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Car Accident

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Australia and New Zealand
Published
14 September 2003
Last activity
19 September 2003
Original author
MN
Posts
95
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  1. : ** NO it is NOT.
    :
    : Your stats show is the present situation with cyclists - fine.
    :
    : The assertion that the figures prove the activity is as safe as car
    : travel is WRONG.
    :

    Where did I make this assertion? I only just joined in because the school
    yard argument is not going to sway me one way or another. I have not said
    anywhere that it is as safe or even twice as dangerous as driving.

    I choose to do it because it keeps me fit and yes I have had close calls as
    I do over 250km's a week on urban/sub roads. I have been doing this for
    some 20 years now. I have also been taken out several times but never had a
    serious accident. (BTW this last paragraph is in no way indicating that I
    believe that because I have not had a serious accident then it must be
    safe).

    Pete

  2. John Doe <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Having said all that, this doesn't include hospitalisation from lazy
    [censored], and average life expectancy of cyclists vs road drivers,
    which (opinion only) would be weighted towards the cyclist ;-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Even thats a rather dubious claim. You dont necessarily
    get that effect with joggers and non joggers for example.

    Quoted message said:

    "A cohort study of Harvard college alumni shows clearly
    the reduction in the number of deaths due to heart attack
    in men expending more than 2000 kilocalories of energy
    each week in identified physical activity
    (Paffenbarger and Hyde 1984)."

    Pity that is just ONE study on that question and that others
    have come to difference conclusions on that question.

    And that one has been extensively studied over a long time now.

    Quoted message said:

    For anyone interested with some real evidence instead of the "liar
    liar pants on fire" type of uneducated argument then here is just a
    small excerpt from a study at Adelaide University. It is quite a long
    read to get through the whole thing as these studies tend to have
    to be. Its primary purpose was to discover the pros and cons
    from using cycling as a mode of transport on health benefits.

    And thats a mindlessly superficial comment on the
    general question of exercise and health benefits.

    Quoted message said:

    The reason I went looking was because I heard the
    results of a study about 6 months ago that indicated
    the average lifespan of a cyclist was 10 years longer.

    Pity there are plenty that show nothing like that.

    Quoted message said:

    I wish I had only written down the reference.
    I will know better for next time.

    If it did appear in a proper peer reviewed scientific
    journal, it would be easy enough to find. Bet it didnt.

    Quoted message said:

    However, I could not find in this study this sort of metric. On the
    other hand it makes no mistake that it does make a difference.

    What matters is how much of a difference it makes,
    particularly when that particular activity involves a higher
    risk of other medical problems like being run over etc.

    Thats always been the problem with team sports for example.
    They certainly do have some health benefits BUT they also
    have some serious health downsides in other areas as well.

    Quoted message said:

    If anyone is interested in scientific study then you can find the full study here.
    sciweb.science.adelaide.edu.au$about

    Quoted message said:

    "Cycling is widely perceived to be an unsafe activity

    Depends on where you do it. Its quite safe on dedicated bikeways etc.

    Quoted message said:

    but very few people consider the consequences
    of their sedentary lifestyle on health.

    Thats mindlessly superficial too when say energetic walking is one
    obvious alternative to bike commuting and a hell of a lot safer too.

    Quoted message said:

    The risk of injury requiring hospital treatment as
    a result of cycling is around 0.005 per 100 hours;
    this compares with 0.19 for football, 0.13 for squash,
    0.11 for basketball and netball and 0.06 for soccer."

    Pity he ignores the obvious alternatives like walking.

    Utterly bogus.

    Quoted message said:

    One of their other stats distinguished
    between arterial vs. non arterial road.

    Should also include dedicated bikeways.

    Quoted message said:

    Looking at my age group (18+ actually a hell of a lot
    more on the + side :-) ) Then it increases to 0.015 accidents
    (does not distinguish whether they need hospital treatment).

    Then its stupidly superficial.

    Quoted message said:

    Now am I going to stop my sons playing soccer or football.
    Not likely because its fun and I believe overall it is good for them.

    Completely irrelevant to what was being discussed,
    whether there is a substantial increased risk of significant
    injury with bike commuting over commuting by car.

  3. Dedicated bikeways (in Brisbane/Logan) or at least paths that have been
    built for cycling by local councils (eg. Logan City) are often occupied by
    pedestrians, are often narrow at points, especially corners, and are not
    often built as straight as roads for equal distances, and don't usually have
    good lighting (for night riding). For these reasons it is not usually safe
    to travel by bicycle on these paths at speeds equal to that safely
    attainable by bicycle on roads.

    "Rod Speed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    John Doe <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Having said all that, this doesn't include hospitalisation from lazy
    > [censored], and average life expectancy of cyclists vs road drivers,
    > which (opinion only) would be weighted towards the cyclist ;-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Even thats a rather dubious claim. You dont necessarily
    get that effect with joggers and non joggers for example.

    Quoted message said:

    "A cohort study of Harvard college alumni shows clearly
    the reduction in the number of deaths due to heart attack
    in men expending more than 2000 kilocalories of energy
    each week in identified physical activity
    (Paffenbarger and Hyde 1984)."

    Pity that is just ONE study on that question and that others
    have come to difference conclusions on that question.

    And that one has been extensively studied over a long time now.

    Quoted message said:

    For anyone interested with some real evidence instead of the "liar
    liar pants on fire" type of uneducated argument then here is just a
    small excerpt from a study at Adelaide University. It is quite a long
    read to get through the whole thing as these studies tend to have
    to be. Its primary purpose was to discover the pros and cons
    from using cycling as a mode of transport on health benefits.

    And thats a mindlessly superficial comment on the
    general question of exercise and health benefits.

    Quoted message said:

    The reason I went looking was because I heard the
    results of a study about 6 months ago that indicated
    the average lifespan of a cyclist was 10 years longer.

    Pity there are plenty that show nothing like that.

    Quoted message said:

    I wish I had only written down the reference.
    I will know better for next time.

    If it did appear in a proper peer reviewed scientific
    journal, it would be easy enough to find. Bet it didnt.

    Quoted message said:

    However, I could not find in this study this sort of metric. On the
    other hand it makes no mistake that it does make a difference.

    What matters is how much of a difference it makes,
    particularly when that particular activity involves a higher
    risk of other medical problems like being run over etc.

    Thats always been the problem with team sports for example.
    They certainly do have some health benefits BUT they also
    have some serious health downsides in other areas as well.

    Quoted message said:

    If anyone is interested in scientific study then you can find the full


    study here.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    sciweb.science.adelaide.edu.au$about

    Quoted message said:

    "Cycling is widely perceived to be an unsafe activity

    Depends on where you do it. Its quite safe on dedicated bikeways etc.

    Quoted message said:

    but very few people consider the consequences
    of their sedentary lifestyle on health.

    Thats mindlessly superficial too when say energetic walking is one
    obvious alternative to bike commuting and a hell of a lot safer too.

    Quoted message said:

    The risk of injury requiring hospital treatment as
    a result of cycling is around 0.005 per 100 hours;
    this compares with 0.19 for football, 0.13 for squash,
    0.11 for basketball and netball and 0.06 for soccer."

    Pity he ignores the obvious alternatives like walking.

    Utterly bogus.

    Quoted message said:

    One of their other stats distinguished
    between arterial vs. non arterial road.

    Should also include dedicated bikeways.

    Quoted message said:

    Looking at my age group (18+ actually a hell of a lot
    more on the + side :-) ) Then it increases to 0.015 accidents
    (does not distinguish whether they need hospital treatment).

    Then its stupidly superficial.

    Quoted message said:

    Now am I going to stop my sons playing soccer or football.
    Not likely because its fun and I believe overall it is good for them.

    Completely irrelevant to what was being discussed,
    whether there is a substantial increased risk of significant
    injury with bike commuting over commuting by car.

  4. : Pity that is just ONE study on that question and that others
    : have come to difference conclusions on that question.
    :
    : And that one has been extensively studied over a long time now.

    References?

    : Pity there are plenty that show nothing like that.

    References?

    : If it did appear in a proper peer reviewed scientific
    : journal, it would be easy enough to find. Bet it didnt.

    It did and you obviously have not done that much post graduate research to
    say that it would be easy to find. Do you realise how many PhD's are
    completed each year in the world at respected univeristies which are peer
    reviewed and defended as a matter of course. Not to mention post doctoral
    published works.

    Obviously you are quite learned. Can you tell me the easy way to find
    published reviewed works?

    : What matters is how much of a difference it makes,
    : particularly when that particular activity involves a higher
    : risk of other medical problems like being run over etc.

    References?

    :
    : Thats always been the problem with team sports for example.
    : They certainly do have some health benefits BUT they also
    : have some serious health downsides in other areas as well.

    References?

    : Thats mindlessly superficial too when say energetic walking is one
    : obvious alternative to bike commuting and a hell of a lot safer too.

    Actually according to this study and others walking has been disputed as
    having that much of a benefit except power walking.

    :
    : Pity he ignores the obvious alternatives like walking.
    :
    : Utterly bogus.

    References?

    : > One of their other stats distinguished
    : > between arterial vs. non arterial road.
    :
    : Should also include dedicated bikeways.

    We are talking about roads not bikeways and they were talking about roads.

    :
    : > Looking at my age group (18+ actually a hell of a lot
    : > more on the + side :-) ) Then it increases to 0.015 accidents
    : > (does not distinguish whether they need hospital treatment).
    :
    : Then its stupidly superficial.

    Well actually it sways more for your argument.
    :
    : Completely irrelevant to what was being discussed,
    : whether there is a substantial increased risk of significant
    : injury with bike commuting over commuting by car.

    You are always going to be right. Do you actually have any qualifications
    at all or do you sit in some room somewhere with the blinds shut all day.

  5. : If it did appear in a proper peer reviewed scientific
    : journal, it would be easy enough to find.

    Not really that easy to find unlike your reputation.

  6. Laurence Dodd <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Dedicated bikeways (in Brisbane/Logan) or at least
    paths that have been built for cycling by local councils
    (eg. Logan City) are often occupied by pedestrians,

    Yes, but anyone with a clue can
    avoid having an accident with those.

    Quoted message said:

    are often narrow at points, especially corners,

    Anyone with a clue can avoid having an accident at those.

    Quoted message said:

    and are not often built as straight as roads for equal distances,

    Anyone with a clue can avoid having an accident
    when the bikeway isnt straight for long distances.

    Quoted message said:

    and don't usually have good lighting (for night riding).

    So dont use them at night, stupid.

    Quoted message said:

    For these reasons it is not usually safe to travel
    by bicycle on these paths at speeds equal to
    that safely attainable by bicycle on roads.

    Who said anything about travelling at the same speed ?

    What was being discussed was how to do cycling
    for its health benefits without significantly increasing
    the risk to your health by doing it on normal roads with
    significant amounts of other traffic on those roads
    and risking the inevitable stupidity by someone else.

    The most you are likely to risk when using a dedicated
    bikeway is someone's dog decides to have a go a you.
    And if you've got any sense you dont ride close enough
    to the larger dogs so that they are any real risk at all.

    Quoted message said:

    "Rod Speed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    John Doe <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    >> Having said all that, this doesn't include hospitalisation from lazy
    >> [censored], and average life expectancy of cyclists vs road drivers,
    >> which (opinion only) would be weighted towards the cyclist ;-)

    Quoted message said:

    > Even thats a rather dubious claim. You dont necessarily
    > get that effect with joggers and non joggers for example.

    Quoted message said:

    "A cohort study of Harvard college alumni shows clearly
    the reduction in the number of deaths due to heart attack
    in men expending more than 2000 kilocalories of energy
    each week in identified physical activity
    (Paffenbarger and Hyde 1984)."

    Pity that is just ONE study on that question and that others
    have come to difference conclusions on that question.

    And that one has been extensively studied over a long time now.

    Quoted message said:

    For anyone interested with some real evidence instead of the "liar
    liar pants on fire" type of uneducated argument then here is just a
    small excerpt from a study at Adelaide University. It is quite a long
    read to get through the whole thing as these studies tend to have
    to be. Its primary purpose was to discover the pros and cons
    from using cycling as a mode of transport on health benefits.

    And thats a mindlessly superficial comment on the
    general question of exercise and health benefits.

    Quoted message said:

    The reason I went looking was because I heard the
    results of a study about 6 months ago that indicated
    the average lifespan of a cyclist was 10 years longer.

    Pity there are plenty that show nothing like that.

    Quoted message said:

    I wish I had only written down the reference.
    I will know better for next time.

    If it did appear in a proper peer reviewed scientific
    journal, it would be easy enough to find. Bet it didnt.

    Quoted message said:

    However, I could not find in this study this sort of metric. On the
    other hand it makes no mistake that it does make a difference.

    What matters is how much of a difference it makes,
    particularly when that particular activity involves a higher
    risk of other medical problems like being run over etc.

    Thats always been the problem with team sports for example.
    They certainly do have some health benefits BUT they also
    have some serious health downsides in other areas as well.

    Quoted message said:

    If anyone is interested in scientific study then you can find the full


    study here.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    sciweb.science.adelaide.edu.au$about

    Quoted message said:

    "Cycling is widely perceived to be an unsafe activity

    Depends on where you do it. Its quite safe on dedicated bikeways etc.

    Quoted message said:

    but very few people consider the consequences
    of their sedentary lifestyle on health.

    Thats mindlessly superficial too when say energetic walking is one
    obvious alternative to bike commuting and a hell of a lot safer too.

    Quoted message said:

    The risk of injury requiring hospital treatment as
    a result of cycling is around 0.005 per 100 hours;
    this compares with 0.19 for football, 0.13 for squash,
    0.11 for basketball and netball and 0.06 for soccer."

    Pity he ignores the obvious alternatives like walking.

    Utterly bogus.

    Quoted message said:

    One of their other stats distinguished
    between arterial vs. non arterial road.

    Should also include dedicated bikeways.

    Quoted message said:

    Looking at my age group (18+ actually a hell of a lot
    more on the + side :-) ) Then it increases to 0.015 accidents
    (does not distinguish whether they need hospital treatment).

    Then its stupidly superficial.

    Quoted message said:

    Now am I going to stop my sons playing soccer or football.
    Not likely because its fun and I believe overall it is good for them.

    Completely irrelevant to what was being discussed,
    whether there is a substantial increased risk of significant
    injury with bike commuting over commuting by car.

  7. John Doe <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "A cohort study of Harvard college alumni shows clearly
    the reduction in the number of deaths due to heart attack
    in men expending more than 2000 kilocalories of energy
    each week in identified physical activity
    (Paffenbarger and Hyde 1984)."

    Quoted message said:

    : Pity that is just ONE study on that question and that others
    : have come to difference conclusions on that question.

    Quoted message said:

    : And that one has been extensively studied over a long time now.

    Quoted message said:

    References?

    Go and find them for yourself.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The reason I went looking was because I heard the
    results of a study about 6 months ago that indicated
    the average lifespan of a cyclist was 10 years longer.

    Quoted message said:

    : Pity there are plenty that show nothing like that.

    Quoted message said:

    References?

    Go and find them for yourself.

    Quoted message said:

    : If it did appear in a proper peer reviewed scientific
    : journal, it would be easy enough to find. Bet it didnt.

    Quoted message said:

    It did

    Easy to claim.

    Quoted message said:

    and you obviously have not done that much post
    graduate research to say that it would be easy to find.

    Guess which silly prat just got egg all over its silly little face.

    Quoted message said:

    Do you realise how many PhD's are completed each
    year in the world at respected univeristies which are
    peer reviewed and defended as a matter of course.

    Yep. And there might just be a reason why I do.

    Even someone as stupid as you should be able
    to grasp that that doesnt qualify as a PROPER
    PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL, even
    if you are so stupid that you cant manage to grasp
    the difference on the easy of finding with those.

    Quoted message said:

    Not to mention post doctoral published works.

    See above.

    Quoted message said:

    Obviously you are quite learned. Can you tell me
    the easy way to find published reviewed works?

    Never even commented on those,
    you pathetic excuse for a [censored] artist.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    However, I could not find in this study this sort of metric. On the
    other hand it makes no mistake that it does make a difference.

    Quoted message said:

    : What matters is how much of a difference it makes,
    : particularly when that particular activity involves a higher
    : risk of other medical problems like being run over etc.

    Quoted message said:

    References?

    Even a terminal cretin such as yourself should be able
    to work out that there is an increased risk of getting
    run over when cycling on public roads without needing
    any references on something that obvious.

    Quoted message said:

    : Thats always been the problem with team sports for example.
    : They certainly do have some health benefits BUT they also
    : have some serious health downsides in other areas as well.

    Quoted message said:

    References?

    That one you cited says that, [censored].

    Quoted message said:

    : Thats mindlessly superficial too when say energetic walking is one
    : obvious alternative to bike commuting and a hell of a lot safer too.

    Quoted message said:

    Actually according to this study and others walking has been
    disputed as having that much of a benefit except power walking.

    I just used the word energetic instead of power, [censored].

    Quoted message said:

    : Pity he ignores the obvious alternatives like walking.

    Quoted message said:

    : Utterly bogus.

    Quoted message said:

    References?

    Record's stuck, [censored].

    Quoted message said:

    : > One of their other stats distinguished
    : > between arterial vs. non arterial road.

    Quoted message said:

    : Should also include dedicated bikeways.

    Quoted message said:

    We are talking about roads not bikeways

    What that article is discussing is risks with cycling, cretin.

    Quoted message said:

    and they were talking about roads.

    Irrelevant if you have decided that cycling produces
    worthwhile health benefits and are considering ways
    of cycling which dont increase the risk to your health
    from getting run over etc.

    Quoted message said:

    : > Looking at my age group (18+ actually a hell of a lot
    : > more on the + side :-) ) Then it increases to 0.015 accidents
    : > (does not distinguish whether they need hospital treatment).

    Quoted message said:

    : Then its stupidly superficial.

    Quoted message said:

    Well actually it sways more for your argument.

    Doesnt alter the fact that its stupidly superficial.

    An accident that doesnt require hospital treatment and
    just requires say repair of the bike isnt relevant to the
    question being considered, health benefits of cycling.

    Quoted message said:

    : Completely irrelevant to what was being discussed,
    : whether there is a substantial increased risk of significant
    : injury with bike commuting over commuting by car.

    Quoted message said:

    You are always going to be right. Do you actually have any qualifications
    at all or do you sit in some room somewhere with the blinds shut all day.

    Even you should be able to [censored] your way out of
    your predicament better that that pathetic effort, [censored].

    Try again.

  8. I long ago vowed never to respond to a Rod Speed post, but allow
    me just one indiscretion ... and just one rebuttal to illustrate
    how idiotic he is:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you car-commute, are otherwise sedentary
    (ie most office workers), and you're also overweight
    and over 40, then this risk is simply HUGE.

    Wrong. As always.

    Well, no, it isn't. You can find cardiovascular risk statistics
    all over the Web. The average annual risk of death from heart
    attack for a 45 year old male is about 0.25%. On AM's figures,
    the average annual risk of road trauma death from an hour a
    day of cycle commuting, 200 working days per year, is 0.008%.

  9. Glen F <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you car-commute, are otherwise sedentary
    (ie most office workers), and you're also overweight
    and over 40, then this risk is simply HUGE.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Wrong. As always.

    Quoted message said:

    Well, no, it isn't.

    Fraid so. The risk is certainly significant, but
    you're wildly exaggerating with that HUGE claim.

    Quoted message said:

    You can find cardiovascular risk statistics all over the Web.

    You wont find one from a reputable scientific
    source that says anything like that HUGE claim.

    Quoted message said:

    The average annual risk of death from heart
    attack for a 45 year old male is about 0.25%.

    Says nothing about that HUGE claim.

    Quoted message said:

    On AM's figures, the average annual risk of
    road trauma death from an hour a day of cycle
    commuting, 200 working days per year, is 0.008%.

    Thanks for that completely superfluous
    proof that you've never ever had a clue
    about even the most basic statistics.

  10. : I long ago vowed never to respond to a Rod Speed post, but allow
    : me just one indiscretion ... and just one rebuttal to illustrate
    : how idiotic he is:
    :

    I can't believe I got into an argument with him. What a waste of typing.
    As soon as I did the google search I got my wife to clip me over the back of
    the head for being stupid.

    Pete

  11. "Peter Signorini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Phil Allison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Cycling in traffic is extremely dangerous - often reckless.

    Only fools do it and even bigger ones like you downplay the


    risk.

    Quoted message said:


    Maybe you should get out more often.....on the road......on a bike.

    ** It that a death threat ??

    Quoted message said:

    I could write a (small) book about the methods and strategies to cycle
    safely in traffic,

    ** So you admit is it inherently suicidal.

    Quoted message said:

    Generally many of the safest strategies to cycle in traffic and survive


    tend

    Quoted message said:

    to be counter to what the crash-wary, metal-bound motorist thinks is


    safest

    Quoted message said:

    at first glance.

    ** "..... cycle in traffic and survive " ???????

    Says it all really.

    ............... Phil

  12. : Try again.
    :

    No need. I have done the google search.

  13. "Peter Signorini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Phil Allison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    ** What is the reason there as so few head in lion's mouth deaths


    ???

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Answer - because people can see how high the risk is for them


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    avoid it.

    Quoted message said:


    Well by your definition ...

    ** I never gave any definition - you are seeing things.

    .......... Phil

  14. Some gutless [censored] desperately cowering behind
    John Doe <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    just the puerile silly [censored] thats all it can ever manage.

    Try harder, child. You might actually manage to fool someone, sometime.

  15. Some gutless [censored] desperately cowering behind
    John Doe <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    just the puerile silly [censored] thats all it can ever manage.

    Try harder, child. You might actually manage to fool someone, sometime.

  16. "Rod Speed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    : Some gutless [censored] desperately cowering behind
    : John Doe

    come on... A genious like you should be able to work out my real name.

    : just the puerile silly [censored] thats all it can ever manage.
    :
    : Try harder, child. You might actually manage to fool someone, sometime.
    :
    :
    I had a read of some of your stuff. Its pure gold. You are really funny.
    Man you can upset some people. I can't believe people try and have you
    banned.

  17. Some gutless [censored] desperately cowering behind
    John Doe <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    just the puerile silly [censored] thats all it can ever manage.

    Try harder, child. You might actually manage to fool someone, sometime.

  18. : Thats not enjoyment...
    :

    presumptuous.

  19. "Peter Signorini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Phil Allison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Peter Signorini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Phil Allison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    > ** What is the reason there as so few head in lion's mouth


    deaths

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    ???

    Quoted message said:

    >
    > Answer - because people can see how high the risk is for


    them

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and

    Quoted message said:

    > avoid it.

    Quoted message said:


    Well by your definition ...

    ** I never gave any definition - you are seeing things.

    Quoted message said:

    Well *sheesh*! Playing with the pet ants today!

    Quoted message said:

    Try this then.

    ** Not being a dog I do not lick whatever is placed in front of me.

    Quoted message said:

    Following your description of a dangerous activity,

    ** There was no such descripton.

    Quoted message said:

    there are plenty of people "putting there heads in the lion's mouth" in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    Netherlands, France, Germany and other European countries (especially in


    the large cities) where cycling use is very much higher than here in Aus.

    ** Huh, so cyclists in Europe are also prone to attempting lion tamer
    stunts ??

    Is this just to prove what [censored] they are ?

    Quoted message said:

    So the cyclist accident and death rates should be very much higher in


    these countries?

    ** Hypothetical statistics are like hypothetical data - only used by
    the most desperate to prove an absolute lie.

    ............. Phil

  20. John Doe <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Thats not enjoyment...

    Quoted message said:

    presumptuous.

    pathetic.

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