Campy Ultra Torque Click / Tick Revisited

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by CAMPYBOB, Mar 17, 2014.

  1. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/roguemechanic/2008/09/campagnolo-ul-1.html

    This mechanic (John) correctly diagnosed and fixed the notorious Campy Ultra-Torque 'click / tick / clunk'.

    He was roundly chastised by da scientist types on the Road Bike Review forums, yet was 110% correct in 2008 and is still correct today. The intarwebz is a funny place sometimes...
     
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  2. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    I had read about this problem before picking up my Athena group and almost went with the PT version but had also heard enough from folks who's UT cranks ran noise free. I have run my UT crank on an English threaded Cinelli and a Cannondale BB30 with an adapter. Between the two set ups have logged more than 3-4k miles so far luckily with no ticking/clicking. I even remember telling my mechanic to reface the BB shell on the Cinelli and also half jokingly said "make sure you don't forget that wavy washer". It was when I was looking for BB30 UT adapters when I really started reading the horror stories on the forums about unwanted BB music. In the end I went with the Wheels Manufacturing adapter (the Campy adapter would have forced me to ditch the bearings that came with the frame) and the crank's running well.
     
  3. jpr95

    jpr95 Active Member

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    I bet it Hirth you to know that my Shimano Ultegra crankset and HollowTech (II?--don't recall) BB don't make any noise. ;)
     
  4. maydog

    maydog Well-Known Member

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    Yes my GXP BBs are silent as well - though my cussing is pretty loud when the crank fixation bolt snaps.
     
  5. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Great...Hirth jokes! [​IMG]

    I wish I would have known about The Rogue Mechanic's website when I first encountered the Ultra-Torque 'tick'!

    I was told the BB bearings were faulty...replaced.
    I padded my pedals with tape to isolate cleat noise.
    I replaced the cleats.
    I replaced the pedals.
    I tightened every fastener on the bike repeatedly.
    I tore apart and greased the BB assembly parts several times.

    I actually bought a new pair of shoes to try, thinking the click may have been coming from an internally crack sole plate!!!

    Finally! In complete desperation to stop the infernal ticking noise I ordered a couple 1 mm and 2 mm bearing cup shims DESPITE my frame's BB shell being on the HIGH SIDE of the width tolerance and milled square to the bore axis and parallel within ±.002" as checked on my granite table!!!

    It took a full TWO mm of spacer behind the left side outboard bearing cup to cure the noise.

    My next bike took 1 mm of spacer to cure its ticking. That shell was right on the high limit for width.

    Both of these bikes were built by pro mechanics at Colorado Cyclist and Competitive Cyclist and neither outfit had a freakin' clue as to why the cranks were knocking or how to cure it.

    The Rogue Mechanic figured out Campy's idiotic up 'wave washer' (actually, a Belleville Washer is the correct nomenclature) design. He figured out what the problem was (excessive and uncontrolled travel endplay due to tolerance stackup and near zero preload under pedaling forces) and how to cure it (reducing side clearance in the BB assembly to levels that reduce side-to-side movement in the crank spindle assembly).

    I figured it out, also. After an entire summer of listening to that damned noise and untold labor, time and expense. A pox on Campagnolo for introducing that insanely retarded design and releasing it to the public.

    It's as screwed up as maydog's Truvativ GXP self-destructive cap bolts! [​IMG]

    And now we all get to use Campagnolo's new 'Over Torque' design. I have not worked on one yet, but the technical documentation indicates it's even MORE retarded and complicated design and involves the use of several new proprietary tools.
     
  6. jpr95

    jpr95 Active Member

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    So you could always switch to ShimaNO from..."shim-a-yes". Ha! I kill me!
     
  7. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    I would sooner install my old Valentino 5-speed group on a Gen. 1 Cannonwhale made from recycled Budweiser cans with randonneur bars and a Brooks B17 Imperial before I was seen with shimaNO! [​IMG]
     
  8. jpr95

    jpr95 Active Member

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    Uhhh...Fruh-GEE-lay...it must be Eye-talian!
     
  9. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    I'm slipping! I called it a Belleville washer! It's not...it's a type of disc spring.
     
  10. jpr95

    jpr95 Active Member

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    A Belleville washer might just fit the bill. If you can stand to have a non-Eye-talian part on your CampagNOlo-equipped bike.
     
  11. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    The Wilier may say, "WWW.WILIER.IT" on the chainstay, but it should say, "WWW.CHICOMCRAP.COM".
     
  12. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    As great as Campagnolo is, sometimes they DO come up with some dubious designs ...

    AND, needing to use a "tool" to remove the non-driveside crank arm is too reminiscent of needing a crank puller for a square taper crank ...

    Needing a crank puller is an unnecessary, 20th Century legacy which was superseded by the use of pinch bolts (BMX cranks, first, followed by Shimano, et al) to secure the non-driveside arm ...

    Maybe, the Power Torque & Over Torque designs are intended to make the Ultra Torque design look better!?!

    OR, a variant was the original, post-square taper crank/BB design which was too me-too at the time ...

    AND/OR, maybe there will be PT2 & OT2 cranks which will use a simple bolt to secure the non-driveside crank arm similar to FSA's carbon fiber MegaExo crank's non-driveside crank bolt.
     
  13. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    A 150-200 pound human stomping on a 170-175 MM lever can exert one hellova set of radial and axial loads on a crankset.

    I'ld like to meet the Eyetalian Engineer(s) that sat at his computer and dreamed up that application of using a .015" thick wave washer to tame that thrust load. Deflecting a wave washer until one bit of steel or aluminum bangs into another is...child's play.

    He(they) should be made to listen to that infernal damned ticking sound until they're insane enough that we never have to worry about his(their) next design.

    And yes, "Over Torque" sucks from the very moronic name chosen for Campy's latest abortion method of attaching two sticks to and axle to the drawer full of proprietary tools required install and remove said sticks to the 15 pages of instructions and pictures and two videos needed to be watched so said proprietary tools are used properly on said sticks.

    Alf, did you check out he new threaded locking collar now used to control preload/endplay?

    What.
    The.
    Hell?
     
  14. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    More like, Wednesday Thursday Friday?!?

    FWIW. Not that the folks in Vicenza care what 'I' think ...

    But, based on my limited-and-superficial understanding of the O-T Crankset, I think the Campagnolo engineers have finally jumped-the-shark with the Over Torque Crankset/BB design ...

    The O-T Crankset might have been acceptable if it had preceded the Ultra Torque & Power Torque Cranksets ...

    By my reckoning, the O-T crank design follows what can only be described as a pre-Tullio design philosophy which also harkens to pre-IR (as in "Industrial Revolution") thinking where simplicity is shunned in favor of the alternative ...

    Oh sure, it's nice that there are apparently seals where an extra slathering of grease was supposed to be used with the Ultra Torque crank installation ... but, an excess of additional small parts can be (is!) a nuisance, IMO ...

    So, while Shimano's apparent philosophy of facilitating mass assembly on the production line unfortunately also means disposable components, I think that managers/owners of small bike shops would-or-should think twice before ponying up another $100+ for a proprietary tool which might be used 2x a year AND become obsolete before there was any hope of recouping the cost of the tool ...

    Heck, EVEN Shimano ultimately realized that the proprietary headset wrench [and, you needed TWO] for its fluted locknuts was not a good idea.

    If I were a race-or-"team"-or-any-type-of-neutral-support mechanic then I would suggest that the non-sponsored rider consider using a comparatively generic FSA-or-Shimano Crankset or older generation Campagnolo Crankset OR let the bike's BB go un-serviced at-or-during the event OR make him/her buy-and-bring the O-T installation/removal tool.

    No matter (to me, anyway) ...

    There will probably be a UT30 crank in 2015-or-2016 which will make the first (and hopefully, last?) generation of O-T cranks "collectors" items (not unlike the Delta brakes).
     
  15. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Over Thought Torque may well be the most complicated BB/crankset design in the history of cycling.

    Remember those happy days where all one had to do was make sure the axle was in correctly and a bit of grunt and groan was applied to those foot-long tools?

    Uber lightweight carbon, EPS and Over Torque may cause early retirement among more than a few LBS mechanics. It's no wonder the kiddies are riding shimaNO and SCRAM in droves. I'm getting damned close to buying my first non-Campy Group in over 40 years of riding and wrenching. First Campy cuts major chunks of components from their lines (no seatposts?!?! only one FRENCH pedal?!?!) and then they go full retard...

    Never go full retard.
     
  16. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    Where is CampyBob and what have you done with him!?

    [​IMG]
     
  17. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Heheh! I started off on French crap (Huret and Simplex and Atom and Lyotard and Pivo and AVA crap).

    I'm sure SCRAM 22 is an improvement!
     
  18. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    After a while you get over it.
     
  19. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Only with a Miche 24-speed setup.
     
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