Cat 3 fun

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Warren, Aug 8, 2003.

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  1. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    >
    > Once you see through Henry's joy of giving people a hard time, you should see that basically he's
    > saying that people who do race masters shouldn't take it too seriously.

    Ridiculous.
     


  2. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected] Date: 8/8/03 2:53 PM Pacific Daylight
    > >Time Message-id: <080820031452311830%[email protected]>
    >
    > >
    > >
    > >> Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made
    > >> up of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to
    > >a
    > >> lack of talent or ability to train enough due to other demands in life; and
    > >1s
    > >> and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly competitive in the serious races or
    > >> enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow
    > >> [email protected] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen
    > >
    > >For a guy who lives in this area you sure don't have an accurate grasp on who's doing what in the
    > >1,2,3 races. Look at the top 15 places of the 35+ 1,2,3 races and note how many of those guys are
    > >also racing next to you in the Pro 1,2 event. FWIW, I did the 35+ 1,2,3 event at Livermore and
    > >then did the Pro 1,2,3 event 90 minutes later in a hard crosswind. One that day it was harder to
    > >hang in the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race.
    > >
    > >-WG
    >
    > I took a look at some of the recent crit results posted on the NCNCA website. I didn't really see
    > any overlap between the Masters results and the 1/2/Pro results near the top.
    >
    > It seems the guys placing highly in the Masters' races generally are nowhere to be found in the
    > Pro 1/2 race.

    Look for the USPS guys, Morgan-Stanley, Indian Palace, and Team Spine for a start. Also look at the
    results for Friday Night Track events in the "A" group.

    -WG
     
  3. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > "Bret Wade" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    > > Similar things have been said about the Tuesday night races in CO. People who double up in the
    > > 30+ and P123 races (not me) have said that the P123 race is easier to sit in on, not because it
    > > slower (it's not) but because it's smoother. I don't know why that would be but I've heard it
    > > from more than one source. What this probably means is that sitting in doesn't tell the whole
    > > story.
    >
    > That is correct.

    Oh really?

    http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2385419731d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3d36f1ad.416773148%4-
    0news1.news.adelphia.net

    Make up your mind dispy doodle.
     
  4. Ken Papai

    Ken Papai Guest

    "Bryan Boldt" <[email protected]> wrote...
    > Weak reasoning.
    >
    > You imply the crash was due to bumps and nudges in the Cat 3 race, but it
    appears to be the solo
    > rider in the prior photo (timpani_r_03_174.JPG) that went down first.
    That could happen anytime in
    > any corner (case in point: checkout all the [doh!] TDF crashes this year,
    like stage 1 into Meaux,
    > the wet ITT, and of course Beloki).

    The Timpani course is about as EASY and un F'in technical as they get.

    Looks like some 3's panicked too much and caused a little mass extermination.

    >
    > Sure, if your group is riding slower you won't get as close to the limit.
    If that's your comfort
    > level, fine. The only "safe" race is a hill climb, but even then you'll
    see guys touch wheels and
    > go down.
     
  5. Ken Papai

    Ken Papai Guest

  6. Deeznuts

    Deeznuts Guest

    "Dashi Toshii" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > If someone enjoys bike racing, what's it to you what their motivation is?
    >
    > Dashii

    Don't worry. If you diet and train you might be able to drop your BMI enough to keep up with
    the P12 guys.

    Deez
     
  7. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]> wrote:

    > If you look carefully at all the crit results for this season, I doubt you will find many top 10s
    > from "Masters" riders.

    I only looked at the last 3 events with results listed. Monta Vista had at least 9, 35+ guys in the
    top 26, inlcuding Larry Nolan in 2nd who went in a 4-5 man break very early in the race, and Chris
    Black in 8th place who died in front of me in the 35+ sprint. Burlingame had 4 or maybe 5 guys in
    the top 15, and Davis about the same. The number is slightly higher if some of those guys don't have
    a 45+ race before their 35+ race.

    This number seems good to me considering ALL of the masters did a 45-50 minute race before the 1,2
    event. At Monta Vista the masters only had a 10 minute rest between races, and Davis was very hot.

    -WG
     
  8. Warren

    Warren Guest

    > > "Bret Wade" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > > Similar things have been said about the Tuesday night races in CO. People who double up in the
    > > > 30+ and P123 races (not me) have said that the P123 race is easier to sit in on, not because
    > > > it slower (it's not) but because it's smoother. I don't know why that would be but I've heard
    > > > it from more than one source.

    Less braking in the corners makes it easier to maintain a higher average speed.

    -WG
     
  9. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I don't need to do Masters races to observe that it's generally the same few guys winning most of
    > the time. As Ken Papai has already pointed out, the top places are almost always taken by riders
    > Cat II and above.

    So why is that a problem for you? I know more than a few 35+ 3's would rather do the Senior 3 race
    because it's not as fast and they have a better chance of getting a place, but I personally have
    alot more fun in a 35+ race whether I place or not. Most of the NorCal 30+ 1,2,3 races are even
    better because the average skill level is higher.

    -WG
     
  10. "Ken Papai" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:080820031452311830%[email protected]...
    > >
    > > >
    > > >One that day it was harder to hang in the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Oh no, not this crap again.
    > >
    > >
    > > Goddamm Masters Fatties never learn.
    >
    > Sometimes *even* the RBR SR is *dead wrong.*

    Fattie -

    don't kid yourself. The Masters are age handicapped for a reason.
     
  11. "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > >
    > > "Bret Wade" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > > Similar things have been said about the Tuesday night races in CO. People who double up in the
    > > > 30+ and P123 races (not me) have said that the P123 race is easier to sit in on, not because
    > > > it slower (it's not) but because it's smoother. I don't know why that would be but I've
    heard
    > > > it from more than one source. What this probably means is that sitting in doesn't tell the
    > > > whole story.
    > >
    > > That is correct.
    >
    >
    > Oh really?
    >
    >
    http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2385419731d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&se
    lm=3d36f1ad.416773148%40news1.news.adelphia.net
    >
    > Make up your mind dispy doodle.

    Dumbass -

    Ya, sitting in doesn't tell the whole story. It may not be that difficult to sit at the back of some
    pro races if the course is easy (the RR at Another Dam Race in AZ, for instance).
     
  12. "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080820032021115339%[email protected]...
    >
    > > > "Bret Wade" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > > Similar things have been said about the Tuesday night races in CO. People who double up in
    > > > > the 30+ and P123 races (not me) have said
    that
    > > > > the P123 race is easier to sit in on, not because it slower (it's
    not)
    > > > > but because it's smoother. I don't know why that would be but I've
    heard
    > > > > it from more than one source.
    >
    > Less braking in the corners makes it easier to maintain a higher average speed.

    Ya, it may be easier to sit at the back of a 1/2 race than a Cat 4 race, if the turns are right (ie.
    the turns come often, the 1/2s don't brake and the 4s do).
     
  13. "Scott Hendricks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > Obviously someone who's never actually done a Masters race.

    I've done plenty of both. Trust me, the Masters are easier, as one would expect.
     
  14. "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    > >
    > > Once you see through Henry's joy of giving people a hard time, you
    should see
    > > that basically he's saying that people who do race masters shouldn't
    take it
    > > too seriously.
    >
    >
    > Ridiculous.

    Dumbass -

    I'd word it more like:

    Masters should keep it in perspective.
     
  15. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I was only looking at top 10s at Monte Vista, I only noticed two riders in the top ten in both
    > races. I think a short time between races probably helped those riders who did both.

    Yes, Josh, you should try doing almost two hours of racing continuously against guys who only have
    to race about half that time. Or perhaps you can do your regular race warmup, then a race effort
    warmup for a full 50 minutes before your one race and then tell us that it helped you.

    -WG
     
  16. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected]

    > >So why is that a problem for you? I know more than a few 35+ 3's would rather do the Senior 3
    > >race because it's not as fast and they have a better chance of getting a place, but I personally
    > >have alot more fun in a 35+ race whether I place or not. Most of the NorCal 30+ 1,2,3 races are
    > >even better because the average skill level is higher.
    > >
    > >-WG
    > >
    > >
    >
    > My point was that the guys dominating the masters are there for easier pickings than senior races.

    Yes, and US pros do local races instead of major US races and Euro pros do US races and decent
    juniors race with the juniors instead of the Sr. 1,2's for the same reason, eh?

    > Your original point seemed to be that the pictured crash was caused by the threes being crazy and
    > unskilled. That particular crash was basically caused by one rider.

    Aren't nearly all crashes caused by one rider and then other people nearby with inadequate skills
    who overreact to the mistake by one rider? Tell us, in your experience, how would you compare the
    handling skills in your cat 3 races with those of the 35+ 1,2,3 events and the 30+ 1,2,3 events? My
    opinion comes from having done all of those events, and a few times on the same course and even on
    the same day.

    -WG
     
  17. Bret Wade

    Bret Wade Guest

    Joshua Zlotlow wrote:

    > I still don't see how any of this detracts from my point that the guys who are consistently
    > scoring well in Masters races are there for easier pickings than the much stiffer competition in
    > the 1/2/Pro race would offer.

    It's an oversimplification to say that the decision to race masters boils down to sandbagging alone.
    The decision is a tradeoff between multiple factors, involving competitive, social and safety
    issues. There are valid reasons for going either way and anyone claiming to have one right answer is
    talking out their ass.

    Bret
     
  18. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Bret Wade
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    >
    > > I still don't see how any of this detracts from my point that the guys who are consistently
    > > scoring well in Masters races are there for easier pickings than the much stiffer competition in
    > > the 1/2/Pro race would offer.
    >
    > It's an oversimplification to say that the decision to race masters boils down to sandbagging
    > alone. The decision is a tradeoff between multiple factors, involving competitive, social and
    > safety issues. There are valid reasons for going either way and anyone claiming to have one right
    > answer is talking out their ass.
    >
    > Bret

    Well, Josh is a Cat 3 but not old enough to have done any masters races. I wonder how he feels about
    guys 10-25 years older than him sandbagging in the 3's and taking the high places.

    Some reasons why good masters do the masters race instead of, or in addition to the 1,2, event...

    Many good masters racers have been racing with the same guys for many years-since they were
    seniors or pros and there is a friendly rivalry. The overall attitude is more friendly in the
    masters events.

    I could be wrong, but around here I think there is less chance of getting injured in a 35+ 123 race
    than any senior race.

    The races are shorter so the training time and time away from other obligations is shorter. We
    usually race earlier in the day so there is time afterwards to do something else.

    Competing against people who (mostly) have similar constraints on their time and energy for training
    so it's a test to see who can make the most with their limited time and energy.

    Not as many kamikazees willing to risk injury for a meaningless prize.

    -WG
     
  19. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Scott Hendricks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > > Obviously someone who's never actually done a Masters race.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I've done plenty of both. Trust me, the Masters are easier, as one would expect.

    Perhaps the masters are easier than the pro/1/2 fields, but unless you've got an incredibly strong
    3s field and a relatively weak masters field, the masters are not easier than the 3s by any stretch
    of the imagination.

    Here in CO, the 45+ will typically have avg speeds on par or slightly above the 3s, and the 35+ are
    significantly faster than the 3s. Some days they're almost on par w/ the pro/1/2 speeds.
     
  20. Amit

    Amit Guest

    [email protected] (Scott Hendricks) wrote in message
    > >
    > > I've done plenty of both. Trust me, the Masters are easier, as one would expect.
    >
    > Perhaps the masters are easier than the pro/1/2 fields,

    Perhaps ??!! I can't believe this is even debatable.

    > but unless you've got an incredibly strong 3s field and a relatively weak masters field, the
    > masters are not easier than the 3s by any stretch of the imagination.
    >

    Hah ahh ha !! Wishful thinking for masters. Avg. speeds don't mean shit, especially if the race
    distances aren't the same.

    > Here in CO, the 45+ will typically have avg speeds on par or slightly above the 3s, and the 35+
    > are significantly faster than the 3s. Some days they're almost on par w/ the pro/1/2 speeds.

    Hah. I don't think regional relative differences are big so think the same holds everywhere. In Cat
    3 you have riders who are on their way to Cat 1/2, making combacks etc. The 30+ races are
    comparable to Cat
    3. Sure there are a few strong guys in the Masters fields, but that's only the top few in a region.

    Why don't you look at the TT times in Cat 3 and Masters for a race a Fitchburg if you want to get an
    idea of the relative strengths of fields ?

    -Amit
     
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