carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintainmuscles and lose fat?

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by cguttman, Dec 15, 2005.

  1. cguttman

    cguttman Guest

    Hello,

    I read about how insulin influences the metabolism in your body. I have
    a question regarding food combinations when fasting. The situation is as
    follows:

    I eat meals where food is a mix of carb-protein-no fat (eg bread+beans,
    bread+cottage cheese) OR a mix of protein-fat-no carbs (eg avocado +
    makril + tomatoes). I eat 500-1000 calories less a day according to
    average requirements + exercise (average requirement would be 2500-3000,
    incl. exercise of 500cals per day).

    The reason I am combining food in these ways is to prevent loosing
    muscles. Is this a reasonable approach to lose fat before muscles?

    thanks, Chris
     
    Tags:


  2. MMu

    MMu Guest

    "cguttman" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email protected]
    > Hello,
    >
    > I read about how insulin influences the metabolism in your body. I have a
    > question regarding food combinations when fasting. The situation is as
    > follows:
    >
    > I eat meals where food is a mix of carb-protein-no fat (eg bread+beans,
    > bread+cottage cheese) OR a mix of protein-fat-no carbs (eg avocado +
    > makril + tomatoes). I eat 500-1000 calories less a day according to
    > average requirements + exercise (average requirement would be 2500-3000,
    > incl. exercise of 500cals per day).
    >
    > The reason I am combining food in these ways is to prevent loosing
    > muscles. Is this a reasonable approach to lose fat before muscles?


    It does not make sense to me since fat, protein and carbs have a synergistic
    effect on each other when it comes to digestion/uptake. To prevent muscle
    loss your main goal should be to a) keep gluconeogenesis low.
    Gluconeogenesis sets in when blood glucose levels drop below a certain
    treshhold.. the body then
    starts to get glucose out of other sources, mainly liver glycogen and
    glycogenic amino acids. b) keep training (but not necessarily
    high-intensity). Loosing fat before muscle adds training at the right level
    of intensity (ie heart rate/RQ/lactate generation) and lowering fat content
    of the diet.
     
  3. joanne

    joanne Guest

    cguttman wrote:
    > The reason I am combining food in these ways is to prevent loosing
    > muscles. Is this a reasonable approach to lose fat before muscles?


    Combining foods as such doesnt stop catabolism of muscle tissue. To
    preserve muscle you need to support it with enough calories. Insulin
    response packs fatcells when you overeat something (usually a high
    processed carb - note: not all carbs are created equal).
    To lose bodyfat (and reshape your body) you really need to be
    exercising, both cardio and weights. Usually if you are new to
    dieting/exercising can you lose bodyfat while gaining muscle, otherwise
    its one or the other.


    joanne
     
  4. cguttman

    cguttman Guest

    Hi Joanne,


    > Combining foods as such doesnt stop catabolism of muscle tissue. To
    > preserve muscle you need to support it with enough calories. Insulin
    > response packs fatcells when you overeat something (usually a high
    > processed carb - note: not all carbs are created equal).


    So, high insulin levels and fat will pack fatcells. That means that if
    you eat carbs and fat, than your body is more likely to put on fat
    before putting on muscle or losing fat.
    In which case my suggestion of eating carbs-protein or protein and fat
    makes sense. Is that correct?

    > To lose bodyfat (and reshape your body) you really need to be
    > exercising, both cardio and weights. Usually if you are new to
    > dieting/exercising can you lose bodyfat while gaining muscle, otherwise
    > its one or the other.


    I am doing a lot of exercise, 2 hrs soccer, 1 hr running, or 3 hrs
    Squash. My question was only regarding food combination.

    Chris


    >
    >
    > joanne
    >
     
  5. cguttman wrote:
    >
    > So, high insulin levels and fat will pack fatcells. That means that if
    > you eat carbs and fat, than your body is more likely to put on fat
    > before putting on muscle or losing fat.
    > In which case my suggestion of eating carbs-protein or protein and fat
    > makes sense. Is that correct?


    Partially correct. The plans from Suzanne Sommers do this. A
    meal either has carby foods or fatty foods but not both.

    For the same total calories, a low-carb/medium-protein/high-fat plan
    triggers less muscle loss than a high-carb/medium-protein/low-fat
    plan. So if your only goal is to preserve lean staying low carb most
    of the time works better.

    But so long as you have sufficient protein intake the difference is
    small. And it appears you do have sufficient protein intake.
     
  6. cguttman

    cguttman Guest

    Hello Doug,

    thanks for your response. Comments below...


    > Partially correct. The plans from Suzanne Sommers do this. A
    > meal either has carby foods or fatty foods but not both.


    I dont know who Suzanne Sommers is.

    >
    > For the same total calories, a low-carb/medium-protein/high-fat plan
    > triggers less muscle loss than a high-carb/medium-protein/low-fat
    > plan. So if your only goal is to preserve lean staying low carb most
    > of the time works better.


    I am not sure what you mean? Staying low carb most of the time - this
    would prevent an anabolic effect on muscle growth? Mhm...
    I am doing a lot of exercise, weights and cardio. So, wouldnt it be
    smart to eat carbs-protein combinations most of the time. At the moment,
    I eat one meal a day that contains low-carb/medium-protein/high-fat plan
    (usually first or second lunch, also has around 25% of dails calorie
    intake and 90% of daily fat intake), and the remaining 4 meals are
    high-carb/medium-protein/low-fat.

    >
    > But so long as you have sufficient protein intake the difference is
    > small. And it appears you do have sufficient protein intake.


    Thanks. Chris
     
  7. adak

    adak Guest

    NO.

    You will ALWAYS lose muscle mass when you diet. There is no way to
    toally prevent it.

    Some ways to help reduce it are:

    1) Don't let your diet become a fast. Eat smaller, frequent meals, with
    a low glycemic index. Goal here is to keep an even amount of insulin in
    the bloodstream, for a longer time. Insulin helps bring in amino acids
    that are necessary for muscles to maintain. But you have to balance
    that with your need to keep insulin relatively low, while dieting. You
    can't have high insulin levels and have a good diet. They are as
    opposite as day and night.

    2) Exercise. You will lose more muscle mass if you don't exercise while
    dieting. Even moderate exercise is a good start. Some strength training
    exercise should be included, ideally.

    3) When you eat, try to balance out your carbs, your protein, and your
    fats, every day, at least. Your goal is to give your body all the amino
    acids, essential fatty acids, bulk, fiber, etc., that it needs, every
    day. Cutting anything short on one day can NOT always be made up by
    adding more on another day. (sometimes yes, sometimes, no).

    I wouldn't worry about the muscle mass you lose while dieting. That
    mass will return (although probably not all of it), and you don't need
    a lot of muscle mass for many athletic events.

    Take Lance Armstrong for one great example. He was a very good cyclist
    before his cancer, but after his cancer, after losing a lot of muscle
    mass (particularly in the shoulders and torso, which he never
    regained), he was actually able to become a far better bicycle racer
    than he ever was before. Especially in the mountains, where his
    decrease in weight, helped him a lot.

    Leaner muscle mass does not always mean less strength, and can enhance
    performance in some events.

    adak
     
  8. cguttman

    cguttman Guest

    Hello,

    Thanks. I am aware of all the three points that you mentioned, and they
    do not really address my question. I comment briefly,

    1) In general, I eat low GI food (exception: I eat high GI right after
    exercise) to have a balanced insulin level in my blood. I believe though
    that having a constant level of insulin could lead to insulin
    resistance, thats why I eat one meal a day with few carbs.

    2) As mentioned earlier, I do heaps of exercise.

    3) I eat a balanced diet on a daily basis (~50% carbs, 30% protein, 20%
    fat). The nutrition that I am eating are high quality, e.g. few
    saturated/trans fats.

    My question is if a certain combination of nutrition for certain meals
    can help to reduce the loss of muscle mass while fasting.

    You make too many assumptions about me: I am not bulky and I dont want
    to become bulky, and I think the *right* amount of muscles can help a
    great deal in certain sports.

    Chris


    adak wrote:
    > NO.
    >
    > You will ALWAYS lose muscle mass when you diet. There is no way to
    > toally prevent it.
    >
    > Some ways to help reduce it are:
    >
    > 1) Don't let your diet become a fast. Eat smaller, frequent meals, with
    > a low glycemic index. Goal here is to keep an even amount of insulin in
    > the bloodstream, for a longer time. Insulin helps bring in amino acids
    > that are necessary for muscles to maintain. But you have to balance
    > that with your need to keep insulin relatively low, while dieting. You
    > can't have high insulin levels and have a good diet. They are as
    > opposite as day and night.
    >
    > 2) Exercise. You will lose more muscle mass if you don't exercise while
    > dieting. Even moderate exercise is a good start. Some strength training
    > exercise should be included, ideally.
    >
    > 3) When you eat, try to balance out your carbs, your protein, and your
    > fats, every day, at least. Your goal is to give your body all the amino
    > acids, essential fatty acids, bulk, fiber, etc., that it needs, every
    > day. Cutting anything short on one day can NOT always be made up by
    > adding more on another day. (sometimes yes, sometimes, no).
    >
    > I wouldn't worry about the muscle mass you lose while dieting. That
    > mass will return (although probably not all of it), and you don't need
    > a lot of muscle mass for many athletic events.
    >
    > Take Lance Armstrong for one great example. He was a very good cyclist
    > before his cancer, but after his cancer, after losing a lot of muscle
    > mass (particularly in the shoulders and torso, which he never
    > regained), he was actually able to become a far better bicycle racer
    > than he ever was before. Especially in the mountains, where his
    > decrease in weight, helped him a lot.
    >
    > Leaner muscle mass does not always mean less strength, and can enhance
    > performance in some events.
    >
    > adak
    >
     
  9. Doug Freese

    Doug Freese Guest

    "adak" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > NO.
    >
    > You will ALWAYS lose muscle mass when you diet. There is no way to
    > toally prevent it.


    I may be coming in the middle of this but the statement is at best
    vague. What do you mean by diet and how do you quantify this?

    > 1) Don't let your diet become a fast. Eat smaller, frequent meals,
    > with
    > a low glycemic index. Goal here is to keep an even amount of insulin
    > in
    > the bloodstream, for a longer time. Insulin helps bring in amino acids
    > that are necessary for muscles to maintain. But you have to balance
    > that with your need to keep insulin relatively low, while dieting. You
    > can't have high insulin levels and have a good diet. They are as
    > opposite as day and night.


    Define high/low insulin and how about those that are minumally effected.

    >
    > 2) Exercise. You will lose more muscle mass if you don't exercise
    > while
    > dieting. Even moderate exercise is a good start. Some strength
    > training
    > exercise should be included, ideally.


    I'm a firm believer in exercise but I don't believe your opening
    statement unless the diet is one of excessive caloric restriction,
    almost starvation.

    > 3) When you eat, try to balance out your carbs, your protein, and your
    > fats, every day, at least. Your goal is to give your body all the
    > amino
    > acids, essential fatty acids, bulk, fiber, etc., that it needs, every
    > day. Cutting anything short on one day can NOT always be made up by
    > adding more on another day. (sometimes yes, sometimes, no).


    Eat balanced?

    > Take Lance Armstrong for one great example. He was a very good cyclist
    > before his cancer, but after his cancer, after losing a lot of muscle
    > mass (particularly in the shoulders and torso, which he never
    > regained), he was actually able to become a far better bicycle racer
    > than he ever was before. Especially in the mountains, where his
    > decrease in weight, helped him a lot.


    He lost that weight/mass from chemo and it's effects. Until his cancer
    his body stayed steady. We know after the fact that his "chemoed" off
    mass made him a better cyclist with less weight as he regained his
    strength. He could have bulked up to his original mass but chose not to.


    > Leaner muscle mass does not always mean less strength, and can enhance
    > performance in some events.


    I still need to undertand your initial accertion about loosing muscle
    mass while dieting.

    -DF
     
  10. Dr Tomato

    Dr Tomato Guest

    "Doug Freese" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "adak" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> NO.
    >>
    >> You will ALWAYS lose muscle mass when you diet. There is no way to
    >> toally prevent it.

    >
    > I may be coming in the middle of this but the statement is at best vague.
    > What do you mean by diet and how do you quantify this?
    >...
    > I still need to undertand your initial accertion about loosing muscle mass
    > while dieting.


    Doug, you understand as much as all of us what adak meant.

    It's just that it's not correct...

    The body needs about 1.25 gm/Kg of protein (and a reasonable supply of
    essential
    amino acid) and it will claim what it needs for repair and growth. With a
    calorie
    deficit diet, body fat will get consumed. Some DIETARY protein make get
    converted to energy rather than maintenance and growth, but 1.25 is safe.
    However a low activity regime means muscles loss by atrophy...

    Chypho...
     
  11. "cguttman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Hello,
    >
    > I read about how insulin influences the metabolism in your body. I have a
    > question regarding food combinations when fasting. The situation is as
    > follows:
    >
    > I eat meals where food is a mix of carb-protein-no fat (eg bread+beans,
    > bread+cottage cheese) OR a mix of protein-fat-no carbs (eg avocado +
    > makril + tomatoes). I eat 500-1000 calories less a day according to
    > average requirements + exercise (average requirement would be 2500-3000,
    > incl. exercise of 500cals per day).
    >
    > The reason I am combining food in these ways is to prevent loosing
    > muscles. Is this a reasonable approach to lose fat before muscles?
    >
    > thanks, Chris


    You shouldn't be fasting. It's bad for your metabolism and your heart.
     
  12. cguttman

    cguttman Guest

    I used the word "fasting" as eating 500-1000 calories less a day
    according to average requirements + exercise.

    Patricia Heil wrote:
    > "cguttman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Hello,
    >>
    >>I read about how insulin influences the metabolism in your body. I have a
    >>question regarding food combinations when fasting. The situation is as
    >>follows:
    >>
    >>I eat meals where food is a mix of carb-protein-no fat (eg bread+beans,
    >>bread+cottage cheese) OR a mix of protein-fat-no carbs (eg avocado +
    >>makril + tomatoes). I eat 500-1000 calories less a day according to
    >>average requirements + exercise (average requirement would be 2500-3000,
    >>incl. exercise of 500cals per day).
    >>
    >>The reason I am combining food in these ways is to prevent loosing
    >>muscles. Is this a reasonable approach to lose fat before muscles?
    >>
    >>thanks, Chris

    >
    >
    > You shouldn't be fasting. It's bad for your metabolism and your heart.
    >
    >
     
  13. adak

    adak Guest

    Hi again Chris,

    You wrote: "
    1) In general, I eat low GI food (exception: I eat high GI right after
    exercise) to have a balanced insulin level in my blood. I believe
    though
    that having a constant level of insulin could lead to insulin
    resistance, thats why I eat one meal a day with few carbs. "

    OK!! I think I'm understanding your logic here. You eat higher GI right
    after exercise to give your muscles a chance to rebuild themselves with
    the aid of increased insulin, but you're worried about insulin
    resistance, so you then limit one meal a day to low carb, to help
    handle that need.

    I haven't read any studies on that approach, Chris. Do you know if any
    have been done on this kind of cycling approach to insulin levels?

    Sorry about my assumptions. You would have to write a lot more in depth
    to really cover all of your status, however. What I wanted to
    emphasize, was that losing some muscle bulk, doesn't have to be an
    athletic disaster for someone.

    Obviously, the muscle must be in in good supply and good order, to get
    any work/athletic's, done. ;-)

    What about contacting the Olympic training facility, and popping that
    question to them? I have heard from bodybuilder's, that they have to
    eat/drink, their additives (not steroids), on a rather strict schedule
    to achieve their optimum hypertrophy of their muscles.

    The problem with that is it tends to be anecdotal, and not any kind of
    a double-blind study, with a statistically significant number of
    subjects. Those are always hard to come by, unfortunately.

    adak
     
  14. adak

    adak Guest

    Hi Doug,

    I define diet as a slightly negative energy balance, just a bit more
    going out than coming in. A diet is not a fast, however.

    The quantity of insulin is not the issue. The point is that eating high
    GI foods will cause a marked increase in insulin in non-diabetic
    people.

    Everyone is different, but in my experience, a large percentage of
    dieter's do achieve a "sugar rush" if they have high GI intake with
    enough volume. Skinny people who have never dieted, feel this "sugar
    rush", but to a lesser extent. They also just plainly eat less, and/or
    are more active.

    About losing muscles mass while dieting:

    It's been known since I started lifting weights decades ago (I don't
    lift any more). The problem is the body uses insulin to help the cells
    (especially the muscle cells), increase their intake of nutrients. When
    you go into a negative energy balance (a diet), your insulin levels
    drop, and so does the ability of the muscles to intake energy and
    essential amino acids they need to grow and rebuild from exercise.
    So you lose some muscle mass when you diet. You can minimize that
    effect, but you can't stop it.

    It's your body's way of preserving itself through a time of scarce
    food/famine. The more your body experiences food deprivation, the worse
    the muscle atrophy will be. For extreme examples, look at the anorexic
    and Nazi concentration camp photo's.

    If anyone tells you different, without enhancements like steroids,
    they're lying. And no, natural herbs and supplements won't do the
    trick, either.

    Google on nitrogen balance while in negative energy balance, and muscle
    atrophy from restrictive diets, etc.

    When you say Lance's muscles were "chemo'ed off", you know what caused
    that, right? Intense nausea, and inability to hold down his food. In
    other words, he was put into negative energy balance, or a diet. It
    just wasn't one that he got to choose what he could eat, and keep down.

    adak
     
  15. adak

    adak Guest

    Sorry Chypho,

    You can have all the protein and amino acids you want, but the muscles
    can't use them while you're in a state of negative energy balance,
    effectively enough, to prevent some muscle atrophy.

    It has to get into the muscle cells, and it can't do that, in the
    quantity needed.

    Steroids change that assertion, however.

    adak
     
  16. adak

    adak Guest

    OK, well there's a difference.

    Fasting to me is a total intake of zero to less than 1000 calories /
    day, total.

    Going into a negative energy balance of 500 - 1000 calories / day is
    what I call a diet.

    Can we agree on those two definitions? Because fasts are generally NOT
    healthy, and I won't discuss or encourage same.

    adak
     
  17. cguttman

    cguttman Guest

    Thanks.

    > Google on nitrogen balance while in negative energy balance, and muscle
    > atrophy from restrictive diets, etc.


    ok. My question is now: Can I keep a positive nitrogen balance while in
    negative energy balance?

    My approach to keep a positive nitrogen balance would be to make sure
    that I have enough complete proteins in my blood throughout the day.
    That means that I would eat/drink ~10grams of complete protein every 2-3
    hrs. Sounds reasonable?

    Chris



    PS: I came across a few articles about nitrogen balance, here is one...
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson75.htm
     
  18. Doug Freese

    Doug Freese Guest

    "cguttman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >I used the word "fasting" as eating 500-1000 calories less a day
    >according to average requirements + exercise.



    Why in the world would you want to eat so few calories AND exercise?
    This is like trying to walk the Mohave Desert with a pepple in your
    mouth and no water. It's obvious you need to burn more calories then you
    input to lose weight. But trying to exercise on such a restricted diet
    for any length of time is detrimental to your health and your exercise
    will turn to shit. Sounds to me like you putting 5 of 6 bullets in the
    gun, spinning and shooting toward your head.

    Eat balanced albeit a few less calories(skip the snickers bars and junk
    food), exercise and the weight will come off and or redistribute with
    some muscle increase and some fat loss. The proportion of lost fat and
    muscle increase is proportional to your exercise.

    -DF
     
  19. Doug Freese

    Doug Freese Guest

    "adak" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Hi Doug,
    >
    > I define diet as a slightly negative energy balance, just a bit more
    > going out than coming in. A diet is not a fast, however.


    We are on the same page here.

    > The quantity of insulin is not the issue. The point is that eating
    > high
    > GI foods will cause a marked increase in insulin in non-diabetic
    > people.


    I can't get my arms around this. Not trying to be cute but how high is
    high, and a marked increase is how much?
    >
    > Everyone is different, but in my experience, a large percentage of
    > dieter's do achieve a "sugar rush" if they have high GI intake with
    > enough volume. Skinny people who have never dieted, feel this "sugar
    > rush", but to a lesser extent. They also just plainly eat less, and/or
    > are more active.


    And some people do not sense anything. I agree that each individual has
    some reaction to high GI food but I also think this has been over
    generalized by Sears and even more by Atkins as an worldly egregious
    earth shattering implosion. I'm not convinced from any of the literature
    that I have read that this is true. Combine this with exercise and GI
    it's less important. When human performance labs look into exercise and
    calories, they stress complex carbs in general with no notion of GI or
    GL. If we look at the elite sports people they are carb freaks. Ever see
    what a Kenyan eats daily? I only use the elites because they get the
    attention. Performance labs are looking to get the most energy out of
    the human body. As part of their testing they do test the spectrum of
    ability and the data holds up with volume of exercise and calories.


    > muscles mass while dieting:
    >
    > It's been known since I started lifting weights decades ago (I don't
    > lift any more). The problem is the body uses insulin to help the cells
    > (especially the muscle cells), increase their intake of nutrients.
    > When
    > you go into a negative energy balance (a diet), your insulin levels
    > drop, and so does the ability of the muscles to intake energy and
    > essential amino acids they need to grow and rebuild from exercise.
    > So you lose some muscle mass when you diet. You can minimize that
    > effect, but you can't stop it.


    I'd like to see a paper on this. If a person is reasonably reducing his
    input, meaning a general reduction and not all of any food group(like
    low carb ketosis), he should be getting sufficient protein to not cause
    any muscle loss and in fact likely gain muscle mass and while losing
    some fat. Can you show me some data points that relate insulin and
    protein that demonstrate this?


    > It's your body's way of preserving itself through a time of scarce
    > food/famine. The more your body experiences food deprivation, the
    > worse
    > the muscle atrophy will be. For extreme examples, look at the anorexic
    > and Nazi concentration camp photo's.


    I understand this in the extreme but I'm addressing those simply
    reducing some calories.


    > When you say Lance's muscles were "chemo'ed off", you know what caused
    > that, right? Intense nausea, and inability to hold down his food. In
    > other words, he was put into negative energy balance, or a diet. It
    > just wasn't one that he got to choose what he could eat, and keep
    > down.


    I completely agree. Lance was in in severe calorie reduction(a lot of
    lunch blowing from thre chemo) and still exercising. I did read his book
    and it's an incredible read. Catabolic comes to mind. We seem to agree
    in places yet disagree in others. I'm not looking through the eyes of
    someone doing severe calorie restriction(fasting like) and exercise but
    more to the average person who wants to lose weight by gentle reduction
    calories and some added exercise. In this case I do not see any muscle
    loss and just the opposite. If your covering the catabolic case then
    yes, one eats himself, both fat and muscle.

    -DF
     
  20. Doug Freese

    Doug Freese Guest

    "adak" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Sorry Chypho,
    >
    > You can have all the protein and amino acids you want, but the muscles
    > can't use them while you're in a state of negative energy balance,
    > effectively enough, to prevent some muscle atrophy.


    And I politely ask to quantify "negative energy balance" such that ones
    gets muscles atophy?

    > Steroids change that assertion, however.


    Look at the Governor of Caliofornia on that one but I think it caused a
    intelligence reduction. :)

    -DF
     
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