carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintainmuscles and lose fat?



M

Matthew Venhaus

Guest
cguttman <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Comments below...
>
> Matthew Venhaus wrote:
>
> > cguttman <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]
> >
> >>Thanks.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Google on nitrogen balance while in negative energy balance, and

> >
> > muscle
> >
> >>>atrophy from restrictive diets, etc.
> >>
> >>ok. My question is now: Can I keep a positive nitrogen balance

while
> >
> > in
> >
> >>negative energy balance?
> >>

> >
> > With sufficient protein intake, sure. But for hormonal reasons, I
> > think the more important factor for optimal muscle hypertrophy is

a
> > positive energy balance.

>
> Why is positive energy balance more important because of hormonal
> reasons? I dont understand.
>

Testosterone, growth hormone, insulin, insulin-like growth factor,
etc. are at suboptimal levels on an energy deficient diet. Muscle
growth is still possible, but not optimal.

> >
> > You've also mention doing "heaploads" of exercise. In some cases,

less
> > is more. Perhaps you could be more specific about what you are

doing
> > in terms of exercise?

>
> Typical week:
> Mon - Upper body weights, 1 hr in the morning, 1 hr in the evening
> Tue - Jogging on beach 1 hr (sometimes afternoon as well)
> Wed - Lower body weight, 1 hr in the morning, 1 hr in the evening
> Thu - Soccer - 2hrs
> Fri - Swimming 2km
> Sat - Squash - 2-3hrs
> Sun - Rest
>

What are you trying to accomplish? I would advise that you pick your
highest priority goal and focus on it for a few weeks. Out of
curiousity more than anything else, what do the strength training
workouts look like? Exercises, sets, reps, rest periods?

> >>My approach to keep a positive nitrogen balance would be to make

> >
> > sure
> >
> >>that I have enough complete proteins in my blood throughout the

day.
> >>That means that I would eat/drink ~10grams of complete protein

every
> >
> > 2-3
> >
> >>hrs. Sounds reasonable?
> >>

> >

>
> > Is that waking hours? If you are eating 80g of protein per day (16
> > walking hours, 10g every 2 hours) it doesn't sound like enough. At

an
> > energy deficit, your body will be using protein as an energy

source so
> > you will need a bit more protein to compensate.
> >

>
> Yes, waking hours. And I meant at least 10gr every 2-3 hrs. So,
> sometimes I eat 20-40gram of protein, sometimes less. My daily

intake is
> around 150-170 gram of protein (~2.0/per kilo/per day).


That's reasonable.
>
> > Another factor I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is rest and
> > recovery.

>
> Very important indeed. I sleep enough (even after training

sometimes) ,
> and I make sure that after weight training for a particular muscle,

I
> wait at leat 5-7 days before I train this muscle again with weights.
>
> Is this information helpful?
>

Indeed. The last sentence looks like you have been influenced by HIT,
but the workouts posted don't fit that system well. I still think you
may not be getting optimal levels of recovery from your workouts. I
don't know that you have done this, but rather than picking and
choosing from several different workout systems, I would choose one
and follow it fully unless you are absolutely sure you know what you
are doing. HST would be as good a place as any to start (disclaimer:
for a non-beginner) if muscle growth is your goal.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html

As a general rule, you can't have it all. Pick one goal and focus more
intensely on it.

--
Matthew
Slow and steady wins the race.
 
D

Doug Freyburger

Guest
adak wrote:
>
> In the systemic sense, nitrogen balance is an indicator of energy
> balance within the system.


Nitrogen balance correlates with lean body mass, so it is one or
a few indicators of energy balance. Carbon balance works
better because nitrogen only counts lean while carbon counts
both lean and fat.

> Yes, and more on-topic to this group, energy is lost from the body as a
> whole, during dieting. And where do we store energy?
>
> 1) Fat (Adipose)
> 2) Muscles
> 3) Protein
> 4) Glucose
>
> But in what order are they used up by the body?
>
> 1) Glucose
> 2) Muscles
> 3) Protein
> 4) Fat (Adipose)


Correct. It's a good point that it's first-in-first-out. It's also a
good point that muscle is second and therefore retaining lean
is important to focus on.

> When the glucose is lowered too much, we can't completely restore our
> muscle size and strength.


Bzzt. You were doing great up to that point. Calorie for calorie, a
high-fat/medium-protein/low-carb plan preserves lean mass better
than high-carb/medium-protein/low-fat.
 
C

cguttman

Guest
Hi Matt,

you post is helpful - thanks. See comments below...

>>
>>Why is positive energy balance more important because of hormonal
>>reasons? I dont understand.
>>

>
> Testosterone, growth hormone, insulin, insulin-like growth factor,
> etc. are at suboptimal levels on an energy deficient diet. Muscle
> growth is still possible, but not optimal.


Sounds plausible, but I must admit that I do not have a good
understanding on how these hormones are influenced by a deprived calorie
intake.

>
>
>>Typical week:
>>Mon - Upper body weights, 1 hr in the morning, 1 hr in the evening
>>Tue - Jogging on beach 1 hr (sometimes afternoon as well)
>>Wed - Lower body weight, 1 hr in the morning, 1 hr in the evening
>>Thu - Soccer - 2hrs
>>Fri - Swimming 2km
>>Sat - Squash - 2-3hrs
>>Sun - Rest
>>

> What are you trying to accomplish? I would advise that you pick your
> highest priority goal and focus on it for a few weeks. Out of
> curiousity more than anything else, what do the strength training
> workouts look like? Exercises, sets, reps, rest periods?


My goal is simple: Lose 2-3 kilos of body fat, gain 0.5-1 kilo muscle -
become leaner (I am currently at 87kg now, 15%bodyfat). I understand
that losing weight and gain/maintain muscle is very complicated, that is
why I seek information from this newsgroup.

Exercise details: I usually do my upper body on Mon, and lower body on
Wed, or sometimes I do pull exercises on Mon and push exercises on Wed.
For example,

Monday (Pull):
Chin-ups 3 sets x 4 (just my weight)
Lower Row warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 180lbs
Dumbbell Bent Over Row warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 50lbs
Shrug warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 35lbs
Upright Row warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 35lbs
Squat warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 100lbs
Leg Curl warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 35lbs
Hip Adduction warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 20lbs

as many crunches a I can do in the end.

I do this exercises twice a day - morning at 8-9am and evening at 6-7pm.
The reason: I like to tear as much muscle as I can in one day, and
recover these muscles for 7 days (eg, until next monday).

The reason I do Soccer/Swimming/Squash/Tennis/"Run at beach" is just
that I love to do them. I wouldnt exchange them for weight training.

>
>
> Indeed. The last sentence looks like you have been influenced by HIT,
> but the workouts posted don't fit that system well. I still think you
> may not be getting optimal levels of recovery from your workouts. I
> don't know that you have done this, but rather than picking and
> choosing from several different workout systems, I would choose one
> and follow it fully unless you are absolutely sure you know what you
> are doing. HST would be as good a place as any to start (disclaimer:
> for a non-beginner) if muscle growth is your goal.
> http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html


HIT=High Intensity Training? Not sure?

I am keen to know: What is your suggestion regarding recovery?

>
> As a general rule, you can't have it all. Pick one goal and focus more
> intensely on it.
>
> --
> Matthew
> Slow and steady wins the race.
>


I actually did weight training in November for 4 weeks and gained a lot
of muscle. Now I like to do the same training but on a calorie deficient
diet to look leaner.

Chris
 
C

cguttman

Guest

>
> Bzzt. You were doing great up to that point. Calorie for calorie, a
> high-fat/medium-protein/low-carb plan preserves lean mass better
> than high-carb/medium-protein/low-fat.
>


Do you have a reference for this? Also, I assume you alternate this diet
from high-fat/medium-protein/low-carb to
high-carb/medium-protein/low-fat thoughout the day. Is that correct?

Chris
 
M

Matthew Venhaus

Guest
cguttman <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Hi Matt,
>
> you post is helpful - thanks. See comments below...
>

It looks to me like you are at a stage where you don't need to worry
so much about optimizing your training/diet for best results. As far
as recovery goes, I would suggest another rest day somewhere. Perhaps
working out faster (if I read correctly, the sample you posted was 11
work sets in 60 minutes) and putting the cardio workout (swimming or
jogging) in the place of the second strength training workout. That
change would give you Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday as full rest or
light activity days.

And at your current level of strength, I don't see the point of doing
split workouts. I like the emphasis on compound movements; don't be
afraid to add weight to your abdominal work. But there is no reason
you can't continue with the training you were doing in November and
got good results from on a somewhat lower calorie intake. You might
want to google information on a Targeted Ketogenic Diet. Basically it
involves the timing of carbohydrate intake around training.

Oh, and yes, HIT is high intensity training. HST is hypertrophy
specific training.
 
C

Cheese

Guest
cguttman wrote:
> Hi Matt,
>
> you post is helpful - thanks. See comments below...
>
>>>
>>> Why is positive energy balance more important because of hormonal
>>> reasons? I dont understand.
>>>

>>
>> Testosterone, growth hormone, insulin, insulin-like growth factor,
>> etc. are at suboptimal levels on an energy deficient diet. Muscle
>> growth is still possible, but not optimal.

>
> Sounds plausible, but I must admit that I do not have a good
> understanding on how these hormones are influenced by a deprived calorie
> intake.
>
>>
>>
>>> Typical week:
>>> Mon - Upper body weights, 1 hr in the morning, 1 hr in the evening
>>> Tue - Jogging on beach 1 hr (sometimes afternoon as well)
>>> Wed - Lower body weight, 1 hr in the morning, 1 hr in the evening
>>> Thu - Soccer - 2hrs
>>> Fri - Swimming 2km
>>> Sat - Squash - 2-3hrs
>>> Sun - Rest
>>>

>> What are you trying to accomplish? I would advise that you pick your
>> highest priority goal and focus on it for a few weeks. Out of
>> curiousity more than anything else, what do the strength training
>> workouts look like? Exercises, sets, reps, rest periods?

>
> My goal is simple: Lose 2-3 kilos of body fat, gain 0.5-1 kilo muscle -
> become leaner (I am currently at 87kg now, 15%bodyfat). I understand
> that losing weight and gain/maintain muscle is very complicated, that is
> why I seek information from this newsgroup.
>
> Exercise details: I usually do my upper body on Mon, and lower body on
> Wed, or sometimes I do pull exercises on Mon and push exercises on Wed.
> For example,
>
> Monday (Pull):
> Chin-ups 3 sets x 4 (just my weight)
> Lower Row warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 180lbs
> Dumbbell Bent Over Row warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 50lbs
> Shrug warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 35lbs
> Upright Row warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 35lbs
> Squat warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 100lbs
> Leg Curl warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 35lbs
> Hip Adduction warm-up half weight, 1 set x 8-12 at 20lbs
>
> as many crunches a I can do in the end.
>
> I do this exercises twice a day - morning at 8-9am and evening at 6-7pm.
> The reason: I like to tear as much muscle as I can in one day, and
> recover these muscles for 7 days (eg, until next monday).
>
> The reason I do Soccer/Swimming/Squash/Tennis/"Run at beach" is just
> that I love to do them. I wouldnt exchange them for weight training.
>
>>
>>
>> Indeed. The last sentence looks like you have been influenced by HIT,
>> but the workouts posted don't fit that system well. I still think you
>> may not be getting optimal levels of recovery from your workouts. I
>> don't know that you have done this, but rather than picking and
>> choosing from several different workout systems, I would choose one
>> and follow it fully unless you are absolutely sure you know what you
>> are doing. HST would be as good a place as any to start (disclaimer:
>> for a non-beginner) if muscle growth is your goal.
>> http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html

>
> HIT=High Intensity Training? Not sure?
>
> I am keen to know: What is your suggestion regarding recovery?
>
>>
>> As a general rule, you can't have it all. Pick one goal and focus more
>> intensely on it.
>>
>> --
>> Matthew
>> Slow and steady wins the race.
>>

>
> I actually did weight training in November for 4 weeks and gained a lot
> of muscle. Now I like to do the same training but on a calorie deficient
> diet to look leaner.
>
> Chris


Where did you find that workout?

You're going to have to make a decision. A one day all inclusive upper
body workout followed by a one day all inclusive lower body workout
isn't going to build much muscle. You're going to have to divide the
workout into at least 4 days allowing for rest. By rest I mean at least
three days in between, not morning and evening.

Push/pull will work and I actually followed that type of program for a
year or so. My push/pull workout looked like this though:

Horizontal Pushes & Horizontal Pulls (Monday): Flat Bench Press, Incline
Bench Press, Decline Bench Press, Fly, Pec Dec Fly, Lever Triceps Dip,
Cable Seated Row and T-Bar

Quad-dominants (Tuesday): Squats, Hack Squats, Lever Leg Extensions,
Lever Lying Leg Curls, Lever Seated Calf Raise and Sled Standing Calf Raise

Vertical Pushes and Vertical Pulls (Wednesday): Smith Shoulder Press,
Smith Upright Rows, Shrugs, Seated lateral raise, Lat Pull Down, Chin-Ups

Hip-dominants (Thursday): Deadlift, Tibia, Adductor and Abductor

Abs (Friday): Ball Sit-ups, Ball Push-ups, Ab Roller, weighted leg
lifts, weighted obliques, Dip crunches, Dip leg lifts, hanging leg lifts


I also noticed a bunch of warm-up sets in your routine. Most people
only need to warm up a muscle group once. In the case of a push/pull
workout you only need to warm up once for push and once for pull. After
completing a warm-up in each direction it is not required to warm up
when changing motions that exercise the same muscle group. (Example:
Monday you would do a warm-up set on the flat bench. After that warm-up
you would perform the Flat Bench sets, Incline Bench Press sets, Decline
Bench sets, Fly sets, Pec Dec. Fly sets without another warm-up. You
would then warm-up on Cable Seated rows and complete the T-Bar without
warm-up.)

Ripping muscle doesn't happen by going to the gym twice a day. Ripping
happens by working a muscle to failure. I doubt you're working to
failure in one set. Try doing three sets. The third set should be
heavy enough that you'll fail after the 4th rep. If you complete the
third set, increase the weight and do a fourth.


--

Cheese

http://cheesensweets.com/contact/cheese
 
A

adak

Guest
Doug,

You misunderstood what I was posting on that last point. Had nothing to
do with food intake composition. I was referring to glucose in the
blood and tissues, and the related insulin that works with cellular
transport.

adak
 
D

Doug Freyburger

Guest
cguttman wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > Bzzt. You were doing great up to that point. Calorie for calorie, a
> > high-fat/medium-protein/low-carb plan preserves lean mass better
> > than high-carb/medium-protein/low-fat.

>
> Do you have a reference for this?


Pick a study that compares by fat/carb/protein percentage that also
includes a carb level low enough to trigger ketosis. The high fat
ones have the best lean sparing, the high protein ones in the
middle and the the carb ones do the worst for lean sparing at
equal calorie levels.

> Also, I assume you alternate this diet
> from high-fat/medium-protein/low-carb to
> high-carb/medium-protein/low-fat thoughout the day. Is that correct?


No. That was discussed earlier in the thread, but it isn't what
generates the lean sparing effect. High fat does, though the
obvious would point to a high-protein plan rather than a
medium-protein plan doing so. What's obvious isn't always true.
Though I don't know the underlying mechanism it's the high-fat
plans that are the most lean sparing.
 
D

Doug Freese

Guest
"adak" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> The muscular atrophy is relative to the amount of negative energy
> balance. Diet a little, and (other factors being equal), you'll lose a
> little muscle mass. Diet moderately, but continue it for a longer
> time,
> and you'll lose muscle slower, but longer. Diet more severely, and
> you'll lose muscle mass, severely.


The only way I'm accepting your atrophy argument is if the calories
reduced are only carbs. When glycogenesis is affected by insufficient
carbs then there will be some muscle loss. The following will not please
the low carbs folks but just a few words from a page.
-----------------------------
1. Low carb (ketogenic) diets deplete the healthy glycogen (the storage
form of glucose) stores in your muscles and liver. When you deplete
glycogen stores, you also dehydrate, often causing the scale to drop
significantly in the first week or two of the diet. This is usually
interpreted as fat loss when it's actually mostly from dehydration and
muscle loss. By the way, this is one of the reasons that low carb diets
are so popular at the moment - there is a quick initial, but deceptive
drop in scale weight.

Glycogenesis (formation of glycogen) occurs in the liver and muscles
when adequate quantities of carbohydrates are consumed - very little of
this happens on a low carb diet. Glycogenolysis (breakdown of glycogen)
occurs when glycogen is broken down to form glucose for use as fuel.

2. Depletion of muscle glycogen causes you to fatigue easily, and makes
exercise and movement uncomfortable. Research indicates that muscle
fatigue increases in almost direct proportion to the rate of depletion
of muscle glycogen. Bottom line is that you don't feel energetic and you
exercise and move less (often without realizing it) which is not good
for caloric expenditure and basal metabolic rate (metabolism).

3. Depletion of muscle glycogen leads to muscle atrophy (loss of
muscle). This happens because muscle glycogen (broken down to glucose)
is the fuel of choice for the muscle during movement. There is always a
fuel mix, but without muscle glycogen, the muscle fibers that contract,
even at rest to maintain muscle tone, contract less when glycogen is not
immediately available in the muscle. Depletion of muscle glycogen also
causes you to exercise and move less than normal which leads to muscle
loss and the inability to maintain adequate muscle tone.

Also, in the absence of adequate carbohydrate for fuel, the body
initially uses protein (muscle) and fat. the initial phase of muscle
depletion is rapid, caused by the use of easily accessed muscle protein
for direct metabolism or for conversion to glucose (gluconeogenesis) for
fuel. Eating excess protein does not prevent this because there is a
caloric deficit.

When insulin levels are chronically too low as they may be in very low
carb diets, catabolism (breakdown) of muscle protein increases, and
protein synthesis stops.

----------------------------------------------
> People who are already athletes, or people who do not suddenly take up
> a large amount of strength training, can NOT avoid muscle atropy while
> dieting.


And I politely contend not true unless carbs are severely restricted. I
would appreciate some published information and not simply a
restatement.

-DF
 
D

Doug Freese

Guest
"adak" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> What they say has NOTHING to do with the situation when fat folk are
> trying to lose body fat. It's not that the labs don't know about
> losing
> weight, it's just that they don't usually deal with overweight
> non-athletes. Their subjects are already quite muscular with little
> body fat.


Not true. Performance labs work with entire gamut of people. They don't
just work with elites to draw conclusions about the general population.
If there is a fault there tests are often shorter than what many would
like to see but there is always a financial side to testing. This does
not mean they won't throw Lance in a lab to measure the specifics of his
system

> When an average person loses weight, his muscles will decrease in
> size,
> despite anything he / she does to resist it. The muscle will be more
> prominent to the eye, because it is no longer covered by so much fat,


Because the fat and probably a lot of excess water was reduced not
muscle.

> it's outline is more distinct, and sometimes even the individual
> "heads" of the muscle (like the triceps' three heads), become
> visible -
> but it will actually be a somewhat smaller muscle.


You'll have to excuse me but if the bicep was cover in fat how the heck
can you tell what the muscle originally looked like? You getting a
little eerie on me.


> Doug, you don't need to believe me or anyone else. Try it for
> yourself.
> Get a close up of your biceps, before, and then one afterward, from
> the
> very same camera position and lens setting. And compare your strength
> before, and your strength afterward.


I can't use myself. I have been involved in endurance running for 20
years and my body weight and distribution have had little change other
than some aging and that's more in the V02 realm. I'm maybe 10% body fat
rather than 8 as some years back. I probably should do some extra light
weights but it doesn't interest me. I still shovel my own snow, rake my
own leaves, push my mower, takes steps rather than an elevator.

That aside I mentor a group of 20 runners per year and I have not
witnessed what you are suggesting, or if it is happening, we are in the
..01 range. So I'm saying the science that I read says it not true or if
true we would need a micrometer to measure, and my last 10 years of
mentoring runners from an anecdotal perspective also suggests something
else.



> If you, as an athlete, can keep all your muscle mass, despite the
> weight loss, just let the bodybuilding world know - you'll be the
> wonder of the 21st century. But don't be surprised if they don't
> believe it.


Please body builders are not the epitome of science with a lot myths
especially about the necessity of excess of protein. Let's just say I'm
skeptical at best. I prefer science that deals with all sports.

> For heaven's sake, don't let a minor thing like muscle atrophy (which
> may be both minor and temporary), stop you from losing excess body
> fat!
> That would just be very wrong.


I'm with you on this and why I raised this issue from the start. People
may misinterpret your suggested muscle loss( which is totally
unquantified) to wrong numbers when in fact, fat is their goal.

Until I see something other than your key strokes we will respectfully
agree to disagree.

-DF
 
D

Doug Freese

Guest
"cguttman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>> For heaven's sake, don't let a minor thing like muscle atrophy (which
>> may be both minor and temporary), stop you from losing excess body
>> fat!
>> That would just be very wrong.

>
> I am discussing this topic, because I want to find an optimal approach
> to lose weight while remaining with a lot of muscle.
>
>
> I am taking this seriously, because a vague answer is no answer for
> me. :)


Me too. There are two of looking for some cites especially with some
measurements. I still contend to eat balanced roughly 60% carbs even
off the protein and good fats and a pound or two a week of anticipated
weight loss is very reasonable. For many cutting junk carbs is the
easiest place to start. Unless you try to do this on a low carb diet you
will see increased muscles and less fat. Depending on how much iron you
are pushing(going for big macho torso) and how much fat you have, will
tell how much lighter you will get. I assuming you are weight lifting.
It's not uncommon for a less spectacular weight loss when swapping fat
for muscle. Your physical distribution will change and be healthier.
From the perspective of running, We do minimal weights if any, not
wanting to haul big muscles around.

-DF
 
S

Scott

Guest
Doug Freese <[email protected]> wrote:
> The following will not please
> the low carbs folks but just a few words from a page.

<snip>

Interesting. Where is this from?

--Scott