Carbo confusion

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Cwazee Yeti, Feb 6, 2004.

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  1. Pat wrote:
    >> Except, in other parts of the world, when you got up from that desk job, you'd have to walk to
    >> your bus/tram/tube/train stop, perhaps stand during your ride, and then walk from the stop to
    >> your home. You might stop at the store on the way, because many homes in Europe and especially
    >> Japan have small refrigerators, so that walk home might be weight-resistant. Meanwhile, the
    >> American counterpart gets in her car and drives home. She might walk 20 steps in total. Claire
    >> Petersky
    >
    >
    > Yes, some of what you say is true. BUT, it also depends upon how each country was developed. The
    > U.S., with a lot of space, was organized in a spread out manner (once you get past the old port
    > cities). For example, to get to the nearest store from my house, it is a distance of 4 miles.
    > Should I walk there and try to carry food home? That is one reason why we have larger
    > refrigerators ( and freezers too)! Also, your saying "she might walk 20 steps in total" is
    > ridiculous on the face of it. How do you think people get into those offices for that desk job?
    > You park out in the back of the building and walk in, that's how.
    >
    > Let's take your example at stopping at a store on the way home. Park your car in a huge lot and
    > walk into the store. Find the milk and eggs on the back wall of the huge store, walk all over the
    > store to find what you need to buy. 20 steps? Hah!
    >
    > I don't know why you used such a ridiculous example to make your point. You didn't make it.
    >
    > Pat in TX

    How about this one then. When I was a kid I spent a lot of time in Gainesville Fla. Several times I
    was picked up by the cops in the "daytime" because I was walking down a street. They wondered why
    and then drove me home. My simple explanation that I was on my way from point A to point B did not
    come across. Almost every time I was at a friends house and ready to go home his/her mom would
    insist on driving me even though it was only a couple of houses down t he street. This was in the
    sixties and it didn't have much to do with concern about me getting in trouble or anything. You just
    did *not walk* I was the only kid in town that walked to school. App 3 miles. There were kids living
    a block away being driven too school. My mom didn't wan't me to ride my bike in the traffic there
    because nobody at that time had seen a bike in traffic so I walked.

    --
    Perre

    You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.
     


  2. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:39:01 -0500, Top Sirloin
    <[email protected]> from The Leptin Cabal wrote:

    >On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:00:30 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:34:56 +0000 (UTC), Dan Cosley <[email protected]> from
    >>University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus wrote:
    >>
    >>>In article <[email protected]>, Art Harris wrote:
    >>>> Cwazee Yeti wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> There's been a lot of press over the last 2-years or so about these fix-it-all diet programs
    >>>>> (Atkins, South Beach, etc...) that are largely responsible for turning "carb" into a 4-letter
    >>>>> word.
    >>>>
    >>>> There was a news item today that said Atkins weighed over 250 lbs at the time of his death and
    >>>> had serious heart trouble.
    >>>
    >>>And Jim Fixx died of a heart attack while running. Your point?
    >>
    >>Fixx had a congenital heart defect. Atkins weighed 258 pounds while supposedly following his own
    >>diet, and the heart problems were attributed to a virus. Still, he did die from a fall, so, all we
    >>can say for sure is that he was obese and following his own diet.
    >
    >http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/02-10-2004/0002106789&EDATE=
    >
    >"Trager's own release this morning reads in part: "Due to water retention ... [Atkins] had a weight
    >that varied between 180 and 195. During his coma, as he deteriorated and his major organs failed,
    >fluid retention and bloating dramatically distorted his body and left him at 258 pounds at the time
    >of his death, a documented weight gain of over 60 pounds."
    >
    >He weighed 180 to 195 pounds while following his own diet, not 258.

    That's one doctor's claim. Others claim different. The story has two sides.

    --
    [email protected]
    Remove specifics and convert to ambiguities.
    1
     
  3. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:40:09 -0600, "Pat" <[email protected]> from wrote:

    >No, you didn't present it fairly. You left out the most import part of the story. Your credibility
    >just took a major nose dive.

    No, that's your opinion. I presented it fairly, but you don't think so because you want to defend
    the Atkins fad diet.

    >> The article notes that a doctor said when the six-foot Atkins entered the hospital after his
    >> fall, he weighed 195 pounds. That's a BMI of 26.4 -- overweight.
    >
    >And we all know that someone with a higher percentage of muscle can appear to be overweight when
    >the only test used is the BMI. Kevan, you disappoint me.

    That wasn't the case with Atkins. He was not more muscle than fat.

    >Well, at last the spin comes out. You think their tactics are "cool." But still you claim
    >"no spin."

    I presented both sides of the story form the news articles. If it was spun, it wasn't by me. We
    were talking about the news articles, anyway, which state there is a controvery regarding the
    actual facts.

    --
    [email protected]
    Remember those quiet evenings.
    120
     
  4. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:29:13 -0600, "Pat" <[email protected]> from wrote:

    >
    >> >No, it's a different way of eating. It requires discipline and education
    >and
    >> >thought. You should try it. Or at least know what it is you're bashing.
    >Pat
    >>
    >> I don't have to try it to know what it is. It's a fad diet, for sure, and
    >it's
    >> not a very healthy one, at that. All diets, not just low-carb, require
    >some
    >> discipline, education and thought.
    >Kevan
    >
    >Two things:
    >1. you don't know what it is you are bashing, but you go ahead and do it anyway. That is the sign
    > of a person who just wants to argue--anything at all--just to argue.

    I do know what it is. I've read the books, and I've studied outside literature, too. It's still
    a fad diet.
    >
    >2. You keep bringing "race" into topics that do not include a mention of it. Why? Why are you
    > obsessed with "race" to the point of seeing everything through that lens?

    I don't see any race in the quotes you cited above. In terms of obesity figures, the numbers speak
    for themselves: higher percentages of minorities than whites are obese. It's only a racial issue
    insofar as minorities for the most part still occupy the lower social classes in the U.S. due to the
    fact that they earn less than whites. Affluent, educated white folk have the lowest obesity rates. I
    cite the book "Fat Land" as a source for that.

    --
    [email protected]
    Look at the order in which you do things.
    102
     
  5. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:35:40 -0600, "Pat" <[email protected]> from wrote:

    >Yes, some of what you say is true. BUT, it also depends upon how each country was developed. The
    >U.S., with a lot of space, was organized in a spread out manner (once you get past the old port
    >cities). For example, to get to the nearest store from my house, it is a distance of 4 miles.
    >Should I walk there and try to carry food home? That is one reason why we have larger refrigerators
    >( and freezers too)!

    Russia and Asia are larger than the U.S. Why aren't they as obese?

    --
    [email protected]
    How would you have done it?
    35
     
  6. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:03:35 -0600, Kevan Smith
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    >I don't see any race in the quotes you cited above. In terms of obesity figures, the numbers speak
    >for themselves: higher percentages of minorities than whites are obese. It's only a racial issue
    >insofar as minorities for the most part still occupy the lower social classes in the U.S. due to
    >the fact that they earn less than whites. Affluent, educated white folk have the lowest obesity
    >rates. I cite the book "Fat Land" as a source for that.

    Accepting that your figures are accurate...Has there been any research as to the cause? Sickle-cell
    anemia, for example, is almost exclusive to one race, and is so because of genetic issues. Until a
    study is done, it's pointless to conjecture what the cause might be for racial obesity statistics.
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  7. W K

    W K Guest

    "Rick Onanian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:03:35 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >I don't see any race in the quotes you cited above. In terms of obesity
    figures,
    > >the numbers speak for themselves: higher percentages of minorities than
    whites
    > >are obese. It's only a racial issue insofar as minorities for the most
    part
    > >still occupy the lower social classes in the U.S. due to the fact that
    they earn
    > >less than whites. Affluent, educated white folk have the lowest obesity
    rates. I
    > >cite the book "Fat Land" as a source for that.
    >
    > Accepting that your figures are accurate...Has there been any research as to the cause? Sickle-
    > cell anemia, for example, is almost exclusive to one race, and is so because of genetic issues.
    > Until a study is done, it's pointless to conjecture what the cause might be for racial obesity
    > statistics.

    There is more genetic diversity in sub-saharan africa than in all other "races" throughout
    the world.

    It would also be notable if poor black people were thinner than poor white people.
     
  8. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Pat" <[email protected]> writes:

    > Also, your saying "she might walk 20 steps in total" is ridiculous on the face of it. How do you
    > think people get into those offices for that desk job? You park out in the back of the building
    > and walk in, that's how.

    That paltry amount of walking ain't a patch on what one does by being carless and getting around on
    public transit, which is more prominent in those cultures to which Claire alludes, than in North
    American culture.

    > Let's take your example at stopping at a store on the way home. Park your car in a huge lot and
    > walk into the store. Find the milk and eggs on the back wall of the huge store, walk all over the
    > store to find what you need to buy. 20 steps? Hah!

    Again, many Asian and European cultures require fresh, perishable ingredients in their cuisine
    (hence the lack of need for larger refrigerators). That necessitates more frequent shopping trips,
    which are quite often not made by private automobile.

    > I don't know why you used such a ridiculous example to make your point. You didn't make it.

    Here in North America we've got it made, but we've become victims of our own technology. We drive
    everywhere, sitting in luxurious, living room comfort on are lard butts. If we feel cold, we just
    turn up the thermostat on the wall instead of splitting & stacking another cord of firewood. We dump
    our laundry into machines that do all the hard work for us, and then walk away and leave the
    machinery to it. We've got electric can openers, electric toothbrushes, robotic lawn mowers -- heck,
    we don't even get up to change the channel on the TV anymore.

    Life is good.

    Maybe too good.

    Maybe someday we'll evolve into passive, rooted creatures like sea anemonies, or barnacles, or
    Marlon Brando.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  9. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:28:56 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email protected]> from The
    Esoteric c0wz Society wrote:

    >On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:03:35 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>I don't see any race in the quotes you cited above. In terms of obesity figures, the numbers speak
    >>for themselves: higher percentages of minorities than whites are obese. It's only a racial issue
    >>insofar as minorities for the most part still occupy the lower social classes in the U.S. due to
    >>the fact that they earn less than whites. Affluent, educated white folk have the lowest obesity
    >>rates. I cite the book "Fat Land" as a source for that.
    >
    >Accepting that your figures are accurate...Has there been any research as to the cause? Sickle-cell
    >anemia, for example, is almost exclusive to one race, and is so because of genetic issues. Until a
    >study is done, it's pointless to conjecture what the cause might be for racial obesity statistics.

    Stop thinking race for a moment. Think class. The highest rates of obesity in the U.S. are in the
    classes that are the least affluent. Those classes have an over representation of minorities; if,
    for example, blacks are 13 percent of the general population, they are a much higher percentage of
    the population living below the poverty line. However, there are poor whites, too, and they have
    higher obesity rates as well. The question to ask, it seems to me, is why are the poor more likely
    to be obese than the affluent? And, as you might expect, the answer is lifestyle. The wealthy have
    far greater access to more and better health care, education and fitness centers than the poor of
    any race. At the very least, I think we can begin to remedy this inequality by better educating
    everyone in primary schools about sound nutrition and the importance of exercise. It's not being
    done well enough now, because school systems are generally strapped for cash, especially schools in
    poor areas, and health and PE programs tend to get cut or scaled back first. It's a definite
    conundrum.
    --
    [email protected]
    Simple subtraction.
    8
     
  10. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    Tom Keats wrote:

    > I was shocked & horrified to discover that Janet Jackson has at least one human female breast.

    Don't be too sure...

    Matt O.
     
  11. "Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > Here in North America we've got it made, but we've become victims of our own technology. We drive
    > everywhere, sitting in luxurious, living room comfort on are lard butts. If we feel cold, we just
    > turn up the thermostat on the wall instead of splitting & stacking another cord of firewood. We
    > dump our laundry into machines that do all the hard work for us, and then walk away and leave the
    > machinery to it. We've got electric can openers, electric toothbrushes, robotic lawn mowers --
    > heck, we don't even get up to change the channel on the TV anymore.

    I read somewhere that TV remotes cause a certain amount of fuel to be consumed/greenhouse gases get
    generated. The calculation was based on: people don't get up to change the channel, therefore they
    are colder sitting on the sofa, therefore they keep their houses warmer.

    I don't remember the exact figures, but it sounded plausible.

    --
    Warm :- ) Regards,

    Claire Petersky
    Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato and .net for .com

    Home of the meditative cyclist:
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm

    New CD coming out this month! See: http://www.tiferet.net

    "To forgive is to set the prisoner free and then discover the prisoner
    was you."
     
  12. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    Claire Petersky wrote:

    > "Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >> Here in North America we've got it made, but we've become victims of our own technology. We drive
    >> everywhere, sitting in luxurious, living room comfort on are lard butts. If we feel cold, we just
    >> turn up the thermostat on the wall instead of splitting & stacking another cord of firewood. We
    >> dump our laundry into machines that do all the hard work for us, and then walk away and leave the
    >> machinery to it. We've got electric can openers, electric toothbrushes, robotic lawn mowers --
    >> heck, we don't even get up to change the channel on the TV anymore.
    >
    > I read somewhere that TV remotes cause a certain amount of fuel to be consumed/greenhouse gases
    > get generated. The calculation was based on: people don't get up to change the channel, therefore
    > they are colder sitting on the sofa, therefore they keep their houses warmer.
    >
    > I don't remember the exact figures, but it sounded plausible.

    It sounds plausible to me, too.

    But more significantly, the average American house is nearly twice the size it was 50 years ago,
    before the TV era. And instead of a couple of table lamps with 100W bulbs, each room has six halogen
    cans in the ceiling, plus mood lights around the perimeter. There's a TV blaring in every room, and
    an extra fridge in the garage for soft drinks. Instead of relatively efficient radiant heat, there's
    forced air, which has to fill each room from the peak of the cathedral ceiling downward. Do we use
    more energy than 50 years ago? Hell yeah.

    Matt O.
     
  13. On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:11:42 -0600, Kevan Smith
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > At the very least, I think we can begin to remedy this inequality by better educating everyone in
    > primary schools about sound nutrition and the importance of exercise. It's not being done well
    > enough now, because school systems are generally strapped for cash, especially schools in poor
    > areas, and health and PE programs tend to get cut or scaled back first. It's a definite conundrum.

    Not to mention that young kids in some poor areas can't safely play outside, so the parents lock
    them inside. This creates a total lack of understanding regarding the outdoors, exercise, and
    related topics. Kids that never get out also never develop any kind of respect for nature and other
    living things.

    My wife teaches 2nd grade at an inner city school. Gym class in her school is a tad more than 20
    minutes a week. She takes the kids outside as often as she can. Some of the kids are so out of
    shape, they can barely climb a flight of stairs. Of 23 kids, _2_ know how to ride a bicycle.

    Many of these kids never leave the couch in front of the TV when at home.

    Barry
     
  14. Top Sirloin

    Top Sirloin Guest

    On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:59:23 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

    >That's one doctor's claim. Others claim different. The story has two sides.

    The "others" have an agenda.

    Look at pictures of him right before he died - he didn't weigh 258.

    Jesus christ, why do I bother with you?

    --
    Scott Johnson "There is nothing, I think, more unfortunate than to have soft, chubby, fat-looking
    children who go to watch their school play basketball every Saturday and regard that as their week's
    exercise."
    - John F. Kennedy, 1962
     
  15. Top Sirloin

    Top Sirloin Guest

    On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:22:05 -0500, Top Sirloin
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:59:23 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>That's one doctor's claim. Others claim different. The story has two sides.
    >
    >The "others" have an agenda.
    >
    >Look at pictures of him right before he died - he didn't weigh 258.

    Here you go:

    http://www.thesoydailyclub.com/ExpoWest2003/AtkinsDrAtkins3.jpg

    --
    Scott Johnson "There is nothing, I think, more unfortunate than to have soft, chubby, fat-looking
    children who go to watch their school play basketball every Saturday and regard that as their week's
    exercise."
    - John F. Kennedy, 1962
     
  16. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:22:05 -0500, Top Sirloin
    <[email protected]> from The Leptin Cabal wrote:

    >On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:59:23 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>That's one doctor's claim. Others claim different. The story has two sides.
    >
    >The "others" have an agenda.

    And the Atkin's doctors don't have an agenda in keeping the multimillion dollar fad diet
    in business?

    --
    [email protected]
    Overtly resist change.
    112
     
  17. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:18:18 -0500, Top Sirloin
    <[email protected]> from The Leptin Cabal wrote:

    >On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:22:05 -0500, Top Sirloin <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:59:23 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>That's one doctor's claim. Others claim different. The story has two sides.
    >>
    >>The "others" have an agenda.
    >>
    >>Look at pictures of him right before he died - he didn't weigh 258.
    >
    >Here you go:
    >
    >http://www.thesoydailyclub.com/ExpoWest2003/AtkinsDrAtkins3.jpg

    He's draped in a suit. Can't really tell.

    --
    [email protected]
    Overtly resist change.
    112
     
  18. On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:28:56 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Until a study is done, it's pointless to conjecture what the cause might be for racial obesity
    >statistics.

    Diet and more diet. I've seen more than one study - obesity related ailments and illnesses were a
    major concern for Prudential, who ran our inner-city capitated health program in Baltimore. Because
    it was capitated, it was important to them to address hypertension, diabetes and related ailments as
    early as possible.

    If it isn't McDonalds, it is a southern-based diet that emphasizes the wrong food 'groups' (grease
    is its own group) - that's because many inner city poor, white and black, are two or three
    generations from a southern flight migration for jobs. That's also why whites and blacks come
    together in some of the southern states where they share a diet to kill for (so to speak).

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
     
  19. Top Sirloin

    Top Sirloin Guest

    On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:28:56 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:03:35 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>I don't see any race in the quotes you cited above. In terms of obesity figures, the numbers speak
    >>for themselves: higher percentages of minorities than whites are obese. It's only a racial issue
    >>insofar as minorities for the most part still occupy the lower social classes in the U.S. due to
    >>the fact that they earn less than whites. Affluent, educated white folk have the lowest obesity
    >>rates. I cite the book "Fat Land" as a source for that.
    >
    >Accepting that your figures are accurate...Has there been any research as to the cause? Sickle-cell
    >anemia, for example, is almost exclusive to one race, and is so because of genetic issues. Until a
    >study is done, it's pointless to conjecture what the cause might be for racial obesity statistics.

    Here's the cause:

    Some people understand cause and effect; some don't.

    Those that do look beyond their immediate gratification and pursue strategies that further
    themselves towards goals, like a nice income and a healthy body. Those that don't spend every dollar
    from their dead-end job on trash and junk food.

    That said, are some people getting short-changed educationally, affecting their decisions? They sure
    are, and a good first step in eliminating that would be removing federal influence and wasteful fed
    $$ from the equation and returning control of the schools back to the communities they service.

    --
    Scott Johnson "Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are why they only open the
    top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen
     
  20. Top Sirloin

    Top Sirloin Guest

    On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:06:10 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

    >That wasn't the case with Atkins. He was not more muscle than fat.

    And you know his body fat % pre fall how?

    --
    Scott Johnson "Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are why they only open the
    top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen
     
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