carb. consumer seeks advice

I know that. I thought I could get some advice here.
What is the point of having the newsgroup if people can't use it for
advice?

I have been looking around. But regardless of which way of eating one
picks, there's an argument on the other side. I just want to know about
some bodily actions that may be taking place with certain foods. I am
not asking for anyone's advice on any particular diet to follow.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Refined and high-GI carbs eaten in the absence of dietary fat is what
makes you fat.

What do, chocolate, donuts, french fries, mac and cheese, potato chips,
ice cream, and potato with butter, all have in common? High carb mixed with
high fat. It's the worst combination. Did you get mixed up, instead of
saying protein and fat is ok? Or were you just being funny, and I missed the
joke?

Quoted message said:

TC

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Refined and high-GI carbs eaten in the absence of dietary fat is what
makes you fat.

What do, chocolate, donuts, french fries, mac and cheese, potato chips,
ice cream, and potato with butter, all have in common? High carb mixed with
high fat. It's the worst combination. Did you get mixed up, instead of
saying protein and fat is ok? Or were you just being funny, and I missed the
joke?

Quoted message said:

TC

This is a response I can respect. It obviously comes from a thinking
and responsible person.

I've never said: "Believe me!"

I recommend that you run like hell from the people who are coming off
here with a [censored]-sure, "I'm right" attitude. They are dangerous and do
not have your best interest at heart.

All I've ever asked is: Check it out for yourself and decide if it's
right for you. I have no vested interest in Natural Hygiene. It is
simply the best way of life I've ever found.

BTW: I live a modified version of Natural Hygiene. I do not live
exactly according to the principles as laid down in the books. I don't
believe anyone does. We all do what we can, as much as we can at any
given time.

To your health,
VP

"Reba" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had hoped that since this news group is called
"sci.med.nutrition" that someone who really understood how this all
works could help me with it by explaining it without being married to
some particular diet that they embrace and criticizing my choice 'not'
to eat meat or 'to' eat dairy without hanging everything on that
fact(s) alone.

You also posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb

Visual Purple wrote

Quoted message said:

You're storing fat in your body as a way of insulating your internal
organs from the toxins being produced by incorrect food combining.

gee, and all this time I thought it was because I was eating too much. Thanks so much for clearing
that up.
--
RoT

Reba said:

So then why does pizza & maccaronie & cheese make you fat? They both
have cheese and I also add a little butter in my maccarroni & cheese.

Too many carbs overall. Adding fat will help, but it isn't a panacea.
It won't do enough to mitigate overly huge amounts of refined grains.
Reduce the amounts of pasta and white flour and keep the fat. And BTW,
there is no nutrition in refined grain products like white pasta and
bread. Any nutrition that the grain contained has been removed thru
processing.

Quoted message said:

And YOu're saying that a baked potatoes with sour cream and butter
actually ends up less fattening than a plain baked potatoe with nothing
on it??

Yep. Fat storage is triggered by hormones. Insulin in particular. Which
is triggered by high blood glucose. Dietary fat will help attenuate the
blood glucose spike somewhat. Again, it won't completely stop it, but
it will help keep the blood glucose spike down a bit.

Refined and starchy carb foods without added fats will be more
fattening than the same food with the fat added. But too many refined
and starchy carbs will still make you fat, and malnourished. Best to
just cut the carbs to begin with.

Have you heard of the French and/or the Mediteranian Paradoxes? They
eat a lot of real fatty foods and are less fat and healthier than
Americans. They eat less refined carbs and way more dietary fat. They
have much less diabetes and heart disease. It is only a paradox if you
believe the nonsense about dietary fat making you fat and that animal
fats are unhealthy. And the Europeans are starting to catch up to the
Americans because their kids are starting to eat as much sugary and
carby [censored] as americans. RTE cereals (grain starch), half gallon jugs
of soda (high fructose corn syrup), white pasta (grain starch), pizza
and their thick crusts (grain starch), McFries (potatoes), etc.

The problem ain't in the dietary fat.

TC

I know from personal experience, that adding globs of sour cream &
butter to a baked potatoe will put more pounds on you than if you have
the potatoe alone, or with a very very small amount of either or with a
little low fat cottage cheese.

TC's advice on that at least, is nonsense.

[email hidden] wrote:
:: Reba wrote:
::: I heard that one reason carbs make you put on extra fat is that
::: apart from being converted to sugar they are so easy to digest.
::
:: Refined carbs and starchy foods digest quickly and cause a quick
:: blood glucose spike which causes a quick insulin spike which
:: triggers your body to store fat.
::
:::
::: If you combined eating carbs with high protein foods (not meat)
::: and/or high fibre foods, would this help to curb their tendency to
::: cause you to put on weight from eating carb meals like macaroni &
::: cheese, pizza, etc.? Do eating certain foods in combinations help?
:::
::: Thank you,
:::
::: Reba
::: (PS - please don't advise me to eat meat. I'm a vegetarian)
::
:: The Irish know how to get the best from potatoes. They steam them
:: with the skin. This keeps the nutrients from being drained into a
:: lot of water, as when you boil them, and the skins hold a lot of
:: nutrients. And once the potatoes are cooked, they are mashed with a
:: lot of fresh butter, cream, and/or milk. The fat in the dairy slows
:: down the digestion and add to the satiation factor of the meal as a
:: whole. Less blood glucose spike and your feel full longer.
::
:: Potatoes eaten without added fat will spike the the blood glucose
:: more than potatoes with fat added. Fat in a meal diminishes its
:: overall glyceamic index value.
::
:: I make a point of adding copious amounts of fat, whether thru milk,
:: cream, butter, lard, tallow, or olive oil, to all my food, (ala
:: french or mediterranian cuisine). It tastes great and contrary to
:: popular belief, it does not make you fat.
::
:: Refined and high-GI carbs eaten in the absence of dietary fat is what
:: makes you fat.

Good grief, man. Your typical SAD is full of refined, high GI carsb and
dietary fat and that why people get fat.

High carb and high fat = fat on your ass.

Have you forgotten this already? Do you seriously think adding copious
amounts of fat to any food will make it not fattening?

Are you one of those here to like to smoke up the doobies?

Hmm...maybe it's time for me to move on....

Tom G wrote:
:: <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
:::
::: Refined and high-GI carbs eaten in the absence of dietary fat is
::: what makes you fat.
::
:: What do, chocolate, donuts, french fries, mac and cheese, potato
:: chips, ice cream, and potato with butter, all have in common? High
:: carb mixed with high fat. It's the worst combination. Did you get
:: mixed up, instead of saying protein and fat is ok? Or were you just
:: being funny, and I missed the joke?

Okay, so I'm not in an alternative universe. TC did say he adds fat to all
of HIS food, and I assume he eats a LC diet. Fat does tend to slow down the
spike....but fat and carbs will raise insulin levenls and will promote fat
storage. However, if you manage to not overeat, you can avoid getting fat.
But most on us who are IR will end up eating more, as evidence proves, and
will end up adding pounds.

HC and HF is dangerous!

Visual Purple wrote:
:: Reba wrote:
::: I heard that one reason carbs make you put on extra fat is that
::: apart from being converted to sugar they are so easy to digest.
:::
::: If you combined eating carbs with high protein foods (not meat)
::: and/or high fibre foods, would this help to curb their tendency to
::: cause you to put on weight from eating carb meals like macaroni &
::: cheese, pizza, etc.? Do eating certain foods in combinations help?
:::
::: Thank you,
:::
::: Reba
::: (PS - please don't advise me to eat meat. I'm a vegetarian)
::
:: Reba, hi.
::
:: Please look at the principles of proper food combining as described
:: in the school of nutrition and healthy lifestyle known as Natural
:: Hygiene.
::
:: Carbs and proteins should never be eaten together

What if you're trying to grow muscle?

- certainly not
:: refined carbs and high-fat animal protein as in the cases of pizza
:: and mac and cheese.

That would be carbs and fat, mostly. Animal protein isn't fat. Meat is
typically high in fat. If you had said high-fat meat then you'd be closer to
correct.

::
:: You're storing fat in your body as a way of insulating your internal
:: organs from the toxins being produced by incorrect food combining.
::
:: It is all explained very clearly in Harvey and Marilyn Diamond's book
:: Fit for Life.
::
:: To your health,
:: VP

Ann said:

I know from personal experience, that adding globs of sour cream &
butter to a baked potatoe will put more pounds on you than if you have
the potatoe alone, or with a very very small amount of either or with a
little low fat cottage cheese.

TC's advice on that at least, is nonsense.

How do you know that it was the sour cream and not the potato? You
don't. It could just as easily been the potato chips and the soda you
had the night before. Or the pie and ice cream you had for dessert.

Calories mean squat. Dietary fat means squat. If calories or fat meant
anything, everyone, virtually without exception, who went on a
low-calorie low-fat diet would succeed every time and they would all be
thin. 98% or more who do low-fat low-calorie dieting fails.

Virtually everyone who tries to diet by low-fat and low-calorie fails.
That means that calories and fat means squat.

BUT... if you restrict carbs, you will easily (well easier than low
fat) succeed in virtually every case, at least 98%.

For anyone with statistical training, you will realize that that covers
everyone under the bell curve up to about the third standard deviation.
Which means that past statistics clearly have shown that
low-fat/low-calorie is completely wrong, mathematically speaking. It
simply does not work.

I've challenged those in sci.med.nutrition to explain the specific
bio-chemical process that determines and monitors calories ingested and
the subsequent process that supposedly triggers fat storage or fat use
from that information, and no one can explain how it supposedly works.
It is a modern medical fallacy. The body cannot measure or detect or
respond to excess calorie consumption directly.

The body is triggered to either store or use fat by the
insulin/glucagon hormone balance process. The insulin/glucagon balance
responds to the blood glucose levels. When blood glucose levels go up,
insulin is produced, it triggers the bodies cells to convert the
glucose into fat and store it. Conversely, when the blood glucose
levels are within normal ranges, the body is not triggered to store
fat. Blood glucose levels are thrown out of whack by consuming large
amounts of carbohydrates, specifically the refined and starchy carbs.

Thus a potato with lots of cream or butter will be digested slower and
will affect the bgl less than a plain potato which will be absorbed
faster and will cause a more pronounced insulin spike. The more
pronounced insulin spike will cause the body to store fat quicker and
longer.

Low fat milk is a waste of time. Low fat foods is working against
weight loss. Again the French paradox shows clearly that people who eat
a lot of fat are not necessarily fat. That fact cannot be ignored.

TC

Ann said:

I know from personal experience, that adding globs of sour cream &
butter to a baked potatoe will put more pounds on you than if you have
the potatoe alone, or with a very very small amount of either or with a
little low fat cottage cheese.

TC's advice on that at least, is nonsense.

How do you know that it was the sour cream and not the potato? You
don't. It could just as easily been the potato chips and the soda you
had the night before. Or the pie and ice cream you had for dessert.

Calories mean squat. Dietary fat means squat. If calories or fat meant
anything, everyone, virtually without exception, who went on a
low-calorie low-fat diet would succeed every time and they would all be
thin. 98% or more who do low-fat low-calorie dieting fails.

Virtually everyone who tries to diet by low-fat and low-calorie fails.
That means that calories and fat means squat.

BUT... if you restrict carbs, you will easily (well easier than low
fat) succeed in virtually every case, at least 98%.

For anyone with statistical training, you will realize that that covers
everyone under the bell curve up to about the third standard deviation.
Which means that past statistics clearly have shown that
low-fat/low-calorie is completely wrong, mathematically speaking. It
simply does not work.

I've challenged those in sci.med.nutrition to explain the specific
bio-chemical process that determines and monitors calories ingested and
the subsequent process that supposedly triggers fat storage or fat use
from that information, and no one can explain how it supposedly works.
It is a modern medical fallacy. The body cannot measure or detect or
respond to excess calorie consumption directly.

The body is triggered to either store or use fat by the
insulin/glucagon hormone balance process. The insulin/glucagon balance
responds to the blood glucose levels. When blood glucose levels go up,
insulin is produced, it triggers the bodies cells to convert the
glucose into fat and store it. Conversely, when the blood glucose
levels are within normal ranges, the body is not triggered to store
fat. Blood glucose levels are thrown out of whack by consuming large
amounts of carbohydrates, specifically the refined and starchy carbs.

Thus a potato with lots of cream or butter will be digested slower and
will affect the bgl less than a plain potato which will be absorbed
faster and will cause a more pronounced insulin spike. The more
pronounced insulin spike will cause the body to store fat quicker and
longer.

Low fat milk is a waste of time. Low fat foods is working against
weight loss. Again the French paradox shows clearly that people who eat
a lot of fat are not necessarily fat. That fact cannot be ignored.

TC

Common sense and moderation are the keys to good health. They reflect a
balanced personality and will result in a balanced state of health.

It sounds as though some of you are looking for justifications to eat
all the carbs and/or fats you want and not suffer any consequences.
Then you go about spouting pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo that you hope
will bring you to the conclusions you want to get to.

Get real.

Common sense and moderation are the keys to good health. They reflect a
balanced personality and will result in a balanced state of health.

It sounds as though some of you are looking for justifications to eat
all the carbs and/or fats you want and not suffer any consequences.
Then you go about spouting pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo that you hope
will bring you to the conclusions you want to get to.

Get real.

x-no-archive: yes

Quoted message said:

Calories mean squat. Dietary fat means squat.

I'm a long time low carber and I'm here to tell you that calories and
fat count for a LOT.

If calories or fat meant

Quoted message said:

anything, everyone, virtually without exception, who went on a
low-calorie low-fat diet would succeed every time and they would all be
thin. 98% or more who do low-fat low-calorie dieting fails.

Actually, 95% of *all* weight loss dieters fail. Weight loss is hard,
loss maintenance is really hard. If it were easy, no one would be fat.

Quoted message said:

Virtually everyone who tries to diet by low-fat and low-calorie fails.
That means that calories and fat means squat.

ROFL!

Quoted message said:

BUT... if you restrict carbs, you will easily (well easier than low
fat) succeed in virtually every case, at least 98%.

[censored]. No study, even those supporting low carb, find that 98%
succeed in losing to goal or in maintaining. And any long term studies
comparing low carb to low fat find that the loss rates are the same
after the initial faster loss with low carb after a year.

Quoted message said:

For anyone with statistical training, you will realize that that covers
everyone under the bell curve up to about the third standard deviation.
Which means that past statistics clearly have shown that
low-fat/low-calorie is completely wrong, mathematically speaking. It
simply does not work.

LOL

You're very amusing, even when you're completely off base.

Susan

x-no-archive: yes

Visual Purple said:

Common sense and moderation are the keys to good health.

Mushy words. Now get 10 people to agree on what "common sense" and
"moderation" mean. Sheesh.

Quoted message said:

They reflect a
balanced personality and will result in a balanced state of health.

More mushy thinking mumbo jumbo.

Quoted message said:

It sounds as though some of you are looking for justifications to eat
all the carbs and/or fats you want and not suffer any consequences.
Then you go about spouting pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo that you hope
will bring you to the conclusions you want to get to.

Get real.

Drop the slogans and pick up a scientific journal, whydontcha?

Susan

"Reba" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've often noticed some days I wake up feeling so full of energy and
other days I wake up feeling tired. I think I'll start a diary of what
I eat and then when I have one of those high energy days and maybe I'll
begin to zoom in on the best way of eating (for me).

One of the best ways to identify food intolerances is an elimination diet.
It isn't easy to do but low carb can work for vegetarians and you can find
websites about it, probably. The thing about Atkins induction is that you
cut out some of the most likely offenders and slowly and carefully add some
back in to see what happens, that one would be hard to do without any meat.
Another diet you might look into is the GARD diet, although he is against
cow's milk but think goat's milk may be OK, he's down on soy also but you
may get an idea of what foods to try eliminating and adding back to test for
effect. Do you have any cravings? That can be another sign (like waking up
tired) of an intolerance to the craved item.

Quoted message said:

I wish I understood better however, regardless of what kind of diet
you believe in, how you can reduce the fat making principles at work
when consuming pasta and breads so as to counteract that activity or
reduce it. If it happens because of how quickly and easily we digest
carbs, then it would seem that eating it with something that is harder
to digest should slow everything down and help. But I'm not a
scientist and really don't understand how it all works.

Your muscles and liver can store a certain amount of glucose. When you eat
carbs, they start being converted to glucose when your saliva hits them, if
you eat more carbs at one time than what you are currently burning in your
muscles and brain plus what your muscles and liver can store, the liver uses
insulin to convert it to fat for storage. If you are carbohydrate
intolerant you may be hyperinsulemic, also. As long as you keep eating a
lot of carb you will keep producing a lot of insulin, as long as you have a
lot of insulin in your blood you will store any excess glucose as fat and
often crave carbs. I think the Atkins site may have a list of symptoms
that may indicate a person has a carb intolerance.
The thing with pizza is it has a lot of carb and a lot of fat so it
increases blood glucose and insulin production and keeps it up for a long
time because the fat slows the carb down. This is what makes pizza a hard
food for diabetics to tolerate, since they often have lost at least some of
their insulin producing cells even though they may be producing much more
than normal amounts due to insulin resistance. You want the carb you eat to
be slowed by having high fiber content, fat, or protein as long as it isn't
enough carb to increase insulin production so much. You can only mediate
the insulin response by reducing the amount of carb you eat.

--
No Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes

Quoted message said:

Ann said:

I know from personal experience, that adding globs of sour cream &
butter to a baked potatoe will put more pounds on you than if you have
the potatoe alone, or with a very very small amount of either or with a
little low fat cottage cheese.

TC's advice on that at least, is nonsense.

How do you know that it was the sour cream and not the potato? You
don't.

Yes, I do. As I said, I know this from personal experience. I have
tried different eating styles when losing weight in the past. I lost a
lot of weight in the past when I cut out extra fat. That meant little
or NO fat in the baked potatoe.

I can feel my belt is tighter the very next morning if I eat a baked
potatoe loaded the way I like it, which is loaded with sour cream and
butter.

If I eat a baked potatoe with very little butter, perhaps a tablespoon
or less, I don't experience my belt tightening the next morning.

So don't tell me I don't know. I do. I lost about 30 lbs in the past by
going to low fat in my coffee, using less fat in my baked potatoe,
eating less cheese, having spagetti with homemade spagettie sauce with
no fat, no meat, etc., and basically just cutting down on all foods
that contain fat, both meat and dairy sources.

AND of course exercise. Before I changed the fat content of my menu,
even though I exercised daily, I did not lose weight. As soon as I cut
down the fat, the lbs rolled off.

Quoted message said:

It could just as easily been the potato chips and the soda you
had the night before.

??????? How can you assume something like that?

I don't eat potatoe chips or drink soda. I drink water only and coffee
in the morning.
You know nothing about me.

Eating a baked potatoe the way you described is downright BAD ADVICE.

Quoted message said:

Or the pie and ice cream you had for dessert.

I also don't eat pie or ice cream or dessert. I do not have a sweet
tooth. Again, you assume much and know little.

Quoted message said:

Calories mean squat. Dietary fat means squat. If calories or fat meant
anything, everyone, virtually without exception, who went on a
low-calorie low-fat diet would succeed every time and they would all be
thin. 98% or more who do low-fat low-calorie dieting fails.

<sigh>

What's the use with arguing with such logic??

Ann wrote:
:: [email hidden] wrote:
::: Ann wrote:
:::: I know from personal experience, that adding globs of sour cream &
:::: butter to a baked potatoe will put more pounds on you than if you
:::: have the potatoe alone, or with a very very small amount of either
:::: or with a little low fat cottage cheese.
::::
:::: TC's advice on that at least, is nonsense.
:::
::: How do you know that it was the sour cream and not the potato? You
::: don't.
::
:: Yes, I do. As I said, I know this from personal experience. I have
:: tried different eating styles when losing weight in the past. I lost
:: a lot of weight in the past when I cut out extra fat. That meant
:: little or NO fat in the baked potatoe.
::
:: I can feel my belt is tighter the very next morning if I eat a baked
:: potatoe loaded the way I like it, which is loaded with sour cream and
:: butter.
::
:: If I eat a baked potatoe with very little butter, perhaps a
:: tablespoon or less, I don't experience my belt tightening the next
:: morning.

Are you saying that all you ate in each case was either a loaded baked
potato or an unloaded baked potato - and you, in the former case, noticed
your belt was tigher and in the latter you didn't?

If you're saying that, then you get a big "nonsense" from me, unless you
were eating adding a LOT of loading to your potato.

::
:: So don't tell me I don't know. I do. I lost about 30 lbs in the past
:: by going to low fat in my coffee, using less fat in my baked potatoe,
:: eating less cheese, having spagetti with homemade spagettie sauce
:: with no fat, no meat, etc., and basically just cutting down on all
:: foods that contain fat, both meat and dairy sources.
::

And you lost weight because you ate fewer calories, not because you ate less
fat, meat, and dairy.

:: AND of course exercise. Before I changed the fat content of my menu,
:: even though I exercised daily, I did not lose weight. As soon as I
:: cut down the fat, the lbs rolled off.

That's because you were overeating. As soon as you stopped, out lost
weight.

::
::
::: It could just as easily been the potato chips and the soda you
::: had the night before.
::
:: ??????? How can you assume something like that?
::
:: I don't eat potatoe chips or drink soda. I drink water only and
:: coffee in the morning.
:: You know nothing about me.
::
:: Eating a baked potatoe the way you described is downright BAD ADVICE.

I agree with that.

::
::
::
::: Or the pie and ice cream you had for dessert.
::
:: I also don't eat pie or ice cream or dessert. I do not have a sweet
:: tooth. Again, you assume much and know little.
::
:::
::: Calories mean squat. Dietary fat means squat. If calories or fat
::: meant anything, everyone, virtually without exception, who went on a
::: low-calorie low-fat diet would succeed every time and they would
::: all be thin. 98% or more who do low-fat low-calorie dieting fails.
:::
::
:: <sigh>
::
:: What's the use with arguing with such logic??