Can someone explain this TT position (Eric Wohlberg):

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by cdn, Jun 29, 2003.

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  1. cdn

    cdn Guest

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  2. Jim Martin

    Jim Martin Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Is that a Ergostem hes using and are his bars almost touching his front wheel?

    What's to explain? Lower elbow pads reudce his frontal area and he goes faster. How
    complicated is that?

    Cheers,

    Jim

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  3. Phil Holman

    Phil Holman Guest

    "Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Is that a Ergostem hes using and are his bars almost touching his front wheel?
    >
    > What's to explain? Lower elbow pads reudce his frontal area and he
    goes
    > faster. How complicated is that?

    You can overdo this and being able to maintain your power output in such a low position isn't always
    possible for an extended period of time.

    Phil Holman
     
  4. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Phil Holman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > > Is that a Ergostem hes using and are his bars almost touching
    his
    > > > front wheel?
    > >
    > > What's to explain? Lower elbow pads reudce his frontal area and he
    > goes
    > > faster. How complicated is that?
    >
    > You can overdo this and being able to maintain your power output in
    such
    > a low position isn't always possible for an extended period of time.

    While overdoing it didn't Eric just win the Canadian TT championships? Explain how you can criticize
    the setup of the winner.
     
  5. Us

    Us Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote:
    > "Phil Holman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:H7J[email protected]...
    >
    >>"Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]...
    >>
    >>><[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >>>
    >>>>Is that a Ergostem hes using and are his bars almost touching
    >
    > his
    >
    >>>>front wheel?
    >>>
    >>>What's to explain? Lower elbow pads reudce his frontal area and he
    >>
    >>goes
    >>
    >>>faster. How complicated is that?
    >>
    >>You can overdo this and being able to maintain your power output in
    >
    > such
    >
    >>a low position isn't always possible for an extended period of time.
    >
    >
    > While overdoing it didn't Eric just win the Canadian TT championships? Explain how you can
    > criticize the setup of the winner.
    >
    >
    don't think this was a "criticism" as much as an observation...
     
  6. Phil Holman

    Phil Holman Guest

    "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Phil Holman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > > > Is that a Ergostem hes using and are his bars almost touching his front wheel?
    > > >
    > > > What's to explain? Lower elbow pads reudce his frontal area and he goes faster. How
    > > > complicated is that?
    > >
    > >You can overdo this and being able to maintain your power output in such a low position isn't
    > >always possible for an extended period of time.
    >
    > While overdoing it didn't Eric just win the Canadian TT championships? Explain how you can
    > criticize the setup of the winner.

    Tom responds once again with answer that indicates the cheese has slipped off his cracker. I don't
    have to explain this to anyone except you and I'm trying not to do that any more.

    Phil Holman
     
  7. Lower isn't _always_ necessarily better, though, is it? Some frontal area measurements I did of Matt
    DeCanio earlier this year tend to confirm this. The method I used to document frontal area was
    similar to the one I did on myself at:

    http://tinyurl.com/c0td

    --
    ==================
    Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
    ==================
     
  8. "Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Is that a Ergostem hes using and are his bars almost touching his front wheel?
    >
    > What's to explain? Lower elbow pads reudce his frontal area and he goes faster. How complicated
    > is that?

    Does anyone have the url for the photo in discussion? My newsserver is not picking up the first post
    of this thread.
     
  9. Decanio "before" (where the goal was ostensibly to get "low") and "after" some tweaks which clearly
    resulted in a taller, but narrower position:

    http://tinyurl.com/floa

    one example where "caveman" (thanks, Andy) fit techniques prevailed in the world of hard data.

    --
    ==================
    Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
    ==================
     
  10. Ronald

    Ronald Guest

    > Does anyone have the url for the photo in discussion? My newsserver is not picking up the first
    > post of this thread.

    Here is the first post again:

    Is that a Ergostem hes using and are his bars almost touching his front wheel?

    http://www.canadiancyclist.com/races03/roadnationals/itt/elitemen/pages/DSC_
    0051.htm

    His "Lemond" is a Cervelo correct? Does his bike have a headtube?

    http://www.canadiancyclist.com/races03/roadnationals/itt/elitemen/pages/DSC_
    52.htm

    BTW he demolished the field at the Canadian TT Championships.
     
  11. John Rees

    John Rees Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Is that a Ergostem hes using and are his bars almost touching his front wheel?
    >
    >
    http://www.canadiancyclist.com/races03/roadnationals/itt/elitemen/pages/DSC_0051.htm

    This rider is relatively short, and because of the frame size (and almost non-existent head tube) he
    rides, it is harder to get a low time trial position. His TT position is not so unusual if you just
    look at the rider. That set-up was all he could do to get a position he liked. I seem to remember
    that Postal had to do some extra machining on Heras' TT bike to get him low enough too. Heras is
    also a shorter than average rider. For someone in the 5'7" and up range, you'd have to be pretty
    darn flexible to need such a set-up. Abraham Olanao used to have some odd TT set-ups, but I don't
    remember how tall he is.

    > His "Lemond" is a Cervelo correct? Does his bike have a headtube?
    >
    >
    http://www.canadiancyclist.com/races03/roadnationals/itt/elitemen/pages/DSC_0057.htm
    >

    Yep, without a doubt, a Cervelo 'Lemond' just like the 'Looks' CSC ran last year.

    John Rees
     
  12. Wow dooshbag, I thought he was more saying "you can overdo it, power can be harder to maintain" not
    saying that Eric did that.

    Rope

    "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Phil Holman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > > > Is that a Ergostem hes using and are his bars almost touching
    > his
    > > > > front wheel?
    > > >
    > > > What's to explain? Lower elbow pads reudce his frontal area and he
    > > goes
    > > > faster. How complicated is that?
    > >
    > > You can overdo this and being able to maintain your power output in
    > such
    > > a low position isn't always possible for an extended period of time.
    >
    > While overdoing it didn't Eric just win the Canadian TT championships? Explain how you can
    > criticize the setup of the winner.
     
  13. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "John Rees" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Is that a Ergostem hes using and are his bars almost touching his front wheel?
    > >
    >
    http://www.canadiancyclist.com/races03/roadnationals/itt/elitemen/page
    s/DSC_0051.htm
    >
    > This rider is relatively short, and because of the frame size (and
    almost
    > non-existent head tube) he rides, it is harder to get a low time
    trial
    > position.

    Nevertheless, I think that in a wind tunnel this guy would test really high drag. Note that his arms
    and body have opened an air scoop in his chest area. Pulling the stem up and forward would close
    this up but I don't remember what the UCI regulations on that are.

    Eric must be one strong guy or the competition must have not been on that day.
     
  14. Jim Martin

    Jim Martin Guest

    "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote
    > Nevertheless, I think that in a wind tunnel this guy would test really high drag. Note that his
    > arms and body have opened an air scoop in his chest area.

    Ah... irony. We don't get irony around here anymore.

    Anyway, once he sits down he looks a little more like this:
    http://www.canoe.ca/PanAmImages/jul25_15.jpg

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  15. Jim Martin

    Jim Martin Guest

    "Kraig Willett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Lower isn't _always_ necessarily better, though, is it?

    All other things being the same, lower elbow positions generally reduce frontal area.

    In the web site you reference, you moved the elbows out wide so that they were no longer within the
    profile of the torso. Thus, all other things were not the same and net frontal area was increased by
    a combination of reduced frontal area of the head and torso but increased (exposed) frontal area of
    the arms. What do you think your results would have been if you had used an adjustable stem (as does
    Wohlberg) to maintain the elbow width while lowering elbow pads?

    Of course you may eventually reach a point at which further lowering the elbows does not reduce
    frontal area because the highest point on the back doesn't change. However, that is SO far away from
    the point that most cyclists will ever reach that its somewhat of a moot point.

    Cheers,

    Jim

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  16. Well judging by that photo I'm wondering why he doesn't stuff his cigarette packs up his jersey
    sleeve like everybody else? And why has he chosen to stick one up *EACH* side of his shorts for a
    relatively short ITT?

    >
    >Ah... irony. We don't get irony around here anymore.
    >
    >Anyway, once he sits down he looks a little more like this:
    >http://www.canoe.ca/PanAmImages/jul25_15.jpg
    >
    >
    >---
    >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    >Version: 6.0.493 / Virus Database: 292 - Release Date: 6/25/2003
     
  17. Amit

    Amit Guest

    "Kraig Willett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Lower isn't _always_ necessarily better, though, is it? Some frontal area measurements I did of
    > Matt DeCanio earlier this year tend to confirm this. The method I used to document frontal area
    > was similar to the one I did on myself at:
    >

    In fact Eric is seems to be using a more upright position than I've seen him use in the past.
    Perhaps he opened up his position because of the amount of climbing this year's TT involved.

    He does use 700C wheels currently (contrary to what Jame says), in some other pictures you can see
    he is even lower and the top of his wheel projects between his aerobars.

    -Amit
     
  18. Amit

    Amit Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Well judging by that photo I'm wondering why he doesn't stuff his cigarette packs up his jersey
    > sleeve like everybody else? And why has he chosen to stick one up *EACH* side of his shorts for a
    > relatively short ITT?
    >

    Probably for the Worlds most of the riders will go back to putting their smokes in their sleeves, as
    that is the local style in Hamilton.

    -Amit
     
  19. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote:
    >

    > Eric must be one strong guy or the competition must have not been on that day.

    Are you kidding?
     
  20. "Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Kraig Willett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Lower isn't _always_ necessarily better, though, is it?
    >
    > All other things being the same, lower elbow positions generally reduce frontal area.

    Sounds like we are generally in agreement then. IME, the claim above is difficult to achieve
    practically (much easier with an ergostem - not a lot of people have those, though).

    > In the web site you reference, you moved the elbows out wide so that they were no longer within
    > the profile of the torso. Thus, all other things
    were
    > not the same and net frontal area was increased by a combination of
    reduced
    > frontal area of the head and torso but increased (exposed) frontal area of the arms. What do you
    > think your results would have been if you had used
    an
    > adjustable stem (as does Wohlberg) to maintain the elbow width while lowering elbow pads?

    I would expect frontal area to qualitatively match the results that a circular cylinder based
    analysis would yield.

    > Of course you may eventually reach a point at which further lowering the elbows does not reduce
    > frontal area because the highest point on the back doesn't change. However, that is SO far away
    > from the point that most cyclists will ever reach that its somewhat of a moot point.

    You are probably right.

    Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of getting low. I do, however, see a lot of people going low _and_
    wide (the second DeCanio link is an example) - and, IME, there is a perception that _low_ is all
    that matters. As you so keenly pointed out, it is _also_ important to monitor width.

    --
    ==================
    Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
    ==================
     
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