Can I switch my 1984 Pinarello to index shifting?

[river251]

I love my Pinarello. I have been looking at a Masi Gran Criterium aluminum/carbon, but my Pinarello feels better.
Can I switch it to index shifting? If the rear width is too narrow, can I find a frame that will take all my components but allow index shifting?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[Motobecane]

how many speeds is it presently? Even if its a little narrow, you can easily put a 130mm wheel into a steel frame bike. Heck, I have a 135mm mtb rear wheel on my modern aluminum with carbon seat stay bikes with no issues. 2.5 mm each side isn't all that much.

The real question here is going to be how much are you willing to spend to get it to index shifting. bike that old is going to require new RD along with the shifters of your liking and potentially a new wheel.

 

[river251]

Thanks, it's a 5 speed rear end.
Jim

 

[Motobecane]

not sure if you saw the rest of my post, i edited it as I submitted it early by accident.

being from 84 it's probably 126mm dropouts, you would be better off checking just to make sure. If it is, you won't have an issue getting a modern wheel with 130mm spacing to fit in there. but as previously mentioned, you'll need a new wheel, casette, chain, rd, shifters so the costs will definately start adding up.


In rereading the 2nd half of your message it sounds like you want to keep it geared as a 5 speed but just have indexing. I don't know authoritatively but I wouldn't be surprised if someone has done it, but it would probably be more trouble than it's worth.

 

[steve]

Originally Posted by river251 .

I love my Pinarello. I have been looking at a Masi Gran Criterium aluminum/carbon, but my Pinarello feels better.

I've had some pretty decent bikes over the years, but the best frame I have used was built with reynolds 753 that in the early 90s. I can understand you wanting to hang on to the Pinarello.

Cost will be your only issue!

 

[river251]

Thanks much. No, I really don't care how many speeds in the rear it has. My thinking is fewer gears = less shifting but I suppose with index it's better to have more and match your need better since shifting is easy. But I don't really care. 9 is fine, is that the 130 back end you are talking about?

Thanks again.
Jim

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Jim,
There's a few questions bundled up here. It breaks down something like this:

- Five, Six and Seven speed rear freewheels and cassettes used axles with that were 126mm long from locknut to locknut. Starting with 8 speed rear clusters the bike industry switched to 130mm rear spacing. Steel and most aluminum frames can either be forcibly respaced to the wider spacing or in general you can just spread the rear stays apart when inserting the wheel and a newer hub with 130mm spacing will fit into your frame. I did just that for a few years before taking the time to get my mid '80s Davidson steel frame respaced to 130mm. So if you want to go to an 8, 9, 10 or 11 speed rear cluster you'll either have to force the hub in every time you change the wheel or have the rear triangle respaced which is an easy thing to do or to have done.

- You say you want 'indexed shifting' that first came about IIRC with the early 7 speed systems, I could be wrong my memory aint what it used to be but I ran friction shifting with my five and six speed clusters and didn't go to my first Shimano SIS system until I swapped to 7 speed freewheels. Those early indexed shifters brought 'click shifting' to the sport but they were still down tube or bar end mounted shifters. IOW, the early indexed systems were not integrated into the brake levers. It's still possible to find early Shimano 600, Dura Ace or other down tube mounted indexed shifters and their associated rear derailleurs and rear cogs (freewheels or cassettes depending on your hub) but these are generally on the used or 'new old stock' market pretty hard to find in most shops as current inventory. So if you just want indexing you can get that with 7 speed systems but you'll probably have to look around a bit. There are actually more new options for flat bar bikes and mountain bikes but most are pretty clunky and fairly low end for mounting on your vintage Pinarello.

- Integrated brake shifter units (brifters) were widely introduced along with 8 speed rear clusters (mostly cassettes by this point) and along with the 130mm rear dropout spacing. So if you want shifting up on the handlebars and integrated with road brake levers you're pretty much talking about a newer 8, 9, 10 or 11 speed rear cluster and a rear derailleur that matches your shifters.

Personally I think the best bang for your buck right now is a decent 9 speed setup as they're still new enough to be available in many product lines but off the cutting edge enough to be found at really good deals. BTW, with the move to cassettes and free hubs you also have to match up Campy hubs to Campy cassettes and Campy rear derailleurs and brifters or go with Shimano or SRAM compatible drive trains. IOW, you're more locked into a specific brand of drive train (rear gearing, shifting and derailleur, front cranksets, derailleurs and shifters are much easier to mix and match) so if you've got a hankering to run Campy on a classic Pinarello then realize that you have to pay attention to compatibility when sourcing your rear wheel and a lot of your drive train. Same for going the other way, there are some conversion cassettes from Shimano hubs to Campy cog spacing but it's added expense and hassle.

I'm sure I mangled some of the history and the finer points but yes you can definitely move from friction shifting to some form of indexed shifting and that could include indexed downtube mounted levers or fully integrated brake shifter units. There are good discussions on drive train compatibility from the late grate Sheldon Brown here: http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html

Good luck,
-Dave

-

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by river251

I love my Pinarello. I have been looking at a Masi Gran Criterium aluminum/carbon, but my Pinarello feels better.
Can I switch it to index shifting? If the rear width is too narrow, can I find a frame that will take all my components but allow index shifting?

YES -- you can switch your Pinarello to indexed shifting ...

As daveryanwyoming noted, you can either go with downtube shifters + a ([COLOR= #808080]SunRace[/COLOR]) 7-speed Freewheel OR you can choose more contemporary shifters. The cogs on a 7-speed [COLOR= #ff0000]SunRace[/COLOR] Freewheel are ramped AND spaced for Shimano indexing.

• Of course, I recommend that you choose 10-speed (non-QS) Campagnolo shifters with Shimano derailleurs & cassettes.
  

The BEAUTY of the Campagnolo 10-speed shifter is that it will index with 7-/8-/9-/10-speed Shimano cassettes with negligible or minimal effort.

The BEAUTY of Shimano rear hubs is that they can be made to fit 120mm-to-135mm rear dropouts (plus, tandems, of course).

If you don't want to respace the rear triangle on your Pinarello, then the indexing may-or-may-not be be a bit dodgy because the dropouts won't be parallel if you only spread the dropouts on an ad hoc basis UNLESS the dropouts are currently slightly boat-tailed.

Here's my mid-80s OLMO whose rear droputs I respaced to 130mm:

​

The bike has 10-speed Campagnolo shifters ...

Originally, I used a hubbub'd XTR (950) rear derailleur to achieve 9-speed Shimano indexing before switching to the 10-speed 105 rear derailleur that is in the picture.

FYI. While you can simply remove the spacer on the non-driveside to turn a 130mm Shimano rear hub into a 126mm rear hub, you'll end up with Campagnolo-like flange offset where the driveside spokes are subsequently pretty close to the bike's center plane.

• Shimano's original 7-speed Freehubs had a shorter Freehub body -- that "compact" Freehub body can still be found on the least expensive of the Shimano Freehubs (e.g., ACERA).

• The original "Compact" Freehubs used a threaded last cog ... the ACERA Freehub body uses a lockring -- a good thing.

• As Sheldon Brown noted, you can stack eight 9-speed cogs on the Compact Freehub body ...

• The 10-speed Campagnolo shifter + 8-/9-speed Shimano rear derailleur yields 8-speed Shimano indexing ... 7-speed indexing is close-enough that this will work, too, if you choose a ramped SunRace Freewheel.

• The 10-speed Campagnolo shifter (non-QS is better!) + a [COLOR= #ff0000]hubbub'd[/COLOR] 9-speed Shimano rear derailleur creates 9-speed Shimano index spacing ...

​

• As pictured on my Olmo, a 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur with the rear derailleur cable attached "normally" yields 9-speed Shimano indexing, too.
  

BTW. I created a 120mm Shimano rear hub by BOTH removing the non-driveside spacer AND installing a "compact" Freehub body on what was originally a 130mm Shimano rear hub.

 

[river251]

Dave and Alfeng, wow, thanks so much. That was what I was looking for and much more. I've got to go read Sheldon's web site, and then come back and better understand your approaches. One quick question though, Alfeng, if I may: are you saying that if I buy/assemble the right parts, it is possible to put together an 8 or 9 speed setup with brifters, with 126mm spacing? (that is, the rear stays will not have to be spread to 130 permanently or ad hoc) I would be happier not locking myself out of coming back to my Campy New Record derailleur and shifters with a permanent spread.

Thanks, will be back.

I'm particularly excited by this now, I went through a pretty extensive fit at a good shop here, and found that at least for carbon bikes a 56 is a better fit than a 58, so my doubts about the 58 Pinarello being too small have stopped. So now I just need to get some good brifters on there.

Thanks so much again!

Jim

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by river251 .

... are you saying that if I buy/assemble the right parts, it is possible to put together an 8 or 9 speed setup with brifters, with 126mm spacing? (that is, the rear stays will not have to be spread to 130 permanently or ad hoc) I would be happier not locking myself out of coming back to my Campy New Record derailleur and shifters with a permanent spread.

Yes ...

Shimano Freehubs can be readily reconfigured for any rear dropout spacing ...

• ALSO, the DT SWISS 240s ([COLOR= #0000ff]¿[/COLOR][COLOR= #ff0000]?[/COLOR]) hub can be converted from 130mm to ~126mm if you simply replace the non-driveside end cap with the end cap from a Hugi 240 ROAD hub because, AFAIK, the flange spacing on the 's' hubs are closer together and the 240s uses the end cap which was originally used on the 240 MTB hubs ([COLOR= #808080]i.e., the hubs with 135mm spacing[/COLOR]).
• The DT hub is available with either a Shimano-compatible OR a Campagolo-compatibe Freehub body -- there isn't a shorter, compact version BUT a machinist may be able to shorten one if the end-user were really motivated ([COLOR= #808080]a bucks deluxe modification[/COLOR]).

There may be other "modern" hubs which can be converted to fit a frame with 126mm rear spacing.

This is probably stating the obvious, but if you opt for eight 9-speed cogs on a shorter "compact" Freehub body then your shifter-and-rear-derailleur need to be set up for 9-speed indexing,

• I have NOT tried to stack an abbreviated 10-speed Cassette with fewer cogs on a "compact" Shimano Freehub body.

Initially, I think that your best-bet would be to simply buy a SunRace Freewheel which I can guarantee has 7-speed Shimano indexing ... and, RAMPED cogs ([COLOR= #008000]a very good thing[/COLOR]) ... the only (?) drawback to choosing a SunRace Freewheel is the limited variety AND you will need a new Freewheel tool

• I want to say that the SunRace Freewheel tool is close-to-if-not-the-same-as a Campagnolo cassette tool ([COLOR= #808080]who can remember?!?[/COLOR]) ... that won't help you with a Shimano rear hub, of course.

7-speed cog spacing is close enough to 8-speed cog spacing that an 8-speed shifter will work.

BTW. Before I hubbub'd the XTR rear derailleur which I had on my Olmo, I used it with the normal rear derailleur cable connection on a Shimano XT 750 rear derailleur + an unramped-so-unforgiving-if-the-indexing-is-off 8-speed 12-30 XT cassette + a 10-speed Campagnolo shifter -- the shifting was perfect ... and, THAT was a VERY PLEASANT SURPRISE which was the consequence of an idle moment of curiosity as to what the Campagnolo's 10-speed shifter's indexing would be when it was mated to a Shimano rear derailleur.

• A ramped 8-speed SRAM ([COLOR= #808080]or, Shimano![/COLOR]) cassette can probably be shifted with almost any shifter BUT some cogs may be skipped ... so, that is probably true of the 7-speed SunRace Freewheel ([COLOR= #808080]that is, any indexed shifter may work well-enough if you don't mind not having use of one of the intermediate cogs[/COLOR]) ...

• I used a 7-speed SunRace Freewheel on my Peugeot for a year-or-so after finally jettisoning the bike's Helicomatic rear hub and before deciding to use the Peugeot as my test-bed bicycle ....

• The hubbub.com alternate cable anchoring to create 9-speed Shimano indexing was a real revelation which I learned about through SANTANA Tandem bicycles ... and, it was the information I needed to ditch my disappointing 9-speed Shimano shifters!

 

[Motobecane]

while I agree with everything that Alfeng has said, I wouldn't necessarily advise it. You sound as if you aren't the most technically inclined or the type who necessarily does his own work. It starts to get pretty confusing trying to decipher it all. Yes, it's possible that just pushing the wheel in your not going to have a perfect exact centered wheel but lets face it, we are talking about 1 or 2 mm difference, it's essentially negliglble. If you feel that you have to keep it Campy, I would simply get the latest and greatest campy drivetrain and go with it. From the sounds of things, it seems to me that money isn't a huge issue for you. You sound like your prepared to drop significant money on a whole brand new bike, so since your not trying to save a dollar, why do a partial half assed upgrade to 7 speeds just to keep your existing rear wheel?

If your willing to put shimano on there, you can probably do it for less money or certainly have an easier time sourcing the parts you need.

It's too bad Bikes direct doesn't sell Campy equipped bikes because you could just go there and buy a bike in any size and take the groupset off of it and put it onto your pinarello

 

[river251]

Thanks Motobecane, but quit the contrary. This sounds like just my cup of tea. Keeping my sweet Pinarello making me happy, and right now that means shifter/brakes. It will just take me a while as I'm always overcommitted.

I have done most of the work on my cars and trucks as well as all of my motorcycles over the years. I sound like a mechanical lunk head because I'm just not familiar with this issue which is why I appreciated Alfeng and Dave's help so much! I have done most of the work on my bicycles since I was a kid and hey that's been a while. Have disassembled freewheels before and mixed and matched gears. Have a fairly good set of tools for the parts on the Pinarello.

Yes, I could grab a Specialized with not too drastic distress and am thinking hard about the Masi Gran Criterion alum/carbon I rode recently (like the Specialized way more) for a thousand bucks, but I expect I would be just as or more happy with my Pinarello. It just handles like it presages my intentions, no shifting my weight way over and pulling the front end around, and it is comfortable. The feel is right. The only down side is the down tube shifting, I just get tired of it, as much as I love the precision of the New Record gliding almost soundlessly into the desired gear with by now adroit finger touches on the Campy shifters....no brifters will have this precision. Maybe if I was as skinny as I was when I got the thing in 1985 I wouldn't mind as much .

Thanks,
Jim

 

[Motobecane]

by all means go for it. I wasn't ixnaying converting to brifters, I just wouldn't try to get cute create some type of 7speed drivetrain with 10 or 11 speed campy shifters. if you already had a bunch of parts kicking around and were committed to using all those parts then go for it. but if your starting from scratch, I'd just get a new wheelset with campy hub in the back and then get the the campy groupset of your choosing and throw it on that frame. That you can easily do yourself. trying to figure out spacing on cassettes and what you need to jury rig to HOPEFULLLY make your Pinarello work pretty good is silly to me.

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by Motobecane .

by all means go for it. I wasn't ixnaying converting to brifters, I just wouldn't try to get cute create some type of 7speed drivetrain with 10 or 11 speed campy shifters. if you already had a bunch of parts kicking around and were committed to using all those parts then go for it. but if your starting from scratch, I'd just get a new wheelset with campy hub in the back and then get the the campy groupset of your choosing and throw it on that frame. That you can easily do yourself. [COLOR= #ff0000]trying to figure out spacing on cassettes and what you need to jury rig to HOPEFULLLY make your Pinarello work pretty good is silly to me.[/COLOR]

Actually, simply spreading the stays on an ad hoc basis while using any indexed shifting system without having a properly aligned derailleur hanger ([COLOR= #808080]and, dropouts[/COLOR]) is [COLOR= #ff0000]jury rigging[/COLOR] a drivetrain ...

The following chart consolidates & expands on the information which many of us determined either through other sources, or independently ...

​

I love Shimano components ...

But, I will continue to suggest that people who don't know any better are the ones who continue to believe-and-declare that Shimano shifters are as good as it gets because they just don't know OR they are Flatlanders.

 

[river251]

Thanks, Alfeng! Forgive me for not getting to this yet, busy life of academia....but I will soon.

Jim