carbon seat stays - do they really make much difference?



darrenf

New Member
Jul 16, 2004
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0
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Hi,

I have been looking at aluminium frames and for various reasons, will probably be buying one soon.

I've never had anything other than steel and have decided that unless I ride an aluminum frame myself, I will never actually know if the ride is noticeably harsher etc. Some say it does. Some say that is rubbish and frame material barely makes a difference, saying it is the contact points and wheels/ tyres that give the bike either a smooth or harsh ride.

A few questions which I hope will help me come to my final decision:-

1. does anyone have any comments on swapping from steel to aluminium (preferably using same wheels etc), and any noticeable difference in ride which they put down to frame material?

2. Do carbon seat stays/ rear ends make much difference on aluminium frames. A similar question again really to anyone that has gone from alu to alu/carbon? Do the carbon bits make a difference compared to pure aluminium.

3. Can the type of aluminium make a difference. I am looking at scandium frames (deda sc610 or whatever its called) and I imagine that being pretty thin walled for aluminium, it is going to give a nicer ride than say 7000 series?
Again, any comments re direct experience of this would be great.

PS. I plan to use my current campag proton wheels or some new mavic cosmos wheels (both comfy, low profile wheels) if that makes a difference?

Thanks
 
darrenf <[email protected]> wrote:

: 1. does anyone have any comments on swapping from steel to aluminium
: (preferably using same wheels etc), and any noticeable difference in
: ride which they put down to frame material?

I've noticed far more difference between a plain gauge really cheap Al
frame (harsh ride) and a triple butted Easton Al frame (very nice ride)
than between a steel bike and the Easton one.

The main difference was that compared to my old 531c frame, both of
these frames were much stiffer around the BB. And I'm no heavy weight
sprinter.


: 2. Do carbon seat stays/ rear ends make much difference on aluminium

People I know that have them say yes. I've not ridden one myself.

: 3. Can the type of aluminium make a difference. I am looking at
: scandium frames (deda sc610 or whatever its called) and I imagine that
: being pretty thin walled for aluminium, it is going to give a nicer
: ride than say 7000 series?

See my comments above. Basically, yes.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
"Remember, there's no such thing as a nice pasta salad" -
Nigel Slater.
 
Thanks for the reply Arthur.

I suppose it comes down to quality of tubing more than material. I would hope that a frame built from deda sc610 would give a pretty compliant ride.

I was thinking that carbon seat stays might just be a bit of a gimmick in terms of damping. However, considering that I would not entertain riding an aluminium fork rather than a carbon one for those exact same reasons seems a bit contradictory.

The thing that worries me about carbon on the mainframe is the potential lifespan. I read somewhere that carbon forks should be replaced fairly regularly to avoid fatigue problems. Does the same apply to carbon rear ends/ stays and can that actually be done (replacing the carbon stays on a frame), or does the frame become obsolete?

How long/ how many miles should I expect an aluminium or alu/carbon frame to last before it becomes adviseable to replace it with a new one?

Is a pure aluminium frame actually any more durable/ longer life span than aluminium/ carbon combo?
 
darrenf wrote:
<snip>
> I was thinking that carbon seat stays might just be a bit of a

gimmick
> in terms of damping. However, considering that I would not entertain
> riding an aluminium fork rather than a carbon one for those exact

same
> reasons seems a bit contradictory.

<snip>

Hi there.

Emperor's new seat stays!

I'm sure that carbon rear-ends only make a difference to the marketing
department, whereas carbon forks do make a real difference to the ride
of a bike.

Front fork comfort is due to the vibration-absorbing properties of the
fork, which comes from the horizontal compliance. i.e. the fork bends
slightly back and forwards in response to the shocks transmitted by the
hub. Carbon materials are gonna help with this.

To get the same effect at the rear of the bike, then there would have
to be some sort of vertical compliance from the whole rear triangle. I
don't think you're going to get a significant amount of movement here
without seriously reducing the stiffness of the frame.

A nice long carbon seat pin (on a compact frame) would be a far better
bet for damping the (your) rear end, as this works the same way as the
front fork.

Of course, all that is just my opinion... I'm not some sort of
anti-carbon luddite, as I ride a full carbon frame/forks. It's just
that if you're going to drop serious money on a frame I'd rather invest
in technology, not marketing.

Cheers, Andy

ps Arthur - I don't think you're going to get an unbiased view from
someone who's chosen to spend circa £1000 on a new frame. Of course
they're going to tell you it makes a difference.
 
[email protected] wrote:

: ps Arthur - I don't think you're going to get an unbiased view from
: someone who's chosen to spend circa £1000 on a new frame. Of course
: they're going to tell you it makes a difference.

Very true. Of course, I'm completely unbaised about the virtues of
expensive Ti frames :)

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness
 
darrenf <[email protected]> wrote:

: The thing that worries me about carbon on the mainframe is the
: potential lifespan. I read somewhere that carbon forks should be
: replaced fairly regularly to avoid fatigue problems.

I'm not totally convinced that carbon forks need replacing more
often that every 10 years or so. But then, I won't ride carbon
steered forks or handlebars.

Carbon is wonderful, but clamping round a carbon tube isn't a
good use IMO. I know the bung in a carbon steerer should resist
the crushing force, but..

a) That relies on it being installed properly and
b) Handlebars and seat posts don't have anything to resist the crushing
force.

I don't want a bike that has to be built up with a torque wrench personally.
I find it telling that Trek, who are one of the more experienced with carbon
out there, make their top of the line fork with an Al steerer.

Rant over :)

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness
 
Very true. Of course, I'm completely unbaised about the virtues of
expensive Ti frames :)

As you mentioned Ti (for a change:D ), what do you reckon to these ti frames with carbon back ends?

If the purpose of sticking a carbon rear on an aluminium frame is (according to the marketeers?) to dampen the ride, what's the point on a ti frame?

A ti frame (according to marketeers) has the smoothest ride on the planet. Why complicate things by adding carbon/joins etc if ti has better damping properties and roughly the same weight?

Or does it just come down to cash? They can sell a frame with carbon bits for more?
 
darrenf <[email protected]> wrote:

: As you mentioned Ti (for a change:D ), what do you reckon to these ti
: frames with carbon back ends?

A complete waste of time?

The reason I want a Ti frame is to keep it simple and robust. A carbon
back end rather defeats the point. If I wanted that, I'd just get a Al/Carbon
frame instead.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness
 
A complete waste of time?

Thought so. I can't see the point of carbon with ti either.

Of course, all that is just my opinion... I'm not some sort of
anti-carbon luddite, as I ride a full carbon frame/forks. It's just
that if you're going to drop serious money on a frame I'd rather invest
in technology, not marketing.
Andy, I know you ride a carbon frame, but if you were going to buy an aluminium one, presumably you would go for the pure aluminium variety rather than alu/carbon mix?

Just out of curiosity, what was it made you go for full carbon (presumably not it's damping qualities compared to aluminium??)
 
in message <[email protected]>, Arthur Clune
('[email protected]') wrote:

> darrenf <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : As you mentioned Ti (for a change:D ), what do you reckon to these
> : ti frames with carbon back ends?
>
> A complete waste of time?
>
> The reason I want a Ti frame is to keep it simple and robust. A carbon
> back end rather defeats the point. If I wanted that, I'd just get a
> Al/Carbon frame instead.


Or get a carbon monocoque. Why have a frame made out of jointed tubes
when you can have one in all one piece, /and/ stronger and more
comfortable even than Ti?

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Human history becomes more and more a race between
;; education and catastrophe.
H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"
 
Simon Brooke said:
in message <[email protected]>, Arthur Clune
('[email protected]') wrote:

> darrenf <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : As you mentioned Ti (for a change:D ), what do you reckon to these
> : ti frames with carbon back ends?
>
> A complete waste of time?
>
> The reason I want a Ti frame is to keep it simple and robust. A carbon
> back end rather defeats the point. If I wanted that, I'd just get a
> Al/Carbon frame instead.


Or get a carbon monocoque. Why have a frame made out of jointed tubes
when you can have one in all one piece, /and/ stronger and more
comfortable even than Ti?

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Human history becomes more and more a race between
;; education and catastrophe.
H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"
Now youv'e opened a can of worms:)
 
Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:

: Or get a carbon monocoque.

I considered it but at the time Ti was cheaper. Even allowing
for that, I considered the general "bump worthyness" of Ti
to be better.

ie a carbon frame is very robust and strong in it's designed use
but I'm rather clumsy when shunting bikes around, in and out of
cars, planes, crashing etc and I thought Ti would survive that
better.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness
 

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