Cat 3 fun

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Warren, Aug 8, 2003.

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  1. Warren

    Warren Guest

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  2. >Subject: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected] Date: 8/8/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    >Message-id: <080820030906039745%[email protected]>
    >
    >In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
    >below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...
    >
    >http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_177.html
    >
    >http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_179.html
    >
    >http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_180.html
    >
    >
    >-WG

    So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't do those either? I'm not
    going to say too much more than that, since I don't want want to start sounding too much like Henry,
    even though he's generally right in his mockery of Masters racing.

    Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
    of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to a lack of talent or ability to train enough due
    to other demands in life; and 1s and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly
    competitive in the serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack
    of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow [email protected] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen
    www.sacgw.com
     
  3. >Subject: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected] Date: 8/8/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    >Message-id: <080820030906039745%[email protected]>
    >
    >In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
    >below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...
    >
    >http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_177.html
    >
    >http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_179.html
    >
    >http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_180.html
    >
    >
    >-WG

    So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't do those either? I'm not
    going to say too much more than that, since I don't want want to start sounding too much like Henry,
    even though he's generally right in his mockery of Masters racing.

    Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
    of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to a lack of talent or ability to train enough due
    to other demands in life; and 1s and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly
    competitive in the serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack
    of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow [email protected] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen
    www.sacgw.com
     
  4. Dashi Toshii

    Dashi Toshii Guest

    "Joshua Zlotlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >Subject: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected]
    > Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
    > of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to
    a
    > lack of talent or ability to train enough due to other demands in life;
    and 1s
    > and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly competitive in
    the
    > serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a
    pack
    > of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow

    If someone enjoys bike racing, what's it to you what their motivation is?

    Dashii
     
  5. Bryan Boldt

    Bryan Boldt Guest

    Weak reasoning.

    You imply the crash was due to bumps and nudges in the Cat 3 race, but it appears to be the solo
    rider in the prior photo (timpani_r_03_174.JPG) that went down first. That could happen anytime in
    any corner (case in point: checkout all the [doh!] TDF crashes this year, like stage 1 into Meaux,
    the wet ITT, and of course Beloki).

    Sure, if your group is riding slower you won't get as close to the limit. If that's your comfort
    level, fine. The only "safe" race is a hill climb, but even then you'll see guys touch wheels
    and go down.

    warren wrote:
    >
    > In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
    > below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...
    >
    > http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_177.html
    >
    > http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_179.html
    >
    > http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_180.html
    >
    > -WG
     
  6. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    >
    > >Subject: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected] Date: 8/8/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    > >Message-id: <080820030906039745%[email protected]>
    > >
    > >In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
    > >below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...
    > >
    > >http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_177.html
    > >
    > >http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_179.html
    > >
    > >http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_180.html
    > >
    > >
    > >-WG
    >
    > So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't do those either?

    For one, he is speaking of comparative risk (since he knows crashes occur in *every* division) -- so
    that "solves itself" as far which race one is "pushed to" regarding risk if they do intend to race.
    For me, if I thought the risks were too high in any division I'm elgible to race in, then I would
    simply not participate at all. That seems pretty simple for low level amateur.

    > I'm not going to say too much more than that, since I don't want want to start sounding too much
    > like Henry, even though he's generally right in his mockery of Masters racing.

    He isn't even close to being right. He's far closer to a moron when it comes to that. Not
    recognizing that isn't something you ought to wear on your sleeve. Another obeservation of the
    Masters 1/2/3 races is that they are most often the 2nd fastest or 2nd most competetive race
    (naturally under pro/1/2) of the race day. So if I were to pick two races to watch, those would be
    the two based on the speed and style I like to watch in a bike race. If I were to pick only one for
    watching, it would of course just be Pro/1/2.

    > Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
    > of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to a lack of talent or ability to train enough due
    > to other demands in life;...

    That was me, but you don't say why you think it is particularly important -- most riders regardless
    of category are not "talented enough," whatever that might mean (turn pro with a $0k contract?).
    Warren's point, I believe, is simply that masters have a bit less tolerance for going down than some
    23 yo Cat 3 (or 1/2/3/4/5 23 yo for that matter). You can decide if it is true, but most masters
    have more family and work responsibilities than most young men, and they've already done all the
    falling down they want to do. The opportunity cost of getting hurt is higher when your older (and
    not just for bike racers). In this way, older people have less tolerance for getting hurt.

    > ...and 1s and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly competitive...

    Some are, some aren't. Some "masters" win the Pro/1/2 races. Sometimes the same day they won the
    masters race. Winkel, for one, has done it. Not recently, because even he ages. The governing bodies
    speak out of both sides of their mouth when it comes to categorization. IOW, categorization system
    is theoretically non-age graded, but practically speaking it most certainly is not. You get the Cat
    X stamp and you get to keep it and hold it while you are 90 yo dying from pneumonia.

    > ... in the serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack of
    > mostly Cat 3s.

    I've suggested alternatives and variation in what race divisions are offered from week to week. It
    was not received well -- status quo seems to be the rule. People are resistant to change.
     
  7. Bryan Boldt wrote:
    > Weak reasoning.
    >
    > You imply the crash was due to bumps and nudges in the Cat 3 race, but it appears to be the solo
    > rider in the prior photo (timpani_r_03_174.JPG) that went down first.

    So, he had matching orange forks, the riderless crash bike had black forks.
    --
    Dominic Richens | [email protected] "If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying attention!"
     
  8. >Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: Bryan Boldt [email protected]om Date: 8/8/03 12:14 PM Pacific
    >Daylight Time Message-id: <3F33F69B.4846[email protected]>
    >
    >Weak reasoning.
    >
    >You imply the crash was due to bumps and nudges in the Cat 3 race, but it appears to be the solo
    >rider in the prior photo (timpani_r_03_174.JPG) that went down first. That could happen anytime in
    >any corner (case in point: checkout all the [doh!] TDF crashes this year, like stage 1 into Meaux,
    >the wet ITT, and of course Beloki).
    >
    >Sure, if your group is riding slower you won't get as close to the limit. If that's your comfort
    >level, fine. The only "safe" race is a hill climb, but even then you'll see guys touch wheels
    >and go down.
    >
    >warren wrote:
    >>
    >> In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
    >> below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...
    >>
    >> http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_177.html
    >>
    >> http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_179.html
    >>
    >> http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_180.html
    >>
    >> -WG
    >
    >

    FWIW, there were two crashes in that race. The one pictured was the first one. It was caused by a
    rider leaning into the bush too much while cornering, then losing control and causing a pileup.

    The second crash was more of a bumping-related crash.

    Josh Zlotlow [email protected] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen www.sacgw.com
     
  9. Bret Wade

    Bret Wade Guest

    Joshua Zlotlow wrote:

    > Sandbagging isn't really in the spirit of competition, which recreational racing is all about

    What sandbagging? It's age graded not ability graded. If someone's not comfortable with that open
    ended criteria then they should stick with catagory races.

    Bret
     
  10. K. J. Papai

    K. J. Papai Guest

    [email protected] (Joshua Zlotlow) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > >Subject: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected] Date: 8/8/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    > >Message-id: <080820030906039745%[email protected]>
    > >
    > >In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
    > >below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...

    abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/timpani_r_03_179.html

    > So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't do those either? I'm not
    > going to say too much more than that, since I don't want want to start sounding too much like
    > Henry, even though he's generally > right in his mockery of Masters racing.
    >
    > Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
    > of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to a lack of talent or ability to train enough due
    > to other demands in life; and 1s and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly
    > competitive in the serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack
    > of mostly Cat 3s.

    That's always the dichotomy of Masters 1/2/3 races.

    85% are won by Cat 1's (ex-Pros too), 14% by a Cat. 2 and 1% at best by a sandbagging 3. The 3's
    have no chance except for possibly safer racing than a pure Sr. 3 pack (I've done both many times
    and can assure you the Sr. 3 packs are three times as stupid as the Masters in NorCal).

    But then again, whatever motivates you to race (safely) should be fine for you, for me, or
    for anyone.

    Nothing wrong with any constructive criticism.

    -Ken

    > Josh Zlotlow [email protected] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen www.sacgw.com
     
  11. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >Subject: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected] Date: 8/8/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    > >Message-id: <080820030906039745%[email protected]>
    > >
    > >In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
    > >below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...
    > >
    > >http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_177.html
    > >
    > >http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_179.html
    > >
    > >http://www.abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/ti mpani_r_03_180.html
    > >
    > >
    > >-WG
    >
    > So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't do those either?

    I like racing with the people who have better skills than what predominates in the Sr. 3's races
    here in NorCal. I also like the challenge of racing against faster riders and with more interesting
    strategy than is common in the Sr. 3's events.

    > Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
    > of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to a lack of talent or ability to train enough due
    > to other demands in life; and 1s and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly
    > competitive in the serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack
    > of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow [email protected] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen

    For a guy who lives in this area you sure don't have an accurate grasp on who's doing what in the
    1,2,3 races. Look at the top 15 places of the 35+ 1,2,3 races and note how many of those guys are
    also racing next to you in the Pro 1,2 event. FWIW, I did the 35+ 1,2,3 event at Livermore and then
    did the Pro 1,2,3 event 90 minutes later in a hard crosswind. One that day it was harder to hang in
    the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race.

    -WG
     
  12. Warren

    Warren Guest

  13. DiabloScott

    DiabloScott New Member

    Joined:
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    Hmmm, I see a Warren G finishing the M35+123 in 18th place, is that you? I don't see any Warrens finishing the SrPro12 race at all. What happened?

    http://www.ncnca.org/road/2003/WenteCritResults.html
     
  14. Bryan Boldt

    Bryan Boldt Guest

    You're correct about that call. I think photo timpani_r_03_177.JPG shows the orange-fork-kinda-guy
    is behind the screwed-up-face-black-bianchi-bike-kinda-guy.

    Guess the moral is, watch out for guys on orange-bikes (do I hear Eddy breathing down my neck?).

    Dominic Richens wrote:
    >
    > Bryan Boldt wrote:
    > > Weak reasoning.
    > >
    > > You imply the crash was due to bumps and nudges in the Cat 3 race, but it appears to be the solo
    > > rider in the prior photo (timpani_r_03_174.JPG) that went down first.
    >
    > So, he had matching orange forks, the riderless crash bike had black forks.
    > --
    > Dominic Richens | [email protected] "If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying
    > attention!"
     
  15. >Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: DiabloScott [email protected] Date: 8/8/03 3:43 PM Pacific
    >Daylight Time Message-id: <[email protected]>
    >
    >Warren wrote:
    > > For a guy who lives in this area you sure don't have an accurate grasp on who's doing what in
    > > the 1,2,3 races. Look at the top 15 places of the 35+ 1,2,3 races and note how many of those
    > > guys are also racing next to you in the Pro 1,2 event. FWIW, I did the 35+ 1,2,3 event at
    > > Livermore and then did the Pro 1,2,3 event 90 minutes later in a hard crosswind. One that day
    > > it was harder to hang in the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race. -WG
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >Hmmm, I see a Warren G finishing the M35+123 in 18th place, is that you? I don't see any Warrens
    >finishing the SrPro12 race at all. What happened?
    >
    >http://www.ncnca.org/road/2003/WenteCritResults.html

    I think he was referring to the Wheels of Thunder Crit, which is also in Livermore, but at a
    different business park.

    http://www.ncnca.org/road/2003/WOTCritResults.html Josh Zlotlow [email protected] Sacramento,
    California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen www.sacgw.com
     
  16. "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080820031506095148%[email protected]...
    > In article <U0VYa.11304$jg.357736[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:080820031452311830%[email protected]...
    > >
    > > >
    > > >One that day it was harder to hang in the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Oh no, not this crap again.
    > >
    > >
    > > Goddamm Masters Fatties never learn.
    >
    > Fact is fact.

    Warren, that's pathetic.
     
  17. Bret Wade

    Bret Wade Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080820031506095148%[email protected]...
    >
    >>In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
    >><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:080820031452311830%[email protected]...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>One that day it was harder to hang in the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Oh no, not this crap again.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Goddamm Masters Fatties never learn.
    >>
    >>Fact is fact.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Warren, that's pathetic.

    Similar things have been said about the Tuesday night races in CO. People who double up in the 30+
    and P123 races (not me) have said that the P123 race is easier to sit in on, not because it slower
    (it's not) but because it's smoother. I don't know why that would be but I've heard it from more
    than one source. What this probably means is that sitting in doesn't tell the whole story.

    Bret
     
  18. [email protected] (Joshua Zlotlow) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > >Subject: Cat 3 fun
    >
    > So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't do those either? I'm not
    > going to say too much more than that, since I don't want want to start sounding too much like
    > Henry, even though he's generally right in his mockery of Masters racing.
    >
    > Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
    > of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to a lack of talent or ability to train enough due
    > to other demands in life; and 1s and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly
    > competitive in the serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack
    > of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow [email protected] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen
    > www.sacgw.com

    Obviously someone who's never actually done a Masters race.
     
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