Carbon Wheel Question?
- Thread starter CoachMitch
- Start date
Came across this snippet on the Boyd Wheels website:
A radial spoke cannot transfer torque from the hub to the rim. On a regular front wheel, it’s sort of along for the ride, so radial laced spokes are fine for a front wheel.
On the rear wheel you are putting a lot of torque to the hub and this has to transfer to the rim to get the wheel to spin. By crossing the spokes on both sides of the wheel, we have up to 15% better torque transfer compared to a wheel that has radially laced spokes on the rear wheel. This makes for a better responding wheel that will accelerate faster, especially in sprinting or climbing situations.I have also read Fulcrums are laced the way they are for additional stiffness (not lateral, but radial stiffness) on the rear wheel.
The reason my Zipp101's likely felt as if they accelerated like a wet noodle is not only that they ran 20 of the thinnest spokes available on the rear wheel, but the drive side spokes were also radially laced. Zipp claimed this gave them another mm or so to extend the hub flange out supposedly increasing the lateral stiffness of the wheel and wheel strength but did ZILCH to assist the transfer of torque to the rim.
Up to 15%... my legs felt it. The rims on the 101's may have sliced nicely through the wind, but they were just along for the ride. They are not a sprinters wheel set.
CoachMitch, please don't let my airing of grievances dissuade you. With my lousy FTP, sprinting's all I got.
Happy Festivus
You got that right about getting beyond Cat5 as tantamount to ordeal by fire. A few years ago I remember race #10 being the most nervous start of them all, it was like the final flight of the Memphis Belle. A teammate of mine said "you know it's going to be harder to podium in the 4's why not milk it for awhile?" NO FARKIN' WAY!
Was doing some looking about the web on the Michelin Pro4 SC tires (that blue sidewall would really look smashing with my new blue LizardSkin wrap) and came across this info at Slowtwitch:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Things_that_Roll/Tires/Michelin_Pro4_Review_3748.html
As far as going from the 21c Zipp Tangente to a 23c GP4000s it appears we are loosing about 10-12W (In Crr terms that's ~1mph). And the aero-ness of the narrower tire may make up for it when truly alone in the wind especially if we are going moi caliente, but in a pack wind is going to have a varying effect on required power production from all angles, including those inducing the greatest yaw. No matter where we find ourselves however, i.e. solo in a TT, pulling the train during the final 1K, or buried deep within the pack, Crr is going to remain constant. Eating away at available power every minute we spend on the bike.
I wouldn't push any of these ST findings as dogma, but interesting nonetheless.
Meh...I've been on Pro 4 Service Course tires for two seasons. They're as 'fast' as anything I've run with those funny bead things that go over those weird things on the rim.
I'm still getting used to not using glue to hold them on. Weird, yo.
Pretty decent wear, good grip, almost as flat-resistant as my favorites in that category, Vredestein Fortezza TriComps. I like their ride and 'feel' and I recommend Pro 4's...for the 2 cents that advice is worth.
All this talk of 23 Mike Mike vs. 25 Mike Mike, deep rim sections...screw it! Just go for the bling. Buy the **** with the awesome decals! If you think you're fast...you're gonna be fast. And I'm still of the opinion that 4's and 3's are just as squirrely as any pack of 5's. They just crash faster.
Yeah...not dogma, Pinarello or otherwise!
I'm still getting used to not using glue to hold them on. Weird, yo.
Pretty decent wear, good grip, almost as flat-resistant as my favorites in that category, Vredestein Fortezza TriComps. I like their ride and 'feel' and I recommend Pro 4's...for the 2 cents that advice is worth.
All this talk of 23 Mike Mike vs. 25 Mike Mike, deep rim sections...screw it! Just go for the bling. Buy the **** with the awesome decals! If you think you're fast...you're gonna be fast. And I'm still of the opinion that 4's and 3's are just as squirrely as any pack of 5's. They just crash faster.
Yeah...not dogma, Pinarello or otherwise!
Awesome decals are definitely faster, and so is anything red. Glad to hear the positive feedback on the Pro4's, I've been considering a pair for Battenkill. The running joke is that their paved roads are worse than the dirt ones.
The 4's still crash a bunch, but it's less squirrely with noticeably less yoyo, so your legs are fresher when you munch asphalt.
The 4's still crash a bunch, but it's less squirrely with noticeably less yoyo, so your legs are fresher when you munch asphalt.
How much lighter are the carbon wheels compared to your current wheels?
How much will it cost to save that weight (if there is any weight savings)?
Could you lose the same amount of weight elsewhere for less cost? Say, from your midsection? Or, by purchasing a pair of lightweight QR skewers?
Could you purchase a new pair of tires to save some weight? $100 spent rather than $1K or $2K on new wheels?
And yes, people will spend tons of money on hype/status/bling with zero ROI.
My bet is that 24 lb, $400 bikesdirect wellington 3.0's, if fitted and adjusted properly, would perform just as well as these $5K to $13K high end bikes.
Cycling is one of these weird hobbies, like high end audio, where people believe that ultra-expensive equipment yields minute, if subtle performance increases, without a shred of evidence to back up their faith.
As cycling enthusiasts, we need to be a bit more discerning and demanding: we need to see actual, tangible evidence of performance gains before we shell out more cash.
Cycling is one of the few sports that has something that can measure subtle differences - a power meter. Most people in the know in other sports would kill to have that type of data and if there's one piece of kit (other than a good pair of shorts, shoes and helmet) a racer should have it's a power meter.
After that, items of importance that need a 'subjective' answer become few and far between. Simple but important questions can be answered with a bit of careful testing. Not only is it a fantastic training tool it's also a great testing device and probably the ultimate training diary...
Weight - not massively important. Aero, especially on the flat lands of Florida, ignore it at your own peril. The rider is the biggest cause of drag - put priority on sorting out your position. Helmet, clothing, bar and saddle position. You'll find that you think your position is something that's finely tuned to the nearest millimeter but you can muck around with it a fair bit in training with not a massive detriment to power but a noticeable increase in speed.
Aerodynamic drag is the biggest factor in limiting speed. There are very few things a rider can do that make a significant difference in combating drag aside from finding a rider specific compromise between an aerodynamic position and ride comfort.
Once that issue is sorted, there is almost nothing else that can help a rider gain a significant advantage in pack riding in a crit race. Bladed spokes, aero helmet, aero frame tubes, slightly lighter tires or wheels give anywhere from a slight to negligible advantage, take your choice.
It really does come down to being more fit and gaining a tactical advantage as the race proceeds.
I still say a bikesdirect wellington 3.0 is just as fast as a $6K or $10K race bike. Aside from placebo effect, of course.
OP, save your money. No need to drop $3K on wheels. They won't make you any faster, and their braking performance is noticeably worse.
Once that issue is sorted, there is almost nothing else that can help a rider gain a significant advantage in pack riding in a crit race. Bladed spokes, aero helmet, aero frame tubes, slightly lighter tires or wheels give anywhere from a slight to negligible advantage, take your choice.
It really does come down to being more fit and gaining a tactical advantage as the race proceeds.
I still say a bikesdirect wellington 3.0 is just as fast as a $6K or $10K race bike. Aside from placebo effect, of course.
OP, save your money. No need to drop $3K on wheels. They won't make you any faster, and their braking performance is noticeably worse.
I'm assuming you know all this from your mantle of trophies won on that $400 Wellington? Kidding.
Wind tunnel data and power data on rollers measured against speed is hardly without a shred but I'll agree though that unless one is riding in the high Alps weight savings are overrated, and fitness (and race tactics in a road race) are the key elements in overall performance. The biggest ROI aside from fitness and rider position will come from wheel depth/shape, and the Crr of a tire/tube combo.
But sometimes I like to shell out my cash just because something looks pretty
I have to agree with new _rider...AS LONG AS you're hiding in the pack aero gains are marginal. Outside of having 40-50 flying locomotives pulling hard in front of you those 50 MM wheels would be cost-effective IMO and living in Florida, I might just be riding a TT rig full time.
What's sad is that the weight difference between alu wheels that cost a few hundred bucks and carbon wheels that cost several thousands of dollars is tiny.
What's even more sad is that the (very slightly heavier) aluminum wheels will be FASTER on downhills and at cruising speeds since they maintain their momentum more readily than lighter wheels. Of course, the speed advantage will be tiny, measurable only in fractions of a second over the course of an hour under completely unrealistic experimental situations (wind tunnel).
In other words, the performance differences in any real world situation is exactly ZERO. Of course, if you want to pay an extra $2500 for zero advantage of any kind, be my guest.
Of course, if you want to spend your money on something that does increase performance, try blood doping.
I'm biased, however, since I've always thought of bicycle racing as completely stupid.
What's even more sad is that the (very slightly heavier) aluminum wheels will be FASTER on downhills and at cruising speeds since they maintain their momentum more readily than lighter wheels. Of course, the speed advantage will be tiny, measurable only in fractions of a second over the course of an hour under completely unrealistic experimental situations (wind tunnel).
In other words, the performance differences in any real world situation is exactly ZERO. Of course, if you want to pay an extra $2500 for zero advantage of any kind, be my guest.
Of course, if you want to spend your money on something that does increase performance, try blood doping.
I'm biased, however, since I've always thought of bicycle racing as completely stupid.
Aerodynamic wheels will ALWAYS be faster than lighter wheels, even if under certain circumstances it's only fractions. But even some weekend warrior Cat5 could benefit from minus 40-120 seconds over a 40k(25mi) TT, a very real and measurable benefit from deep section rims (vs. the 3 seconds saved over the same distance from "lighter" rims). That could be the difference between 1st and 2nd place.
But if some coconut thinks that $$ spent will trump a proper training plan, good luck. Yer gonna get yer doors blown off by the dude with box section alloy rims who actually puts in the miles, and regularly sees 90%+ maxHR during workouts on his monitor.
But if some coconut thinks that $$ spent will trump a proper training plan, good luck. Yer gonna get yer doors blown off by the dude with box section alloy rims who actually puts in the miles, and regularly sees 90%+ maxHR during workouts on his monitor.
I just got a set of Carbon wheels (Enve 3.4). Came from/still use a set of Open Pro's. The difference is very noticeable. When I get the bike up to speed, staying there is a lot easier. Braking? I'll take the OP's for down the side of a twisty mountain, but anything close to flat and straight - I'll be on the carbons.
Speaking of sound, you better invest in a box of earplugs if you want carbon wheels. They're about as quiet as a locomotive:
I had a Zipp 340 front wheel before and the whoosh, whoosh sound isn't that loud at all. Just a humming sound. Now, with a 60mm carbon rim (Hed Stinger 60), the whoosh sound is loud. Is so loud that when I was sprinting up a hill, joggers about 50 ft up the road could hear me coming.
the rims are amplifying road vibration. I've had folks call "car back!" as I've trained with my Hed's.
Put a disc wheel on. Those darned things make so much noise you can hardly hear yourself think when you're riding. The typical TT wheelset of a trispoke front (most are HED's, mine's a Nimble) and disc rear can be deafening.
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/why-deep-secton-carbon-wheel-makes-such-loud-noise-53214.html
No you don't need carbon to race on, you can find good aluminum rims to race on and be almost as light, and if you go with a 40 to 50mm aero rim and you'll be aerodynamic which trumps weight in racing, and you don't have to spend a lot! Soul makes a 40mm deep AL wheel that cost only $560 for the pair and weighs just 1,700 grams for the set which is light for a 40mm deep rim. See this for more info on the Soul: http://2013.bikesoul.com/s4/ Those Soul wheels are the best deal I could find and they get rave reviews. Just a thought that's all.
If going for an aero rim it's important to check the width. If you enjoy running 23 and/or 25mm tires, according to a white paper done by Specialized the aero benefit on a 19mm wide rim is almost completely negated due to the turbulence created by the lightbulb effect on a 25. If running a 19mm wide aero rim, to extract any benefit a narrower 21-22mm tire will be needed. If running a 23mm or wider tire on a 19mm wide rim it makes more sense to stick with a low profile rim, unless of course riding cyclocross where a deeper rim doesn't get bogged down in the mud as easily.
imo if investing the money why not just go to the newer paradigm of 23mm wide rims. Wider tires spread over a wider rim feel better, handle better, and supposedly roll faster. One doesn't have to go with one of the uber expensive all carbon models. Something like HED's Jet5 express offers almost all the benefits at a lower price - alloy breaking surface, 23mm wide rim, aero performance, a weight range that wont hold anyone back, and at a relatively competitive price (for the product received). There are others. After riding the last couple years on wider rims, I'll never go back to the old 19mm's.
imo if investing the money why not just go to the newer paradigm of 23mm wide rims. Wider tires spread over a wider rim feel better, handle better, and supposedly roll faster. One doesn't have to go with one of the uber expensive all carbon models. Something like HED's Jet5 express offers almost all the benefits at a lower price - alloy breaking surface, 23mm wide rim, aero performance, a weight range that wont hold anyone back, and at a relatively competitive price (for the product received). There are others. After riding the last couple years on wider rims, I'll never go back to the old 19mm's.
