carbon handlebars

sogood said:

As I said earlier, I acknowledge the fact that you tried to be scientific with the subject n=1 and non-blinded limitations. Under that, placebo remained a possibility. And as suggested by rayhuang, who knows if there was a subtle difference in the geometry of the CF bar you used that contributed to your comfort and perception?

That too is possible, but again is not something I could evaluate.

sogood said:

Whereas a CF bar may have a significantly greater benefit when paired with a steel fork. That's one scenario where a choice in CF stem/bar makes cost-efficiency sense.

I'd like to see this quantified.

And again your imposing your cost-efficiency "sense" on everyone else. What makes you think that is valid? What makes you think your "cost-efficiency sense" can somehow be applied to cyclists at large?

sogood said:

You don't know what "bling" is? Ever heard of the term "weight weenie" in your cycling career? :o

Oh, please: tell me how "bling" and "weight weenie" are related. I'm sure there must be some generalization that you can give that makes it all work for you.

alienator said:

You're right, but I've yet to find a comfortable pair. I have some Spenco Ironmans that just don't do that well. My thinish Specialized BG Pro gloves have a wee bit of gel, but certainly not as much as the Spencos. The BG Pros are the best I've ever worn.

Well, I don't have to rule out placebo effect for myself: if the placebo effect does the job, so be it. I am very skeptical that the placebo effect would persist for so long and for such long rides. I don't know that the placebo effect could reduce visible inflammation like I have noticed. And it's not as if I have an emotional investment in the bars: very little of them of shows, and what does show just looks like bars painted flat black.

Don't get me started on gloves, I'm already on the third pair this year. The first pair was old (15 yrs) and deserved a change. The second pair was mid-range priced but just stretched like crazy after 4 weeks, what a waste of money. Finally dawned on me that maybe there's value in paying a bit more and a pair of Roeckl it was... But please, don't turn this experience of mine to argue for CF bar. :p

I am glad that CF bar has worked for you well. But the fact remains that for the majority of riders without the kind of pre-existing condition you have, the cost-benefit just isn't there. And we haven't even talked about CF problems post crashes.

BTW, up to this point we've been pretty clinical in talking about CF bars. Just which model did you find the benefit on your wrist? Did you try CF bars of different models and brands in your selection process? Any experiences you care to share with the deep pocket brigade? 😉

alienator said:

Oh, please: tell me how "bling" and "weight weenie" are related. I'm sure there must be some generalization that you can give that makes it all work for you.

Did I say the two are related? Unfortunately I don't know them either as there's always someone who has more bling and is more of a weenie. So in comparison, I am no bling nor a weenie. 😄

CAMPYBOB said:

I wish you hadn't said that.

I feel another 300-word 'he blinded me with science' lecture coming on.

Just trying to create a circular thread... Please refer to page 1 of this thread. 😄

sogood said:

I am glad that CF bar has worked for you well. But the fact remains that for the majority of riders without the kind of pre-existing condition you have, the cost-benefit just isn't there. And we haven't even talked about CF problems post crashes.

Well, I think your "fact" is more of an assumption or presumption than fact. The fallout from "if it feels good, do it" can be a perfectly acceptable "expected return." Again, I think you're imposing your values on other cyclists. I have yet to see any data that says explicity what cost-benefit conditions are acceptable to cyclists.

sogood said:

BTW, up to this point we've been pretty clinical in talking about CF bars. Just which model did you find the benefit on your wrist? Did you try CF bars of different models and brands in your selection process? Any experiences you care to share with the deep pocket brigade? 😉

I tried Reynolds Ouzo Pro Anatomic bars. Maybe it was a lucky first stab. I knew what geometries didn't work for me, so from that I was able to narrow down the field pretty well. I'm about to try another, different set as part of a project of sorts.

As for CF problems post crash....well, this has been debated heatedly and heavily everywhere, with the net result seeming to be that CF bars do quite well, but like everything else, poorly made stuff does worse than the better made stuff. Being made of CF does not mean that something is fragile.

alienator said:

Well, I think your "fact" is more of an assumption or presumption than fact. The fallout from "if it feels good, do it" can be a perfectly acceptable "expected return." Again, I think you're imposing your values on other cyclists. I have yet to see any data that says explicity what cost-benefit conditions are acceptable to cyclists.

I tried Reynolds Ouzo Pro Anatomic bars. Maybe it was a lucky first stab. I knew what geometries didn't work for me, so from that I was able to narrow down the field pretty well. I'm about to try another, different set as part of a project of sorts.

As for CF problems post crash....well, this has been debated heatedly and heavily everywhere, with the net result seeming to be that CF bars do quite well, but like everything else, poorly made stuff does worse than the better made stuff. Being made of CF does not mean that something is fragile.

Let's dig a little deeper on the benefit side of the equation. I think we can say that by most cyclists' criteria, there are a number of common performance criteria that everyone tend to look at when shopping for a component eg. Handle bar (correct me if you have more). There are,
- Function (does it work as intended, including stiffness)
- Weight
- Reliability/Durability
- Fit/feel
- Bling/Look (feel good and feeds that placebo factor)
Although the weighting on the various parameter varies from cyclist to cyclist, but I think you would agree that vibration damping by CF is just a component of the "fit/feel" parameter. And then in terms of weight and stiffness, there's not much in it at the top end. Then all the other factors adds a little to CF, but certainly not in multiple folds.

Now if we add the price factor, with the CF bars at the top end often adding 2-4x the price of a top end alloy bar, it'll be hard to balance the equation in CF's favour, if at all. As we both agreed earlier, this balance shifts if you have some special needs (eg. Multiple wrist fractures), then obvious your weighting on fit/feel parameter probably would outweigh all the others.

As for the issue of post-crash. I would agree with you that CF bars are strong. This is not the point I would argue with you. The issue is more of it's failure mode, it's tendency to fail catastrophically at some point when there's an undiscovered nidus of damage from a severe impact. Yes, if one is willing to be careful with the product and examine it with care, then fine. Otherwise, it's a purchasing consideration that can not be dismissed.

Reynolds? I think you chose wisely... Hehe! 😎

sma said:

in calculating my future bike build, i've noticed that i can either spend a little extra money on carbon fiber handlebars vs. aluminum, or take that extra money and put it towards my wheels.

so, do carbon fiber handlebars offer any sort of vibration dampening over aluminum? (i.e. is it worth the extra money?)

sma, buy alloy handlebars (try lots though, fit is important) and put the extra money on to your wheels. Don't bother with CF unless you have some frequency problems with multiple fractures and you can't gel your blinged weenie with a placebo.

I think I surmised the last two pages spot on!

Tapeworm said:

Don't bother with CF unless you have some frequency problems with multiple fractures and you can't gel your blinged weenie with a placebo.

I think I surmised the last two pages spot on!

Uh oh...another theory. That should draw a 400-word rebuttal and perhaps even a terse, "Weenie? I don't know what the hell that is.".

At this point I'm going to throw caution, failure modes and value calculations to the wind and recommend the OP just go out and buy the most expensive damned carbon fibre bars, stem and toilet paper holder he can find.

You can never have enough bling on your bike or in your bathroom.

With all new techonolgy it comes down to percieved value.

New tech usually costs a lot, so its up to the marketing departments to convience customers they need to spend the extra to get the best percieved benefits.
If you have the spare money, and feel the benefits are worth the extra, then buy away.
But lets face it, 10 years ago top pros were riding steel frames, with steel seat posts and handle bars. They rode 10 of thousands of kilometers a year, and were happy with thier equipment. Technology has progessed to the point where even mid range bikes are as light and shift/stop as well as those from the early 90s, so in theory there is plenty of speed and durability for 90% of us out there.

But if you can justify spending more and feel you get a benefit theres no reason why you shouldn't be proud of what you ride and enjoy owning a high tech machine. Even its you slowing the bike, down not the lack carbon fibre slowing you down.

OK. Both sogood and alienator have great points. I think you could basically sum it up by saying that buying carbon fibre handlebars comes down to the individual. If they want/need it or if it genuinely makes them more comfortable on a bike then they have good reason to buy it. If they have alot of money and like the look, or even if they just like the look, then they can get them. People who look for value, stiffness, weight and other things could go for alloy. Neither has any right to tell the other what to buy, it is purely their decision.

If it were me, I'd go alloy and get a good pair of knicks. But if you have all the knicks you need, go for the bar. If you put it towards buying a set of wheels, that is a great idea too. If you do get a carbon bar, get a nice FULL carbon one, like a K Wing or ITM K Sword. They look nooice.

Since we're on the topic of carbon handle bars, any one have experience with ITM Millenium Carbon bars for road bikes?

Sogood,

1. Your posts clearly indicate that you do not know what you're talking about, and are just spewing sophmoric internet myths.(i.e. gloves dampening vibration, "catastrophic" failures), mixed with general BS terms.

2. CF bars are, by every measure, better. Period.

If you can't afford them, ok, but your arguments have no merit to those of us who have used both.

BTW: ally bars snap too. It's all catastrophic. Think.

I use Procarbon bars, also sold as Winwood and Token, they weigh just as much as ally bars, they are much stiffer for sprinting/out-of-saddle, yet do not resonate vibration, they are much more ergonomic on the tops and they allow my Campy cables to be buried. ~$125.
They replaced my cracked 3TTT alloy bars.

The Evil Twin said:

2. CF bars are, by every measure, better. Period.

Please explain some of the measures you indicate. As of today, I am using Deda Newton bars and stem. they are incredibly stiff, reputed, comfortable and look good. I don't think they are overly light, but thats not why I got them. I think it would be possible to damp vibrations using an under-tape gel wrap, like Fiziks. Oh, yeah, the bar and stem cost $75 AUD for the pair, brand new.

bobbyOCR said:

Please explain some of the measures you indicate. As of today, I am using Deda Newton bars and stem. they are incredibly stiff, reputed, comfortable and look good. I don't think they are overly light, but thats not why I got them. I think it would be possible to damp vibrations using an under-tape gel wrap, like Fiziks. Oh, yeah, the bar and stem cost $75 AUD for the pair, brand new.

What he probably means is that if the CF bars are designed correctly, they'll be lighter and at least as strong as aluminum bars. Of course, there are plenty of bars that aren't made correctly.

If you want to see the apex of CF bar technology, look at the Zipp's SL bars and Schmolke's bars: they give up nothing in stength and stiffness. They're certainly no less likely to fail than aluminum bars of similar weight.

Evil Twin is right about Al bar failures in crashes. They tend to not fail nicely.

Cheap is fine if that's important to you and the bar/stem combo works for you; however it's a mistake to think that there's an aluminum bar out there for everyone. Everyone used to--and still do to some extent--wax philosophic about how wonderful the ol' Cinelli (and similar bars) were in the 80's, 70's, 60's. Well, iffin that were the case, then we'd all still be using bars shaped just like 'em, but the fact is it's not true. As much as marketeers want to push new products with no real benefits, luddites and others resistant to change refuse to let go of the old stuff. Neither position makes the new stuff nor the old stuff inherently bad or good.

The Evil Twin said:

I use Procarbon bars, also sold as Winwood and Token, they weigh just as much as ally bars, they are much stiffer for sprinting/out-of-saddle, yet do not resonate vibration, they are much more ergonomic on the tops and they allow my Campy cables to be buried. ~$125.

Really? I am not aware of any material in the universe that does not resonate nor has a resonant frequency. I am amazed that you've discovered that holy material in a Token carbon handlebar on your bike. You really should talk to your local physicist pronto!

As for your "much stiffer" for sprinting/out-of-saddle argument, I have yet to see many tour or track sprint riders use CF bars. Or maybe you've been comparing to some cheap alloy bars that you got from a two bob shop that's next door to Token in Taichung.

As for being able to hide the Campag double cable, Ok, you have a point. Nice bling! But I suspect you are deficient in your wrapping technique. The pro mechanics can manage it, even I can with my Campag equipped bike. I don't know what's your difficulty? :eek:

sogood said:

Really? I am not aware of any material in the universe that does not resonate nor has a resonant frequency. I am amazed that you've discovered that holy material in a Token carbon handlebar on your bike. You really should talk to your local physicist pronto!

As for your "much stiffer" for sprinting/out-of-saddle argument, I have yet to see many tour or track sprint riders use CF bars. Or maybe you've been comparing to some cheap alloy bars that you got from a two bob shop that's next door to Token in Taichung.

As for being able to hide the Campag double cable, Ok, you have a point. Nice bling! But I suspect you are deficient in your wrapping technique. The pro mechanics can manage it, even I can with my Campag equipped bike. I don't know what's your difficulty? :eek:

You're going to argue an engineering or scientific point when you don't even understand the theories? But FWIW, you're right: solids have harmonics.

However your "tour riders or track pros don't use CF bars much" argument is meritless on its face. Completely. There are still "tour riders" and "tour mechanics" who believe that modern tubulars have to be cured for years. Pros and pro mechanics are just as guilty as anyone else of subscribing to mythological [censored]. And you must be completely blind, because there are CF bars on the track with pros and on the road with pro riders. And there will be more to come. To say that isn't the case is a perfect example of wishful thinking....blind, uninformed wishful thinking. Pros might be more reluctant to switch since they might be suspicious of new things, worried that the new thing won't hold up like the old thing, but that says nothing about differences between new things and old things: it only speaks to the lack of technological knowledge of a lot of people.

The only advantage alloy bars have over well made CF bars is that alloy bars are cheaper. Full stop.

alienator said:

The only advantage alloy bars have over well made CF bars is that alloy bars are cheaper. Full stop.

Thank you Alienator. That's all I need to hear from you. And without overwhelming technical advantages in CF bars when compared with quality alloy bars, the overwhelming price advantage of alloy bars predominate the cost-benefit ratio equation. Thank you, thank you for agreeing! 😉 😄 😄

sogood said:

Thank you Alienator. That's all I need to hear from you. And without overwhelming technical advantages in CF bars when compared with quality alloy bars, the overwhelming price advantage of alloy bars predominate the cost-benefit ratio equation. Thank you, thank you for agreeing! 😉 😄 😄

Uh-huh. Right.

alienator said:

Uh-huh. Right.

Of course, when the price of CF comes down from its current bling/supply-demand mark-up, we can then re-assess the situation in a different light. 🙄

OK, Sogood. Easton EC90 track. They are used by, last time I checked, the aussie national team. And even after those, track sprinters would choose steel bars, which are stiffer again. The only pitfall of this is that they weigh a whopping 320g. Better than 500-700g steel bars though.

I agree with you Alienator that well designed carbon handlebars surpass aluminium in every way, pretty much. Maybe excluding the whole overtightening cracking thing. I do also agree that carbon bars can be formed into shapes better suited to the natural form of the hands and wrists. The only other thing is the price of these well designed carbon bars. Alot of people who have found no alloy bars which fit would have complete justification to spring for a carbon bar. I also do not think Deda Newton is in any way 'cheap'. They are a very well constructed, extremely well tested, good looking comfortable combination. I managed to find an excellent deal on OEM parts.

About your closing comment. They are not only cheaper, they are significantly cheaper. The schmolke bars are a masterpiece, with a pricetag to match. you can buy a very good set of alloy bars and have enough left over for a very good stem, saddle and bartape at least, then maybe a new set of tyres and a seatpost too. Or you could put that money into wheels, or cranks.