Carbon w/105 vs. Aluminum w/Ultegra

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by GT Fanatic, Aug 16, 2010.

  1. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Uhm, I understand CF construction, thanks. Why, I even knew the big secret about CF, that it's "hand laid". Please, name some of these bad frames that you know of, these frames that are so "flexible".
     


  2. GT Fanatic

    GT Fanatic New Member

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    I'm yet to run into a bicycle manufacturer who has a reputation of building crappy carbon frames. As with any product, there are going to be some mistakes. This happens with all types of material, regardless of the makeup.

    Now, I understand your point about there being a higher chance for human error, and I do agree with you, but at the same time, I'm sure there are strict inspection processes that each of these frames goes through before being handed out to the public. None of these companies want a lawsuit when someone gets injured because their frame was improperly manufactured.

    As for you, i have a better suggestion than him naming "bad frames that he knows of." Maybe you can answer a question. Why is it that no matter what thread you post in, you always wind up in an argument with somebody or some people? Your lack of social skills is daunting.

    You would find a reason to argue with somebody, even if they did agree with you...
     
  3. dhk2

    dhk2 Active Member

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    Guess we're all different. If I had the experience you did with Performance, I'd never buy another bike from them. If I experienced low quality and no customer support to get low price, and then had to go through major hassles you did, wasting my own time and money trying to get things right, that's no bargain at all to me. Performance bikes may look like bargains based on their specs and ad copy, but I'd gladly pay a little more for quality.
     
  4. GT Fanatic

    GT Fanatic New Member

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    We bought 2 other bikes from them and they don't have any problems. I can guarantee you they take a much bigger beating than that road bike.

    I won't say I haven't gotten any customer support. They've been very good about trying to right this situation. This is something that happened from the Schwinn factory, not one of their bike techs. This wasn't something that was Performance's fault. When bikes are shipped to the States, the main parts are already assembled and installed.
     
  5. sufiankane

    sufiankane New Member

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    Frames don't have to be 'flexible'. Carbon fibre that isn't laid up properly can be incredibly stiff, but have little fatigue resistance. Composites can fail by a huge number of mechanisms, such as wicking, fibre pullout, void generation or crack propagation (one of the main reasons why when CF has splintered, it cannot be repaired, the cracks too big). Things don't fail by gradually getting more and more flexible, and then fail. They usually get slightly more flexible, and just snap in half, especially since carbon fibre is VERY brittle.

    During CF construction, if sheets are laid up wrong, you can get stress concentrators, where there will be higher stress. The composite will more likely fail here, examples are joints. These aren't easy to do professionally, but people do make good quality joints.

    Next time you have studied manufacturing or have worked in a carbon fibre moulding factory for a few years, I'll know that you know what you are talking about.

    You're absolutely right, but that's the reason all manufacturers provide warranties. If the frame fails, then you get it replaced in warranty because manufacturers understand that problems like this occur. Good manufacturers have five year frame warranties or more, because they are so confident in how their frames are made. Poorer manufacturers use two years, to hope the frame fails after two years and blame it on 'wear and tear'.
     
  6. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Wow. Thanks for the "lesson." For the record, if you've been reading the thread carefully, you'll note it was someone else that brought up "flexible" CF frames, and for the record, I never said being "flexible" was the only issue possible with CF, nor did I put any number nor any limit on the failure modes of CF. That's you trying to put words in my mouth. Alas, it is wrong to say that aluminum will always produce a more consistent quality. That's an opinion, and nothing more.

    No one suggested that there weren't occasionally errors that occur in manufacturing of such frames. Bad frames can come from any assembly line and be made of any material. There aren't, however, manufacturers pumping out "bad frames".

    Also, it looks like you need to update your knowledge base about splintered CF not being able to be repaired. Calfee does it and has been doing it for few years. Perhaps they only do it because they don't have your sage and expert counsel.
     
  7. sufiankane

    sufiankane New Member

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    No worries about the lesson, when you need educating again, I'll be sure to help. If you want to debate, PM me, I'm qualified, you're not. I'm not going to waste this whole thread on arguing with someone who hasn't done their research. I'm willing to debate not argue.

    This thread is about CF vs Alu, let's keep it that way. Ultimately, there are many different opinions on this, some speculative, some real, some anecdotal. At the end of the day, it's so minor what to choose as shown by this thread. There 'evidence' flying from all sorts of people, so choose a frame you're happy with and stick with that.
     
  8. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Wow! It's really cool that you were able to restate obvious things that have been said by people in virtually every bike forum on the internet! How did they get access to your special, members-only knowledge? Fortunately, a lot of those folks are able to read correctly. Maybe they can give you lessons.

    Alas, you're not even debating: you're insulting, which is something you started.
     
  9. dizzyd

    dizzyd New Member

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    Corrr blimey. These Cambridge University Manufacturing Engineers eh? Feck. Cycling for two weeks and flaming in forums with their "qualified" knowledge already. To be fair to the chap, Aluminium frames do offer the benefit of automated mass production at lower cost, which ensures consistent quality.

    However,
    The guy who started this thread wants to buy a bicycle, not a materials science of manufacturing degree...to that guy I say this:

    GO AND TRY OUT SOME BICYCLES! Buy the one that looks nice, feels nice and is in your price range, that will perform what you want it to perform. Trust me, its not the bicycle, its the rider. Whatever you are riding, as long as you are comfortable on it and willing to put in the hours, it will give you immense joy. And quit being a pussy. Cycling hurts. It gets uncomfortable, it gets harsh. Nobody every died because their aluminium frame or their 105 groupset wasn't performing as well as the rich ****ers with the carbon everything and the dura-ace finishing gear.
     
  10. GT Fanatic

    GT Fanatic New Member

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    Wow, for being such a newb, you have a lot of nerve coming on to a forum and throwing your "knowledge" around, and calling people pussies. Who the Hell do you think you are?

    Let me educate you, slick. This thread has nothing to do with comfort on a bicycle. Perhaps, you should pull your head out of your ass and read the thread before running your mouth.

    Secondly, if you had spent $1200 on a bike, I'm sure you'd want it working right, would you not? Yeah, that's what I thought.
     
  11. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Circle gets the square (obscure game show reference). As has been said by many, ride what fits best, rides best, and appeals to you the most. How something rides is dependent on frame design, construction, and QC.....and to a big extent, how much air is in the tires. Aluminum frames can ride just as well as other frames.

    Of course, how something works mechanically is dependent on whether the mechanics or the rider, if he's wrenching for himself, are idiots or not. Let's see: how long does it take to diagnose shifting issues with a rear derailleur? Hmmm.....check limits and cable tension......check to make sure the cassette is mounted properly with any needed spacers......check to see if RD hanger is straight....check cables for binding, excess friction, cable condition.....Wow. That took all of about an hour.
     
  12. GT Fanatic

    GT Fanatic New Member

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    Exactly. Rear derailleurs aren't exactly rocket science. There are 2 limit screws, and 2 barrel adjusters; one on the shifter, and one on the derailleur.

    I did exactly what you mentioned, time and time again. I spent 3-4 hours out there one day fine-tuning, and things were still screwing up. Then, as it turns out, it was something that was going on inside the frame, which could've been anybody's guess. I lived to learn and fight another day. If there's a next time this happens, then I'll know to look for it. If the derailleur cables were externally routed, obviously this problem would have been very simple to diagnose.

    After that whole debacle, while I certainly wouldn't consider myself a pro, I will make the claim that I'm capable of adjusting my own rear derailleur. Despite the issues not being discovered until later, I still learned how a rear derailleur works, so it was all for a good cause from that standpoint.
     
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