers, the
OEMs. Then, they inflate the "retail" prices of their component groups
(e.g., 105, Ultegra and D-A) to make the Shimano equipped bikes look
like an excellent value. That's what the "Shimano Authorized Internet
Dealer" scheme is all about.


> Most people will never consider
> replacing a Shimano part with a Campagnolo part.
>

IMO, Campagnolo would do a brisk business if they made Shimano
compatability an option on their Ergo brifters. It would be an
effective way to bring cyclists into the Campy family.

 

[Michael Warner]

On 30 Oct 2006 05:12:39 -0800, Ozark Bicycle wrote:

> IMO, Campagnolo would do a brisk business if they made Shimano
> compatability an option on their Ergo brifters. It would be an
> effective way to bring cyclists into the Campy family.

Many people like the idea of routing the gear cables under the bar
tape, but stick with Shimano for other reasons. IMHO Campy would
sell a lot of Shimano-compatible shifters, if they could swallow their
pride a little.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

Michael Warner wrote:
> On 30 Oct 2006 05:12:39 -0800, Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> > IMO, Campagnolo would do a brisk business if they made Shimano
> > compatability an option on their Ergo brifters. It would be an
> > effective way to bring cyclists into the Campy family.
>
> Many people like the idea of routing the gear cables under the bar
> tape, but stick with Shimano for other reasons. IMHO Campy would
> sell a lot of Shimano-compatible shifters, if they could swallow their
> pride a little.
>

Running the cables under the tape is nice, but, IMO, repairability/
changeability (e.g., 9SP to 10SP) and getting rid of the ~%!&^*
Shimano indexed front shifting are the biggest attractions.

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote:

> IMO, Campagnolo would do a brisk business if they made Shimano
> compatability an option on their Ergo brifters. It would be an
> effective way to bring cyclists into the Campy family.

So why would you want to pick Shimano
derailleurs/cassettes/chainrings/cranks if you are willing to pay for
Campag shifters?

In any case, I understand there are third party RD adaptors for this
purpose while the FD can be easily used with Campag Lt shifter.

http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm
--