Cassettes and conundrums - Pete Biggs?

[Simon Brooke]

I'm trying to upgrade my old road bike, on the cheap. Keyword: cheap.

Reasons: I want to get rid of the six-speed freewheel, I want to have only
one standard for road wheels so I can swap wheels between the old bike and
the new one (and possibly a crosser if I get one). In the long run this
means going ten speed, but I'm trying not to make a giant leap;
specifically, I'm trying not to spend too much money on it since I have a
lot of other projects which are money-hungry.

So: I have cold-set the rear out to 130mm. I have a spare back wheel with a
Campag ten speed compatible hub (OK, it's a Mavic Ksyrium). I have
friction shifters, which are OK for now. Yes, of course Ergos would be
nicer, but... The front mech currently on the bike is a 2004 Campag
Record, the rear mech is a circa 1992 Sachs Huret which works OK but
probably won't cope with the extra width of a modern cassette, so it
probably has to go. I have two serviceable chainsets, both 52/42, one
ancient Sakae designed for six speed and, currently on the bike, a circa
mid-90s Shimano 105 BioPace courtesy of Nigel Cliffe of this parish and
probably intended for eight speed. I can't run ten speed chain on either
of them.

I have been offered a huge collection of assorted Campag cogs and spacers
of various ages to assemble a cassette from. So, to start at the
beginning, it looks as if Campag 8 speed cogs won't fit on a Campag 10
speed hub (or else I'm doing something wrong) but 9 speed will. Can I
assemble a cassette out of 9 speed cogs which will work with a chain which
will run on a chainset designed for 8 speed? If so, what thickness spacers
do I need so that the chain won't jam? As I'm using friction shifters
indexing is not an issue.

I'm going to have to replace the rear mech anyway (or, if I don't /have/
to, I'm going to). If I get a modern Campag rear mech, presumably it will
still work with an 8speed chain, or is the pantograph cage now too narrow?

If the worst comes to the worst I can just upgrade everything to Veloce
for
10sp 9sp
rear mech £ 38 £ 38
chainset £ 60 £ 60
cassette £ 40 £ 19
chain £ 22 £ 13
£160 £130

(maybe less if I shop around on eBay) but that's a lot more than I want to
spend just now.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; better than your average performing pineapple

 

[Pete Biggs]

Hi Simon,

Simon Brooke wrote:
> I'm trying to upgrade my old road bike, on the cheap. Keyword: cheap.
>
> Reasons: I want to get rid of the six-speed freewheel, I want to have
> only one standard for road wheels so I can swap wheels between the
> old bike and the new one (and possibly a crosser if I get one). In
> the long run this means going ten speed, but I'm trying not to make a
> giant leap; specifically, I'm trying not to spend too much money on
> it since I have a lot of other projects which are money-hungry.
>
> So: I have cold-set the rear out to 130mm. I have a spare back wheel
> with a Campag ten speed compatible hub (OK, it's a Mavic Ksyrium). I
> have friction shifters, which are OK for now. Yes, of course Ergos
> would be nicer, but... The front mech currently on the bike is a 2004
> Campag Record, the rear mech is a circa 1992 Sachs Huret which works
> OK but probably won't cope with the extra width of a modern cassette,
> so it probably has to go. I have two serviceable chainsets, both
> 52/42, one ancient Sakae designed for six speed and, currently on the
> bike, a circa mid-90s Shimano 105 BioPace courtesy of Nigel Cliffe of
> this parish and probably intended for eight speed. I can't run ten
> speed chain on either of them.
>
> I have been offered a huge collection of assorted Campag cogs and
> spacers of various ages to assemble a cassette from. So, to start at
> the beginning, it looks as if Campag 8 speed cogs won't fit on a
> Campag 10 speed hub (or else I'm doing something wrong)

Should be possible to get them on (though the short spline tabs end up
ruining the alloy freehub body). Maybe they're /not/ Campag 8sp?

> but 9 speed
> will. Can I assemble a cassette out of 9 speed cogs which will work
> with a chain which will run on a chainset designed for 8 speed? If
> so, what thickness spacers do I need so that the chain won't jam? As
> I'm using friction shifters indexing is not an issue.

Certainly could have eight 9-speed cogs setup like that. I have a go at the
sums later. Not enough room for nine, though, without too much noise, I
bet.

The alternative is to use a 9-speed chain. One worked fine on an 8-speed
campag chainset for me. Internal width of 8 & 9sp chains is about the same;
overall width isn't highly critical for chainsets.

A new SRAM chain is less likely to skip on used sprockets than a new Campag
one, by the way.

> I'm going to have to replace the rear mech anyway (or, if I don't
> /have/ to, I'm going to). If I get a modern Campag rear mech,
> presumably it will still work with an 8speed chain, or is the
> pantograph cage now too narrow?

There may be a bit of noise unless increasing the jockey wheel spacing with
different/extra washers.

> If the worst comes to the worst I can just upgrade everything to
> Veloce for
> 10sp 9sp
> rear mech £ 38 £ 38
> chainset £ 60 £ 60
> cassette £ 40 £ 19
> chain £ 22 £ 13
> £160 £130
>
> (maybe less if I shop around on eBay) but that's a lot more than I
> want to spend just now.

Xenon mech @ £22 will be fine if your old one's not good enough. Doubt
you'll need a new chainset.

Best of luck.

~PB

 

[Pete Biggs]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> Can I assemble a cassette out of 9 speed cogs which will work
> with a chain which will run on a chainset designed for 8 speed? If
> so, what thickness spacers do I need so that the chain won't jam? As
> I'm using friction shifters indexing is not an issue.

According to www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#spacing , With 9-speed cogs,
3.25mm would give you Campag 8-speed spacing.

A bit thicker still should make friction shifting easier still.

Campag 9sp 2.8mm + Marchisio 0.5mm* = 3.3mm. ~1mm padding required behind
largest sprocket with these.

* For Marchisio and other spacers, try Parker International, Pearson Cycles,
Oldham Cycle Centre, Highpath Engineering, LBS?

A rummage through my draws reveals: A set of six 3.5mm alloy spacers + one
0.5mm spacer. (The 0.5mm is to fatten the top cog's built-on spacer).
The lot is yours for £4 posted. Might just be ideal!

~PB p at biggs dot tc

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Pete Biggs
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Hi Simon,
>
> Simon Brooke wrote:
>> I'm trying to upgrade my old road bike, on the cheap. Keyword: cheap.
>>
>> Reasons: I want to get rid of the six-speed freewheel, I want to have
>> only one standard for road wheels so I can swap wheels between the
>> old bike and the new one (and possibly a crosser if I get one). In
>> the long run this means going ten speed, but I'm trying not to make a
>> giant leap; specifically, I'm trying not to spend too much money on
>> it since I have a lot of other projects which are money-hungry.
>>
>> So: I have cold-set the rear out to 130mm. I have a spare back wheel
>> with a Campag ten speed compatible hub (OK, it's a Mavic Ksyrium). I
>> have friction shifters, which are OK for now. Yes, of course Ergos
>> would be nicer, but... The front mech currently on the bike is a 2004
>> Campag Record, the rear mech is a circa 1992 Sachs Huret which works
>> OK but probably won't cope with the extra width of a modern cassette,
>> so it probably has to go. I have two serviceable chainsets, both
>> 52/42, one ancient Sakae designed for six speed and, currently on the
>> bike, a circa mid-90s Shimano 105 BioPace courtesy of Nigel Cliffe of
>> this parish and probably intended for eight speed. I can't run ten
>> speed chain on either of them.
>>
>> I have been offered a huge collection of assorted Campag cogs and
>> spacers of various ages to assemble a cassette from. So, to start at
>> the beginning, it looks as if Campag 8 speed cogs won't fit on a
>> Campag 10 speed hub (or else I'm doing something wrong)
>
> Should be possible to get them on (though the short spline tabs end up
> ruining the alloy freehub body). Maybe they're /not/ Campag 8sp?
>
>> but 9 speed
>> will. Can I assemble a cassette out of 9 speed cogs which will work
>> with a chain which will run on a chainset designed for 8 speed? If
>> so, what thickness spacers do I need so that the chain won't jam? As
>> I'm using friction shifters indexing is not an issue.
>
> Certainly could have eight 9-speed cogs setup like that. I have a go at
> the
> sums later. Not enough room for nine, though, without too much noise, I
> bet.

That's my guess, yes. The issue is what spacers to use, since a nine speed
cog + an eight speed spacer add up to only 4.85mm, not the 5mm used by 8
speed cassettes. However, your suggestion of using nine-speed chain solves
that.

> The alternative is to use a 9-speed chain. One worked fine on an 8-speed
> campag chainset for me. Internal width of 8 & 9sp chains is about the
> same; overall width isn't highly critical for chainsets.

Good thought. I'll take the chainset into the LBS and try it with a
nine-speed.

> A new SRAM chain is less likely to skip on used sprockets than a new
> Campag one, by the way.

Thanks for that.

>> I'm going to have to replace the rear mech anyway (or, if I don't
>> /have/ to, I'm going to). If I get a modern Campag rear mech,
>> presumably it will still work with an 8speed chain, or is the
>> pantograph cage now too narrow?
>
> There may be a bit of noise unless increasing the jockey wheel spacing
> with different/extra washers.
>
>> If the worst comes to the worst I can just upgrade everything to
>> Veloce for
>> 10sp 9sp
>> rear mech £ 38 £ 38
>> chainset £ 60 £ 60
>> cassette £ 40 £ 19
>> chain £ 22 £ 13
>> £160 £130
>>
>> (maybe less if I shop around on eBay) but that's a lot more than I
>> want to spend just now.
>
> Xenon mech @ £22 will be fine if your old one's not good enough. Doubt
> you'll need a new chainset.

The old one probably /is/ good enough, but... it offends mine eye. It's
silly, I grew up with Huret mechs and shifters, but I was always aware
they weren't very good and I always wanted Campag. The rear mech is the
only part of the original drive train left on the bike. It's done 30000
miles and is still in OK nick, so it can't be such **** quality, but... it
offends mine eye.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

X-no-archive: No, I'm not *that* naive.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Pete Biggs
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>> Can I assemble a cassette out of 9 speed cogs which will work
>> with a chain which will run on a chainset designed for 8 speed? If
>> so, what thickness spacers do I need so that the chain won't jam? As
>> I'm using friction shifters indexing is not an issue.
>
> According to www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#spacing , With 9-speed cogs,
> 3.25mm would give you Campag 8-speed spacing.
>
> A bit thicker still should make friction shifting easier still.
>
> Campag 9sp 2.8mm + Marchisio 0.5mm* = 3.3mm. ~1mm padding required
> behind largest sprocket with these.

H'mmmm...

Putting what I've got together, I can get eight sprockets
26-23-21-19-17-15-14-13 onto the freehub body, using plastic spacers
between all except 14 and 13 where I've got a slim metal shim - seems
thinner than 0.5mm but it's the only thing I've got that looks right. With
that lot on it fits, but tightening up the lock collar leaves the
sprockets slightly loose so I need another about 1mm of shim. If I try to
add a 16 tooth between the 17 and the 15 I can't quite get the dogs on the
13 tooth to engage on the splines on the body. I /think/ what I've
probably got is 9 speed sprockets and 8 speed spacers.

In the tub there were Marchisio sprockets, sprockets stamped ST which
clearly aren't Campag pattern and I expect are Shimano, and two different
patterns of Campag sprockets (I was told 'there's 8 and 9 speed in there')
of which I've chosen only the ones with dogs matching the spline pattern
on my hub (so presumably 9 speed).

All the spacers apart from the little thin metal one are plastic; some look
as if they were originally amber, the rest look as if they were originally
black, and some of these have four clear circular marks on one side. I
can't by feel detect any difference in the thickness; I'll try to borrow a
micrometer later.

I've got a number of different sprockets in the 26, 23 and 21 tooth sizes -
the person who gave them to me is a firm devotee of close ratio cassettes
and tended not to use the bigger ones, so they're pristine. Particularly
in the 23 size I've got 4 different tooth offset versions (A-D, I think).
I've assembled my cassette with all 'A' sprockets - is this right? It
looks OK.

> * For Marchisio and other spacers, try Parker International, Pearson
> Cycles, Oldham Cycle Centre, Highpath Engineering, LBS?
>
> A rummage through my draws reveals: A set of six 3.5mm alloy spacers +
> one
> 0.5mm spacer. (The 0.5mm is to fatten the top cog's built-on spacer).
> The lot is yours for £4 posted. Might just be ideal!

I might just take you up on that but I'll do a bit more fiddling about
first.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Wannabe a Web designer?
<URL:http://userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/97dec/19971206.html>

 

[David Martin]

Simon Brooke wrote:
> Putting what I've got together, I can get eight sprockets
> 26-23-21-19-17-15-14-13 onto the freehub body, using plastic spacers
> between all except 14 and 13 where I've got a slim metal shim - seems
> thinner than 0.5mm but it's the only thing I've got that looks right.

Did you put a spacer behind the largest cog?

...d

 

[Pete Biggs]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> Putting what I've got together, I can get eight sprockets
> 26-23-21-19-17-15-14-13 onto the freehub body, using plastic spacers
> between all except 14 and 13 where I've got a slim metal shim - seems
> thinner than 0.5mm but it's the only thing I've got that looks right.
> With that lot on it fits, but tightening up the lock collar leaves the
> sprockets slightly loose so I need another about 1mm of shim.

I could send you a couple of 0.5 shims if needs be, FOC.

> If I
> try to add a 16 tooth between the 17 and the 15 I can't quite get the
> dogs on the 13 tooth to engage on the splines on the body.

Might be worth a go if they engage at all. Well-tightening the lockring
could press it all down enough to work. I did similar with a modified 9sp
cassette on an 8sp hub. Alarmingly, the top sprocket virtually just perched
on the top until the lockring was done up. It seemed OK in use, though
maybe not very sensible or safe! Clearance in the frame can be a problem as
well sometimes.

/snip
> I've got a number of different sprockets in the 26, 23 and 21 tooth
> sizes - the person who gave them to me is a firm devotee of close
> ratio cassettes and tended not to use the bigger ones, so they're
> pristine. Particularly in the 23 size I've got 4 different tooth
> offset versions (A-D, I think). I've assembled my cassette with all
> 'A' sprockets - is this right? It looks OK.

That's right for 26, 23, 21 & 19. Rest is not perfect because the 15A is
designed for a 16A neighbour, but probably no problem in practice.

Correct sequences are listed here:
www.campagnolo.com/pdf/spares07_B.pdf - page 84

~PB

 

[Pete Biggs]

I scribbled:
> That's right for 26, 23, 21 & 19. Rest is not perfect because the
> 15A is designed for a 16A neighbour, but probably no problem in
> practice.

....Especially with friction shifting. After all, sprockets in the old days
didn't have any ramps at all.

~PB

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, David
Martin ('[email protected]') wrote:

>
> Simon Brooke wrote:
>> Putting what I've got together, I can get eight sprockets
>> 26-23-21-19-17-15-14-13 onto the freehub body, using plastic spacers
>> between all except 14 and 13 where I've got a slim metal shim - seems
>> thinner than 0.5mm but it's the only thing I've got that looks right.
>
> Did you put a spacer behind the largest cog?

No, I didn't. Should I? I assumed that was not necessary.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; 'I think we should trust our president in every decision
;; that he makes and we should just support that'
;; Britney Spears of George W Bush, CNN 04:09:03

 

[Pete Biggs]

Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>,
> David Martin ('[email protected]') wrote:
>>
>> Simon Brooke wrote:
>>> Putting what I've got together, I can get eight sprockets
>>> 26-23-21-19-17-15-14-13 onto the freehub body, using plastic spacers
>>> between all except 14 and 13 where I've got a slim metal shim -
>>> seems thinner than 0.5mm but it's the only thing I've got that
>>> looks right.
>>
>> Did you put a spacer behind the largest cog?
>
> No, I didn't. Should I? I assumed that was not necessary.

Not normally necessary, but of course one would by handy for a too-thin
custom cassette if the lockring couldn't be done up enough to prevent
rattling otherwise. Could also slightly improve the chainline.

~PB

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Pete Biggs
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>> Putting what I've got together, I can get eight sprockets
>> 26-23-21-19-17-15-14-13 onto the freehub body, using plastic spacers
>> between all except 14 and 13 where I've got a slim metal shim - seems
>> thinner than 0.5mm but it's the only thing I've got that looks right.
>> With that lot on it fits, but tightening up the lock collar leaves the
>> sprockets slightly loose so I need another about 1mm of shim.
>
> I could send you a couple of 0.5 shims if needs be, FOC.

OK, having borrowed a micrometer and sorted out which were the 9 speed
spacers, I've now got a 9 speed cassette which looks good. Thanks for all
the help...

The downside is I've buggered the thread in the derailleur hanger, and
seeing it's integral (steel frame) I'll need to take it into the LBS to
get the thread recut. Bother.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
,/| _.--''^``-...___.._.,;
/, \'. _-' ,--,,,--'''
{ \ `_-'' ' /
`;;' ; ; ;
._..--'' ._,,, _..' .;.'
(,_....----''' (,..--''

 

[Tim Hall]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:56:06 +0100, Simon Brooke
<[email protected]> wrote:


>The downside is I've buggered the thread in the derailleur hanger, and
>seeing it's integral (steel frame) I'll need to take it into the LBS to
>get the thread recut. Bother.

How buggered? Can you put the bolt in from the inside face, IYSWIM,
to clear the threads?


Tim

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Tim Hall
('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:56:06 +0100, Simon Brooke
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>The downside is I've buggered the thread in the derailleur hanger, and
>>seeing it's integral (steel frame) I'll need to take it into the LBS to
>>get the thread recut. Bother.
>
> How buggered? Can you put the bolt in from the inside face, IYSWIM,
> to clear the threads?

Tried that, but it didn't work. Took it in to my LBS this morning where it
was cleaned out in two moments with the right tap, checked for squareness
and the frame checked for alignment... all for 'no charge'. So I bought a
nine speed Veloce mech off them for rather more than I'd have had to pay
Oldham, which squared things up.

I've just been out for a ride in the pissing rain, and it was a joy to
ride. Very crisp changes. I don't think I've ever ridden a friction shift
bike with good mechs before; I've assumed that indexed was better but I
think that must be because all the bikes with indexed systems which I've
ridden have had really good quality transmissions, whereas the friction
shift bikes I've ridden have mostly been fairly **** (I've ridden a lot of
miles on fairly **** bikes!). With good mechs, friction shifters work
really well.

As a matter of interest, what technically is the difference between a nine
speed Veloce rear mech and a ten speed one? If I later upgrade to ten
speed will I have to get a new mech?

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; ... exposing the violence incoherent in the system...

 

[Pete Biggs]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> As a matter of interest, what technically is the difference between a
> nine speed Veloce rear mech and a ten speed one? If I later upgrade
> to ten speed will I have to get a new mech?

No. The only difference between 10-speed and 2001+ 9-speed rear mechs is
the jockey wheel spacers. Geometry of pre 2001 9-speed was slightly
different -- not an issue for non-indexed shifting anyway.

~PB

 

[Alex]

Simon Brooke wrote:
> Tried that, but it didn't work. Took it in to my LBS this morning where it
> was cleaned out in two moments with the right tap, checked for squareness
> and the frame checked for alignment... all for 'no charge'. So I bought a
> nine speed Veloce mech off them for rather more than I'd have had to pay
> Oldham, which squared things up.

My LBS refuses to take money for all sorts of things, including a
valuation of the my bike for insewerance purposes during which Mr LBS
spent over 15 minutes on the phone trying to track down a price for my
frame. So I purchased a Brooks saddle cover (5 quid, 3 quid in Evans)
and a rear light (30% cheaper on wiggle).

-Alex