Campy/Shimano rear derailleur spring differences?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Phil, Squid-in-Training, Dec 23, 2005.

  1. Why do Campy rear derailleurs have such a more direct, stronger, more
    effective return spring that overcomes cable friction far better than
    Shimano rear derailleurs? Is it to overcome cable/housing friction from the
    housing wrapped under the bartape? Shimano's springs are always so weak in
    comparison with that big, high-turn-number accordion spring. It makes
    upshifting slow and unresponsive as it ages.
    --
    Phil, Squid-in-Training
     
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  2. Bill Sornson

    Bill Sornson Guest

    Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
    > Why do Campy rear derailleurs have such a more direct, stronger, more
    > effective return spring that overcomes cable friction far better than
    > Shimano rear derailleurs?


    Troll.

    <eg>
     
  3. Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
    > Why do Campy rear derailleurs have such a more direct, stronger, more
    > effective return spring that overcomes cable friction far better than
    > Shimano rear derailleurs? Is it to overcome cable/housing friction from the
    > housing wrapped under the bartape? Shimano's springs are always so weak in
    > comparison with that big, high-turn-number accordion spring. It makes
    > upshifting slow and unresponsive as it ages.
    > --
    > Phil, Squid-in-Training


    Well, shimano prides itself on soft, low effort shifting and it has
    been said the best a shimano STI will work is the first day.
    Campagnolo, by comparison, use stronger springs and even with the
    'watch' spring in the lever to make the shift 'softer', still is
    clunkier than shimano.

    I think it's just a difference in philosophy, kinda like BMW m/c
    transmissions which last forever but are always clunky, particulalry
    when going into first gear.
     
  4. sunderland

    sunderland Guest

    A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who are
    running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not replacing your
    $50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.

    If you do run decent cables, Shimano's shifting is quicker and easier.
    It is a philosophy difference: better but needs more maintenance, or
    not quite as good but more consistent with poor maintenance. Your
    choice.

    A lot of the perceived difference in BMW transmissions is because of
    the dry clutch. Ducati transmissions have some of the same quirks. It
    is true that the BMW gears and dogs themselves are heavier than most
    other manufacturers - so they are harder to move, but last longer. Very
    much like Campagnolo.
     
  5. Lou Holtman

    Lou Holtman Guest

    "sunderland" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who are
    > running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not replacing your
    > $50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.
    >
    > If you do run decent cables, Shimano's shifting is quicker and easier.


    Shimano doesn't shift quicker or better. Maybe easier for some but not
    quicker.

    Lou
     
  6. An apprentice cephalopod wrote:

    > Why do Campy rear derailleurs have such a more direct, stronger, more
    > effective return spring that overcomes cable friction far better than
    > Shimano rear derailleurs? Is it to overcome cable/housing friction from the
    > housing wrapped under the bartape? Shimano's springs are always so weak in
    > comparison with that big, high-turn-number accordion spring. It makes
    > upshifting slow and unresponsive as it ages.


    Shimano has always placed a premium on providing a "light action" to
    their controls.

    More recent Campagnolo Ergos also provide this by using a counter-spring
    in the brifter (a concept copied from older Shimano bar-end shifters.)

    There is also a theory that Shimano deliberately softened the springs in
    their derailers in the early '90s in an attempt to make them less
    compatible with SRAM GripShifters.

    Sheldon "Conspiracy?" Brown
    +-----------------------------------------+
    | When I cannot sing my heart, |
    | I can only speak my mind... |
    | --John Lennon |
    +-----------------------------------------+
    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  7. Mark Janeba

    Mark Janeba Guest

    Sheldon Brown wrote:
    > An apprentice cephalopod wrote:
    >
    >> Why do Campy rear derailleurs have such a more direct, stronger, more
    >> effective return spring that overcomes cable friction far better than
    >> Shimano rear derailleurs? Is it to overcome cable/housing friction
    >> from the housing wrapped under the bartape? Shimano's springs are
    >> always so weak in comparison with that big, high-turn-number accordion
    >> spring. It makes upshifting slow and unresponsive as it ages.

    >
    >
    > Shimano has always placed a premium on providing a "light action" to
    > their controls.


    Interesting. I had always thought that "light action" referred to the
    shift *levers*, not the derailleurs - IIRC, first (modern) generation
    Shimano indexing levers were very stiff and loud (yes, LOUD); I thought
    the "light action" idea was to soften the clicks in the indexing. Was I
    completely wrong?

    Mark
     
  8. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:17:11 -0800, Mark Janeba
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Sheldon Brown wrote:
    >> An apprentice cephalopod wrote:
    >>
    >>> Why do Campy rear derailleurs have such a more direct, stronger, more
    >>> effective return spring that overcomes cable friction far better than
    >>> Shimano rear derailleurs? Is it to overcome cable/housing friction
    >>> from the housing wrapped under the bartape? Shimano's springs are
    >>> always so weak in comparison with that big, high-turn-number accordion
    >>> spring. It makes upshifting slow and unresponsive as it ages.

    >>
    >>
    >> Shimano has always placed a premium on providing a "light action" to
    >> their controls.

    >
    >Interesting. I had always thought that "light action" referred to the
    >shift *levers*, not the derailleurs - IIRC, first (modern) generation
    >Shimano indexing levers were very stiff and loud (yes, LOUD); I thought
    >the "light action" idea was to soften the clicks in the indexing. Was I
    >completely wrong?


    My experience with the older Shimano stuff would support the "easier
    via less spring tension" hypothesis. Many older midrange and low-end
    bikes I've seen with the traditional friction shifters would simply
    not say put unless the shifter friction setting was rather high. And
    with gripshifts it was worse, if anything; the amount of force needed
    to shift the stiff-spring units against the combination of cable drag,
    gripshift friction and detents, and spring tension was enough to make
    me swear off ever having another gripshift...despite the fact that the
    more modern setups are significantly less egregious. (I still don't
    use them on my own bikes, though.)
    --
    Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    Some gardening required to reply via email.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  9. Lou Holtman wrote:
    > "sunderland" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who
    >> are running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not replacing
    >> your $50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.
    >>
    >> If you do run decent cables, Shimano's shifting is quicker and
    >> easier.

    >
    > Shimano doesn't shift quicker or better. Maybe easier for some but not
    > quicker.


    Most definitely not quicker. I got used to pedaling a 1/8th turn of the
    cranks before the chain would engage the smaller cogs in the back with my
    old Shimano DT shifting. With my Campy Centaur derailleur, the upshifting
    is so fast that I don't release pressure on the pedals early enough and
    accidentally clunk into it because it shifts before I'm used to it shifting.
    It just feels like the derailleur is tightly wound and has more spring
    tension in both the parallelogram and the derailleur cage. I don't think
    it's more *accurate* however. And the shifter feel is pretty poor in Campy
    shifters, whereas Shimano's 10-speed shifters (not the derailleurs) are so
    smooth and fluid... it's a pleasure to shift. The hood shape on the S10
    shifters is narrow and painful, though.

    --
    Phil, Squid-in-Training
     
  10. Lou Holtman

    Lou Holtman Guest

    Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
    > Lou Holtman wrote:
    >
    >>"sunderland" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]
    >>
    >>>A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who
    >>>are running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not replacing
    >>>your $50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.
    >>>
    >>>If you do run decent cables, Shimano's shifting is quicker and
    >>>easier.

    >>
    >>Shimano doesn't shift quicker or better. Maybe easier for some but not
    >>quicker.

    >
    >
    > Most definitely not quicker. I got used to pedaling a 1/8th turn of the
    > cranks before the chain would engage the smaller cogs in the back with my
    > old Shimano DT shifting. With my Campy Centaur derailleur, the upshifting
    > is so fast that I don't release pressure on the pedals early enough and
    > accidentally clunk into it because it shifts before I'm used to it shifting.
    > It just feels like the derailleur is tightly wound and has more spring
    > tension in both the parallelogram and the derailleur cage. I don't think
    > it's more *accurate* however. And the shifter feel is pretty poor in Campy
    > shifters, whereas Shimano's 10-speed shifters (not the derailleurs) are so
    > smooth and fluid... it's a pleasure to shift. The hood shape on the S10
    > shifters is narrow and painful, though.
    >



    I like the shifter feel of Campy, so once again it comes down to
    personal preference. More or less accurate? Click = shift, with Campy
    and with Shimano, so again personal preference. There are situations
    where Campy shift faster, but not more accurate in the sense of click =
    shift.

    Lou
    --
    Posted by news://news.nb.nu
     
  11. Lou Holtman wrote:
    > Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
    >> Lou Holtman wrote:
    >>
    >>> "sunderland" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email protected]
    >>>
    >>>> A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who
    >>>> are running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not
    >>>> replacing your $50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.
    >>>>
    >>>> If you do run decent cables, Shimano's shifting is quicker and
    >>>> easier.
    >>>
    >>> Shimano doesn't shift quicker or better. Maybe easier for some but
    >>> not quicker.

    >>
    >>
    >> Most definitely not quicker. I got used to pedaling a 1/8th turn of
    >> the cranks before the chain would engage the smaller cogs in the
    >> back with my old Shimano DT shifting. With my Campy Centaur
    >> derailleur, the upshifting is so fast that I don't release pressure
    >> on the pedals early enough and accidentally clunk into it because it
    >> shifts before I'm used to it shifting. It just feels like the
    >> derailleur is tightly wound and has more spring tension in both the
    >> parallelogram and the derailleur cage. I don't think it's more
    >> *accurate* however. And the shifter feel is pretty poor in Campy
    >> shifters, whereas Shimano's 10-speed shifters (not the derailleurs)
    >> are so smooth and fluid... it's a pleasure to shift. The hood shape
    >> on the S10 shifters is narrow and painful, though.

    >
    >
    > I like the shifter feel of Campy, so once again it comes down to
    > personal preference. More or less accurate? Click = shift, with Campy
    > and with Shimano, so again personal preference. There are situations
    > where Campy shift faster, but not more accurate in the sense of click
    > = shift.


    For me it's easier to over-downshift with the lever on Campy. Click =
    doubleshift then quickly back up one gear. I probably just don't have the
    finesse with it, but I haven't ridden it all semester due to school.
    --
    Phil, Squid-in-Training
     
  12. In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    >
    >
    >A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who are
    >running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not replacing your
    >$50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.


    $50 cables? Seems damn expensive. I can get the stuff for $1/foot at my
    LBS which is not exactly known for selling stuff cheap.
    -------------
    Alex
     
  13. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] says...
    >>A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who are
    >>running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not replacing your
    >>$50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.


    Alex Rodriguez wrote:
    > $50 cables? Seems damn expensive. I can get the stuff for $1/foot at my
    > LBS which is not exactly known for selling stuff cheap.


    Yes some casing is $1/foot.

    Shimano brand gear casing costs your dealer close to that.
    Complete brake/gear sets with all the little bits range $25
    to $50

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  14. Llatikcuf

    Llatikcuf Guest

    > Alex Rodriguez wrote:
    > > $50 cables? Seems damn expensive. I can get the stuff for $1/foot at my
    > > LBS which is not exactly known for selling stuff cheap.

    >
    > Yes some casing is $1/foot.
    >
    > Shimano brand gear casing costs your dealer close to that.
    > Complete brake/gear sets with all the little bits range $25
    > to $50
    >


    My LBS charges $1.99/ft for the cheap black no name stuff. $1/ft What a
    deal!
    Bought 3ft of brake and shifter cable last week - $12.73!!!!

    -Nate
     
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