Cargo Rack on MTB - Considerations?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Michael J. Klein, Jun 25, 2004.

  1. I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?

    Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    ---------------------------------------------
     
    Tags:


  2. Michael J. Klein wrote:
    > I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    > He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    > for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    > nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    > levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    > rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    > hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    > mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?
    >
    > Michael J. Klein [email protected]


    You need to condider a new LBS.
     
  3. On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:18:08 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Michael J. Klein wrote:
    >> I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    >> He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    >> for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    >> nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    >> levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    >> rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    >> hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    >> mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?
    >>
    >> Michael J. Klein [email protected]

    >
    >You need to condider a new LBS.


    Indeed. I remember the first time I walked into my local asking for
    real full-coverage fenders. A guy looked at me blankly as if to say
    "why would you want them?"

    They are my local though; other shops are inconveniently far away.
    The wrenches are better than the guys up front.

    -Luigi
     
  4. On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:47:50 -0400, Luigi de Guzman
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:18:08 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Michael J. Klein wrote:
    >>> I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    >>> He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    >>> for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    >>> nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    >>> levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    >>> rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    >>> hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    >>> mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?
    >>>
    >>> Michael J. Klein [email protected]

    >>
    >>You need to condider a new LBS.

    >
    >Indeed. I remember the first time I walked into my local asking for
    >real full-coverage fenders. A guy looked at me blankly as if to say
    >"why would you want them?"


    Normally, I don't resent such statements when asked by professional
    people who know more than I do about a particular subject. However,
    after I introduce myself and appraise them of my expertise in a
    particular area (if appliciable), I then get miffed if they insist
    upon not selling me what I want.

    >They are my local though; other shops are inconveniently far away.
    >The wrenches are better than the guys up front.


    Probably not a good idea to piss them off, me thinks.

    Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    ---------------------------------------------
     
  5. Doki

    Doki Guest

    Michael J. Klein wrote:
    > I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    > He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    > for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    > nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    > levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    > rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    > hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    > mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?


    I fitted a rear rack to my Giant MTB the other week. It rattles a bit over
    bumps, but I most likely need to tighten up a couple of nuts and perhaps
    stick some blutac or tape on some of the fixings that resonate a bit. The
    only problem I have with it is that you can't fit the rear rack on and a
    crud catcher. So you get a muddy / wet back. The rack could perhaps foul the
    wheel if you fitted it very close and had massive tyres on, and collected
    lots of mud. But you'd have to fit it really stupidly to get it to foul
    before the frame.

    You could always fit a seatpost rack, but they won't hold as much weight.
     
  6. >> I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.

    My wife and I have had Blackburn Mtn Bike Racks on our Specialized Hardrock Mtn
    Bikes for several years. We even, at times, mount junior Arkel panniers to
    carry our stuff.

    The racks are extremely sturdy, do not rattle, and, IMHO, would interfere only
    with the hardest core type of mtn biking. I take my mtn bike on trails and
    such with absolutely no problem.

    Assuming you have the necessary braze-ons, etc., I think your dealer is
    off-base.

    Good luck.


    http://members.aol.com/foxcondorsrvtns
    (Colorado rental condo)

    http://members.aol.com/dnvrfox
    (Family Web Page)
     
  7. curt

    curt Guest

    Bought one from Nashbar. It was pretty cheap, holds up to 40 lbs and
    certainly doesn't rattle. I see these racks all over town on mtb's, not
    sure what the big deal is? Sure they add weight, but so what if you need
    some utility. It was a great investment.

    Curt


    "Michael J. Klein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    > He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    > for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    > nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    > levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    > rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    > hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    > mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?
    >
    > Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    > Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    > Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    > ---------------------------------------------
     
  8. http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm
    Go to SJS Cycles website and look under Carriers and Racks, Rack
    fitting kits.

    You will get examples of the different parts used to attach rear racks
    to your mountain bike or any bike. I am assuming you don't have
    eyelets at the rear dropouts and braze ons at the top of the
    seatstays. If you have eyelets at the rear dropouts and braze ons at
    the top of the seat stays, they you can just bolt on any rack you
    want. My Raleigh M600 from 1999 has the required eyelets and braze
    ons for a rear rack. I have a Blackburn Expedition rack on my
    mountain bike.

    So your bike shop guy was lying when he said nobody puts a rear rack
    on a mountain bike. Please ask him to explain how a rear rack will
    limit the bike's use for off roading.


    Michael J. Klein <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    > He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    > for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    > nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    > levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    > rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    > hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    > mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?
    >
    > Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    > Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    > Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    > ---------------------------------------------
     
  9. On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:04:16 +0800, Michael J. Klein
    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    <[email protected]>:

    >I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    >He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    >for off-roading.


    He lied. I have a rack on my MTB and so do lots of other people I
    know. The Yukon is a hartail, right? The rack will not be in the
    way. Only if you wanted to hang right over the rear wheel in extreme
    descents would it be an issue - and in that case you'd probably be on
    the wrong bike anyway ;-)

    >The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    >nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    >levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    >rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    >hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    >mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?


    None, probably. I had to use P-clips on my MTB because the rack I had
    spare didn't have a brake bridge mounting bar, you can get three-point
    mounting racks which bolt to the brake bridge if you don't have
    braze-ons. You might have trouble if you don't have eyelets, but I've
    never seen a bike which didn't have at least one set of eyelets.
    Sometimes you get single eyelets and have to share the bolt with the
    mudguards [fenders] and sometimes you get double eyelets.

    As to looking dorky, well, I'm not qualified to comment. We have
    seven active bikes in the family (4 MTBs, one tourer, a recumbent and
    a triplet) and every one is fitted with a rack.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  10. On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:03:46 +0100, "Doki" <[email protected]>
    wrote in message <[email protected]>:

    >The
    >only problem I have with it is that you can't fit the rear rack on and a
    >crud catcher. So you get a muddy / wet back.


    Unless you fit full mudguards or use a rack with a solid platform :)

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  11. Ron Hardin

    Ron Hardin Guest

    Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
    > Unless you fit full mudguards or use a rack with a solid platform :)


    Incidentally I've had good luck reviving a 20-year-old ESGE (? German) mudguard
    by sawing off the trailing damaged portion, and mounting the rest OVER the brake to get
    wheel clearance.

    You have to reduce the length to clear the wheel in any case, unless you can
    mount it exactly at right angles relative to its displacement.

    Over it is the rear rack and milk crate, so upwards-flying debris is caught
    in any case, but this eliminates back-of-leg spray.

    Added plus : it no longer traps snow, so it no longer drops snow on the chain, and
    so the freewheel no longer clogs with the produced ice (no-clog owing to the increased
    wheel clearance).
    --
    Ron Hardin
    [email protected]

    On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
     
  12. Zoot Katz

    Zoot Katz Guest

  13. Peter Cole

    Peter Cole Guest

    "Michael J. Klein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    > He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    > for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    > nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    > levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    > rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    > hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    > mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?


    Nah, most MTB's have the fittings for racks. Fenders are probably not a good
    idea if you go off-road (they tend to pick up sticks and crumple and jam), but
    racks are fine. If you're going to stick to the streets, I'd get fenders, rack
    and folding pannier. MTB's make great bad-road bikes -- try installing your
    own accessories, then you won't have to suffer random opinions...
     
  14. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    Michael J. Klein <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    >He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    >for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    >nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    >levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    >rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    >hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    >mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?


    There's nothing "retarded" about a bike being used in a utilitarian
    manner - few things are actually as "unretarded".

    FWIW, I've been using a Delta seatpost mount rack for a couple years,
    and find it works very, very well. It places the rack a couple inches
    higher than it would be ideally, but that's a very small price to pay
    for the ability to "de-rack" the bike in seconds should I want to take
    it off-road in anger. The rack will handle up to 25 pounds (11.5kg),
    which is more than I'd ever be likely to put on it.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  15. On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:03:46 +0100, "Doki" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >
    >
    >Michael J. Klein wrote:
    >> I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    >> He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    >> for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    >> nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    >> levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    >> rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    >> hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    >> mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?

    >
    >I fitted a rear rack to my Giant MTB the other week. It rattles a bit over
    >bumps, but I most likely need to tighten up a couple of nuts and perhaps
    >stick some blutac or tape on some of the fixings that resonate a bit. The
    >only problem I have with it is that you can't fit the rear rack on and a
    >crud catcher. So you get a muddy / wet back. The rack could perhaps foul the
    >wheel if you fitted it very close and had massive tyres on, and collected
    >lots of mud. But you'd have to fit it really stupidly to get it to foul
    >before the frame.
    >
    >You could always fit a seatpost rack, but they won't hold as much weight.


    Thanks for the info. The rack just bolted on using the existing
    mounting holes, right?

    Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    ---------------------------------------------
     
  16. On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 12:56:56 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:03:46 +0100, <[email protected]>,
    >"Doki" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>The
    >>only problem I have with it is that you can't fit the rear rack on and a
    >>crud catcher. So you get a muddy / wet back.

    >
    >The most common solution seen around here is the Rear Deflector Shield
    >
    >http://www.ratail.com/rear.html


    I'm learning a lot, thanks!

    Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    ---------------------------------------------
     
  17. On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:02:58 GMT, "curt" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Bought one from Nashbar. It was pretty cheap, holds up to 40 lbs and
    >certainly doesn't rattle. I see these racks all over town on mtb's, not
    >sure what the big deal is? Sure they add weight, but so what if you need
    >some utility. It was a great investment.
    >
    >Curt
    >
    >
    >"Michael J. Klein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >> I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    >> He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    >> for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    >> nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    >> levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    >> rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    >> hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    >> mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?
    >>
    >> Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    >> Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    >> Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    >> ---------------------------------------------


    That's how I look at it too Curt. I'm now just trying to find the one
    that I want.

    Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    ---------------------------------------------
     
  18. On 26 Jun 2004 08:36:40 -0700, [email protected] (Russell
    Seaton) wrote:

    >http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm
    >Go to SJS Cycles website and look under Carriers and Racks, Rack
    >fitting kits.


    OK, thanks.

    >You will get examples of the different parts used to attach rear racks
    >to your mountain bike or any bike. I am assuming you don't have
    >eyelets at the rear dropouts and braze ons at the top of the
    >seatstays. If you have eyelets at the rear dropouts and braze ons at
    >the top of the seat stays, they you can just bolt on any rack you
    >want. My Raleigh M600 from 1999 has the required eyelets and braze
    >ons for a rear rack. I have a Blackburn Expedition rack on my
    >mountain bike.


    I do have eyelets and bosses for mounting. The bosses on the seat
    stays have rubber plugs to keep them clean. I'm very happy to see
    that, in fact.

    >So your bike shop guy was lying when he said nobody puts a rear rack
    >on a mountain bike. Please ask him to explain how a rear rack will
    >limit the bike's use for off roading.


    Lying is a pretty harsh statement, don't you think? Remember, this is
    not the United States. He said that no one "in Taiwan" puts racks on
    MTBs. He has racks and he could have sold me one right there if I had
    asked. I just asked for his advice, that's all.

    In Taiwan appearances are everything. Let me give you 3 examples.
    You will see people walking around with lanyards and their company ID
    cards hanging from their necks. They never take them off. Its
    because if you have a company ID card, it means you are
    "professional." On TV, you never, ever see lav mics. You only see
    big fat ball microphones, handheld no matter what the hosts are doing.
    Microphones like that mean "host" and if you don't have one you aren't
    "important" enough to have one. So, you'll see people on stage who
    are holding big fat ball mics for the sole purpose of placing them in
    front of their mouth when they laugh at the host's jokes.

    The last example is the most telling. You can go to any swimming pool
    and find dozens of fit men, wearing speedos, with racer's swim caps
    and goggles. None of them can swim. In fact, there isn't a pool on
    Taiwan deeper than 1.5 meters due to the national fear of drowning
    (yeah, I know, its an island). These guys can't swim, but they all
    need to look like they can. MTB owners don't ride off-road, but they
    need to look like they can. This is also why everyone here always
    says "hallow" to me when I ride by. They want me to think they can
    speak English.

    Appearances are everything in Taiwan. Foreigners wear helmets when
    riding on the street, but not Taiwanese. A foreigner might put a rack
    on a MTB (this one will) but Taiwanese don't put racks on their
    mountain bikes because they probably belive that it doesn't look
    off-roadworthy. Since I live here, and we were talking in Chinese,
    he told me the story from the Taiwanese point of view. This same guy
    replaced my BB after it went bad in 4 days, on the same afternoon when
    I showed up unannounced. He is a good guy.

    The limitations of the rack for off roading have been talked about in
    this thread already.

    >Michael J. Klein <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >> I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    >> He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    >> for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    >> nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    >> levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    >> rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    >> hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    >> mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?
    >>
    >> Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    >> Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    >> Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    >> ---------------------------------------------


    Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    ---------------------------------------------
     
  19. On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:16:06 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:04:16 +0800, Michael J. Klein
    ><[email protected]> wrote in message
    ><[email protected]>:
    >
    >>I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    >>He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    >>for off-roading.

    >
    >He lied.


    Please read my response to this accusation in another reply post.

    >I have a rack on my MTB and so do lots of other people I
    >know. The Yukon is a hartail, right? The rack will not be in the


    Yes it is.

    >way. Only if you wanted to hang right over the rear wheel in extreme
    >descents would it be an issue - and in that case you'd probably be on
    >the wrong bike anyway ;-)


    Not only that, but it would be the wrong rider in the wrong decade!

    >>The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    >>nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    >>levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    >>rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    >>hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    >>mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?

    >
    >None, probably. I had to use P-clips on my MTB because the rack I had
    >spare didn't have a brake bridge mounting bar, you can get three-point
    >mounting racks which bolt to the brake bridge if you don't have
    >braze-ons. You might have trouble if you don't have eyelets, but I've
    >never seen a bike which didn't have at least one set of eyelets.
    >Sometimes you get single eyelets and have to share the bolt with the
    >mudguards [fenders] and sometimes you get double eyelets.


    On the left side are eyelets for the disc brake option (which I do not
    have) and then underneath that is both an eyelet (threaded boss,
    really) and an actual slotted eyelet beneath that on either side).
    The seat stays have capped threades bosses. It looks like a rack
    should just bolt right on.

    >As to looking dorky, well, I'm not qualified to comment. We have


    I already look dorky just standing around doing nothing. Add a bike,
    and it gets worse. Like I care! lol

    >seven active bikes in the family (4 MTBs, one tourer, a recumbent and
    >a triplet) and every one is fitted with a rack.


    Its a very practical accessory if you use your bike for anything other
    than just riding a course.

    Thanks Guy.


    Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    ---------------------------------------------
     
  20. On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:25:57 GMT, "Peter Cole"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Michael J. Klein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >> I asked my LBS about putting a rear cargo rack on my new Yukon MTB.
    >> He said that nobody does that, and it would limit my use of the bike
    >> for off-roading. The reason that I have an MTB for street use is the
    >> nature of the roads here. Often they are un-improved and differing
    >> levels which I feel could be more easily negotiated by a mountain bike
    >> rather than a road/comfort bike. Given that I don't use it for actual
    >> hardcore off-roading, are there any other considerations about
    >> mounting a rear cargo rack on my MTB, other than it looking retarded?

    >
    >Nah, most MTB's have the fittings for racks. Fenders are probably not a good
    >idea if you go off-road (they tend to pick up sticks and crumple and jam), but
    >racks are fine. If you're going to stick to the streets, I'd get fenders, rack


    I was thinking about the fenders becoming necessary at some point.

    >and folding pannier. MTB's make great bad-road bikes -- try installing your


    That's where my head was - bad road negotiation!

    >own accessories, then you won't have to suffer random opinions...


    I still have to suffer from all the opinons on the NG though! lol

    I've learned a lot from the people who frequent USENET, that's for
    sure.

    Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    ---------------------------------------------
     
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