Can you make it to the market on a bike?

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

"donquijote1954" who? wrote:
> ...
> You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
> BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVE[L]S TO THE DUTCH
> OR DANISH LEVELS?...

The Danes have almost a 100% tax on new automobiles, high gas taxes, and
(in the cities) very limited and expensive parking. They also have a
beautiful cool spring to fall climate, and winters that can be mostly
handled with proper raingear.

Ride to work even a short distance at a slow pace in much of the U.S.
during summer and you will be soaked in sweat.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

[email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Aug 1, 11:02 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> One thing you can do to encourage more people onto bikes is stop
>> routinely exaggerating the dangers. Why are people going to want to go
>> cycling if it's a "war zone"?
>>
>> What you need to do is tell it like it /actually is/: a relatively safe
>> and remarkably efficient, cheap and healthy way to get about. As
>> opposed to some ridiculous story where folks will run over them for the
>> sake of it, where they need to be civilly disobedient to get their
>> rights, and where there's a war going on. That really sounds like a
>> good reason to start using a bike! (not)
>
> Peter Clinch is absolutely right.
>
> "Donquijote1954" returns time and again, whining loudly about the
> terrible dangers of riding a bicycle. He cries and pleads for a
> complete redesign of the world's infrastructure. Meanwhile, millions
> of us are using this existing world, riding our bikes for
> transportation and recreation, enjoying it immensely, and suffering
> none of the horrors he imagines.
>
> What is it that makes characters like "Donquijote" portray bicycling
> as dangerous? How can they remain so ignorant of the real data
> showing how safe it is? Why do they try so hard to scare people away
> from a beneficial activity they pretend to love?
>
> Since I can't think of a gentler metaphor, pardon me - but
> "Donquijote," you need to grow some balls! Some people are going to
> occasionally honk their horns at you or yell at you, whether you walk,
> ride your bicycle, ride your motorcycle or drive your car. It's true
> whether there are bike lanes or no, whether the road is wide or
> narrow, whether you're on a street or path or bike lane or crosswalk
> or sidewalk.
>
> Don't expect the police to take the role of your Mommy, to hold your
> hand and tell the other guy he's being bad. You've got a right to the
> road. Use it! Don't give any satisfaction to the jerks, and don't
> let them worry you.
>
> And for God's sake, stop whining!

HOT DOG! WE HAVE ANOTHER WEINER!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Pat WHO? wrote:
> ...The $18 Harry
> Potter book I bought last week has different words in it than $32
> version in your corner bookstore?...

Actually, it might well have. The U.S. published versions have some of
the British English spellings and words changed to American English
equivalents. The corner bookstore may carry or would special order the
unbastardized Commonwealth version - good luck with that at Wal-Mart.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

William who? wrote:
> ...Just keep that bull **** out of the city.

These people would likely have some if you really need it:
<http://www.absglobal.com/>.

[indefinite pronouns intentional]

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful



--
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[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

[email protected] aka Joshua Putnam wrote:
> ...
> Even the limited-access freeway near me has its shoulder open to
> bicycles -- bikes are allowed on many miles of Interstates, boring and
> noisy, but safe and direct....

Do the drivers look for cyclists crossing their path when merging and
exiting?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful


--
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[[email protected]]

On Aug 1, 9:33 pm, [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> William <[email protected]> writes:
> > On Aug 1, 7:44 pm, [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> > > Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > > I live in a town that sweeps its bike lanes and has both before and
> > > after 2001. If you aren't going to maintain a facility, you probably
> > > shouldn't put it in, but where I live, these things are maintained.
>
> > Your bike paths are swept? How often does someone on a bike A) have
> > trash and B) Drop it on the bike path when you could just drop it
> > in a trash can? And "Bike Path Sweeping" is not considred maintenence.
> > The asphalt or concert can take a little,,,, a whatever gets on it.
> > Not sure what though....
>
> I mentioned bike lanes, which are part of the roads. The bike paths
> (mostly by the bay) are clean as well, but I don't know the schedule,
> only the results.
>
> Road maintainence includes regular sweeping - once per week or so
> around here. The street outside of where I live is completely clean of
> debris. So are the bike lanes and the lanes next to them.

My bet is that fewer than 1% of the bike lanes in the US are swept
weekly.

I just returned from a vacation in a city famous for lots of bike
lanes. On one of my previous trips there, I had a conversation with
one of the bike advocates that helped get them installed. When I
mentioned the debris, he claimed it was no problem - that a wonderful
system was in place to report debris and get almost immediate
sweeping.

Right. Despite that "system," I was definitely dodging broken glass
and other trash when riding in those lanes. As usual, when riding in
the parts of the city without lanes, I had no such trouble.

My town has almost no bike lanes, thank goodness. But I know the
street sweeping schedule. Streets are swept twice per year, if the
budget allows. And I see no prospect of the budget getting much
better. More bike lanes certainly will not have that effect.

Zaumen, like other bike lane advocates, claims to live with ideal bike
lanes: well designed, well maintained, and very beneficial. All I can
say is that there are many, many bike lanes that do not meet the first
two criteria; and even those that do generally seem useless to me.

I won"t go so far as to say all bike lanes are evil. There may be
isolated instances where that magic stripe does some good. But in all
the situations I know, the total width of pavement is what makes the
difference. Things are no better, and usually somewhat worse, if the
extra width is separated by a white stripe.

If bike lane advocates switched to advocating "sharrows," I could
possibly accept more of their ideas.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Bill Zaumen wrote:
> ...
> When you have a really nasty bug to track down as part of your 6-figure
> job, any act of kindness is really appreciated. ...

I hear there are a lot of highly intelligent, computer software and
hardware design capable people in India willing to work for a high four
figure or low five figure (U.S. dollar) annual income.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Pat who? wrote:
> ...If you don't like it, go talk to the lawmakers.

That is not a practical suggestion for those of us who can not afford to
attend $1000/plate fund-raising dinners.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Bill Z.]

[email protected] writes:

> On Aug 1, 9:33 pm, [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> > William <[email protected]> writes:
> > I mentioned bike lanes, which are part of the roads. The bike paths
> > (mostly by the bay) are clean as well, but I don't know the schedule,
> > only the results.
> >
> > Road maintainence includes regular sweeping - once per week or so
> > around here. The street outside of where I live is completely clean of
> > debris. So are the bike lanes and the lanes next to them.
>
> My bet is that fewer than 1% of the bike lanes in the US are swept
> weekly.

Ours our clean of debris - almost: I about a mile along one today
and spotted a solitary leaf that must have fallen since the last
cleaning.

>
> I just returned from a vacation in a city famous for lots of bike
> lanes. On one of my previous trips there, I had a conversation with
> one of the bike advocates that helped get them installed. When I
> mentioned the debris, he claimed it was no problem - that a wonderful
> system was in place to report debris and get almost immediate
> sweeping.
>
> Right. Despite that "system," I was definitely dodging broken glass
> and other trash when riding in those lanes. As usual, when riding in
> the parts of the city without lanes, I had no such trouble.

Typical Krygowski post, and not to be believed - this guy spins
everything he posts. Note the failure to name the city or provide
any other relevant information, nor precisely where in this alleged
city he rode.


> My town has almost no bike lanes, thank goodness. But I know the
> street sweeping schedule. Streets are swept twice per year, if the
> budget allows. And I see no prospect of the budget getting much
> better. More bike lanes certainly will not have that effect.

Move somewhere else.


>
> Zaumen, like other bike lane advocates, claims to live with ideal bike
> lanes: well designed, well maintained, and very beneficial. All I can
> say is that there are many, many bike lanes that do not meet the first
> two criteria; and even those that do generally seem useless to me.

More lies from Krygowski (his speciality) - I don't go around asking
for bike lanes (which is what a bike-lane advocate does).

> If bike lane advocates switched to advocating "sharrows," I could
> possibly accept more of their ideas.

Nobody I know (nor I) have any objections to sharrows, but you can't
put them on just any street - there are some Caltrans rules about
what sort of street they can go on.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Bill Z.]

"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <[email protected]> writes:

> Bill Zaumen wrote:
> > Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >> Bill Zaumen wrote:
> >>> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman writes:
> >>>
> >>>> Bill Zaumen wrote:
> >>>>> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman writes:
> >>>>>> Bill Zaumen wrote:
> >>>>>>> ...
> > <References to the California DMV driver handbook snipped>
> >>> The California DMV includes bicycle-related questions on all written
> >>> tests, so you better know the material.
> >> Dude,
> >>
> >> You may not believe this, but not everyone lives in California.
> >>
> >> Where I live, it is theoretically possible to not have to take the
> >> written driving test for more than half a century.
> > Then you should follow our example and get your laws and regulations
> > changed so you can join the 21st century. Seriously though, if
> > you want to talk about bike lanes, it kind of makes sense to talk
> > about how they work when things are sort of done right. Otherwise
> > you are simply complaining about inept government....
>
> "Bicycle lanes" are not "doing things right".

You'd look a bit less dishonest if you replied to what I actually said
instead of making things up. The phrase "sort of done right" obviously
meant that you should base an evaluation on bike lanes that conform to
current design standards, and not select ones that simply ignored those
standards. That is not the same as "doing things right" in general.

<snip>


--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Bill Z.]

"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <[email protected]> writes:

> Bill Zaumen wrote:
> > ...
> > When you have a really nasty bug to track down as part of your 6-figure
> > job, any act of kindness is really appreciated. ...
>
> I hear there are a lot of highly intelligent, computer software and
> hardware design capable people in India willing to work for a high
> four figure or low five figure (U.S. dollar) annual income.

There are some things you can't outsource to India. Working on an OS
is one of them, particularly when new hardware is involved (and India
is mostly doing software, not hardware). Some of the hardware design
done in Silicon Valley requires a huge capital investment in server
farms for chip verification. That is not available in India or China
right now, which may be why we have so many people from India or
China living here and getting U.S.-level salaries.




--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Peter Clinch]

donquijote1954 wrote:

> WHATEVER GETS PEOPLE OUT IS GOOD, then we polish it up along the way.

But it doesn't actually do that much in getting people out. Milton
Keyenes and Stevenage were designed from the ground up with segregated
cycle lanes. Are they a cycling Mecca compared to other towns in that
part of England? Doesn't appear to be the case, and those cyclists who
do use them aren't any better off than those on the roads in terms of
safety, but they do take longer to get where they're going.

And even if they do go out, and find it's not all magic like they
thought it would be, they'll go back in again.

So, you may well find that, like NL and Germany, you've spent one hell
of a lot of money on new infrastructure but not actually generated much
(if any) extra cycling. Real life lessons that run counter to your pet
theories hurt, I know (been there myself often enough), but ultimately
it's better if you actually learn from them rather than assume your pet
theory will magically become right if you just repeat it often/loud enough.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

donquijote1954 wrote:

> Letting bikes loose out on the roads can be dangerous. Better channel
> them through bike lanes.

Bike lanes don't have a better safety track record than the roads.

Go to http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/infrastructure.html and actually do
some reading around the subject.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

donquijote1954 wrote:

> OK, your strategy doesn't motivate anyone because people are no
> fools. They know cars fly by too close for comfort.

Not if you're properly positioned, as per the advice in UK National
Standard Training or the "Cyclecraft" manual. How do I know? Because
I'm out there on busy thoroughfares and they don't fly by me too close
for comfort.
Which I can (and do) point out to people who say I'm a marvel because
"it's so dangerous out there!". I also point out it's not nearly as
dangerous as they think. In fact, compared to pedestrians on their
"safe" segregated sidewalks, cyclists get slightly fewer serious
injuries per unit distance. Counter intuitive, but true.

> That's why there's
> no significant number of people riding bikes on busy thoroughfares. It
> just doesn't make sense to push people onto roads and then having to
> say, "Sorry, **** happens."

Though it's perfectly all right to shove them onto a lane or track which
doesn't have any better safety record, and if they get mown down at a
junction (which is where most accidents happen, not getting hit from
behind on normal road) saying "Sorry, **** happens"?

When are you going to account for reality being the bottom line and not
your personal hopes for what it /should/ be?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Ace]

On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 08:14:13 +0100, Peter Clinch
<[email protected]> wrote:

>donquijote1954 wrote:
>
>> Letting bikes loose out on the roads can be dangerous. Better channel
>> them through bike lanes.
>
>Bike lanes don't have a better safety track record than the roads.
>
>Go to http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/infrastructure.html and actually do
>some reading around the subject.

Alternatively, you could just stop feeding the troll. It's fairly
clear that he's not listening, and I doubt that anyone will seriously
take any notice of him, as he's such an obvious monomaniac.


--
Ace in Alsace - brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom

 

[Peter Clinch]

Ace wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 08:14:13 +0100, Peter Clinch
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> donquijote1954 wrote:
>>
>>> Letting bikes loose out on the roads can be dangerous. Better channel
>>> them through bike lanes.
>> Bike lanes don't have a better safety track record than the roads.
>>
>> Go to http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/infrastructure.html and actually do
>> some reading around the subject.
>
> Alternatively, you could just stop feeding the troll. It's fairly
> clear that he's not listening, and I doubt that anyone will seriously
> take any notice of him, as he's such an obvious monomaniac.

Fair point...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Tony Raven]

Ace wrote:
>
> Alternatively, you could just stop feeding the troll. It's fairly
> clear that he's not listening, and I doubt that anyone will seriously
> take any notice of him, as he's such an obvious monomaniac.
>

Its also fairly obvious he won't be around for long before he gets
killed by one of the many thousands of cyclicidal SUV drivers in his
neighbourhood ;-)

Tony

 

[Ace]

On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 10:08:26 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Ace wrote:
>>
>> Alternatively, you could just stop feeding the troll. It's fairly
>> clear that he's not listening, and I doubt that anyone will seriously
>> take any notice of him, as he's such an obvious monomaniac.
>>
>
>Its also fairly obvious he won't be around for long before he gets
>killed by one of the many thousands of cyclicidal SUV drivers in his
>neighbourhood ;-)

That'd be a shame.

--
Ace in Alsace - brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom

 

[Mike Clark]

In message <[email protected]>
donquijote1954 <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Aug 1, 1:13 pm, Mike Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
[snip]
> > In contrast to the 'idea' of ever more separate lanes being good for
> > improved safety there is the contradictory data that shows that in
> > places where you remove all the lane markings, signs and junction
> > priorities you often get a measurable increase in safety.
>
> Should we erase the car lanes too? I think we could have bike lanes
> and still enforce those breaking the law, so they can pay for more
> bike lanes. Are you parked in the bike lane? You got a fine for 100
> bucks...
>

Yes the data is based on situations where all the lane markings and
junction priorities, traffic lights etc are removed. Basically people
stop driving as if they have a known priority and instead start looking
out for and avoiding other road users.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

 

[Tony Raven]

Ace wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 10:08:26 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Ace wrote:
>>> Alternatively, you could just stop feeding the troll. It's fairly
>>> clear that he's not listening, and I doubt that anyone will seriously
>>> take any notice of him, as he's such an obvious monomaniac.
>>>
>> Its also fairly obvious he won't be around for long before he gets
>> killed by one of the many thousands of cyclicidal SUV drivers in his
>> neighbourhood ;-)
>
> That'd be a shame.
>

Or an exaggeration.

Tony