Cat 3 fun

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Warren, Aug 8, 2003.

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  1. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Amit <[email protected]> wrote:

    > [email protected] (Scott Hendricks) wrote in message

    > > but unless you've got an incredibly strong 3s field and a relatively weak masters field, the
    > > masters are not easier than the 3s by any stretch of the imagination.
    > >
    >
    > Hah ahh ha !! Wishful thinking for masters. Avg. speeds don't mean shit, especially if the race
    > distances aren't the same.
    >
    > > Here in CO, the 45+ will typically have avg speeds on par or slightly above the 3s, and the 35+
    > > are significantly faster than the 3s. Some days they're almost on par w/ the pro/1/2 speeds.
    >
    > Hah. I don't think regional relative differences are big so think the same holds everywhere. In
    > Cat 3 you have riders who are on their way to Cat 1/2, making combacks etc. The 30+ races are
    > comparable to Cat
    > 3. Sure there are a few strong guys in the Masters fields, but that's only the top few in a
    > region.
    >
    > Why don't you look at the TT times in Cat 3 and Masters for a race a Fitchburg if you want to get
    > an idea of the relative strengths of fields ?
    >
    > -Amit

    Amit, you don't know what you're talking about, at least in my experience in NorCal and on the East
    coast. The only masters races that might be slower than the 3's are the 45+ when some of the major
    players are absent from the 45's. The younger masters groups contain lots of guys who are decent Cat
    2's and a few Cat 1's and ex-pros. Maybe things are different in Canada but you're wrong in at least
    NorCal, CO, and the Northeast. In the Northeast the masters and 3's criteriums are closer in speed
    and difficulty because most of the decent masters there are also 3's.

    -WG
     


  2. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    >

    > I think a short time between races probably helped those riders who did both.

    I've done multiple races many many times. Personally, I "need" at least two hours if I want to feel
    good in the second race *and* I raced hard in the first race. It isn't so bad if I just sit in for
    the first race, but that sort of wrecks the first one. I don't know what exactly you mean by short,
    but 1 hour isn't enough for me.

    > I still don't see how any of this detracts from my point that the guys who are consistently
    > scoring well in Masters races are there for easier pickings than the much stiffer competition in
    > the 1/2/Pro race would offer.

    I can't say I would disagree that they are there for a better chance at a high placing/winning. But
    the question is: so what? Or put another way, who doesn't like to win?
     
  3. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > > Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Once you see through Henry's joy of giving people a hard time, you
    > should see
    > > > that basically he's saying that people who do race masters shouldn't
    > take it
    > > > too seriously.
    > >
    > >
    > > Ridiculous.
    >
    > Dumbass -
    >
    > I'd word it more like:
    >
    > Masters should keep it in perspective.
     
  4. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > > >
    > > > "Bret Wade" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > > Similar things have been said about the Tuesday night races in CO. People who double up in
    > > > > the 30+ and P123 races (not me) have said that the P123 race is easier to sit in on, not
    > > > > because it slower (it's not) but because it's smoother. I don't know why that would be but
    > > > > I've
    > heard
    > > > > it from more than one source. What this probably means is that sitting in doesn't tell the
    > > > > whole story.
    > > >
    > > > That is correct.
    > >
    > >
    > > Oh really?
    > >
    > >
    > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2385419731d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&se
    > lm=3d36f1ad.416773148%40news1.news.adelphia.net
    > >
    > > Make up your mind dispy doodle.
    >
    > Dumbass -
    >
    > Ya, sitting in doesn't tell the whole story. It may not be that difficult to sit at the back of
    > some pro races if the course is easy (the RR at Another Dam Race in AZ, for instance).

    Dumbass,

    I already knew that. Make up your mind.
     
  5. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > > Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Once you see through Henry's joy of giving people a hard time, you
    > should see
    > > > that basically he's saying that people who do race masters shouldn't
    > take it
    > > > too seriously.
    > >
    > >
    > > Ridiculous.
    >
    > Dumbass -
    >
    > I'd word it more like:
    >
    > Masters should keep it in perspective.

    Dumbass,

    For the greatest part, they do more so than anyone else. It isn't any of your business in any case,
    since you're burned out and don't race anymore.
     
  6. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > "Scott Hendricks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > > Obviously someone who's never actually done a Masters race.
    >
    > I've done plenty of both. Trust me, the Masters are easier, as one would expect.

    Dumbass,

    One would not expect. As a general rule, MSTR 1/2/3 is harder than Cat 3. I know, I've done both.
    Once in a while the Cat 3 races are very hard, after all, some future pro's might be passing thru.
     
  7. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    >

    > My point was that the guys dominating the masters are there for easier pickings than senior races.

    Stop dodging.

    Answer the basic question: so what?

    Mars is red. So what?

    > Your original point seemed to be that the pictured crash was caused by the threes being crazy and
    > unskilled. That particular crash was basically caused by one rider.

    Okay. I don't view 3's as crazy and unskilled as a *general* rule: I was a 3 until I downgraded as a
    slow 45+ old guy who doesn't train enough. I think the fields are bigger in the 3's, there are more
    dreams of future biking glory amongst a younger crowd, and so naturally a bit more chance for error.

    I'd guess that most crashes are caused by one rider, so I don't get your point about that. A stackup
    is a stackup. It takes only one bad apple to spoil the bushel. There is more total riders in the 3's
    than the masters as a rule, so the chance for a bad one is higher. I think it is fair to say that
    experience counts for something, so the edge goes to the masters there too. It may not be big, but
    then the margins between "nothing bad happened" and "stackup" are small. So most Senior 3's are
    quite good enough as bike handlers, but that alone may not be enough when someone has a choice
    between races. I've done both.
     
  8. "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > >
    > > "Scott Hendricks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Obviously someone who's never actually done a Masters race.
    > >
    > > I've done plenty of both. Trust me, the Masters are easier, as one would expect.
    >
    > Dumbass,
    >
    > One would not expect. As a general rule, MSTR 1/2/3 is harder than Cat 3.

    Dumbass -

    I'm talking about Pro 1/2.
     
  9. Bret Wade

    Bret Wade Guest

    warren wrote:
    >>>"Bret Wade" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email protected]...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Similar things have been said about the Tuesday night races in CO. People who double up in the
    >>>>30+ and P123 races (not me) have said that the P123 race is easier to sit in on, not because it
    >>>>slower (it's not) but because it's smoother. I don't know why that would be but I've heard it
    >>>>from more than one source.
    >
    >
    > Less braking in the corners makes it easier to maintain a higher average speed.
    >
    > -WG

    I don't think it's the braking thing. There isn't much braking involved since the race is run on
    a sports car racing track with wide turns. What I failed to mention is that these races are run
    in a points race format. I don't think the P123 field breaks up as much on the sprint laps as the
    30+ field.

    Bret
     
  10. "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >

    >
    > Dumbass,
    >
    > For the greatest part, they do more so than anyone else.

    That isn't the opinion of many race promotors. And it's not all the Masters, only a few, but those
    few make a very large impression.

    >It isn't any of your business in any case, since you're burned out and don't race anymore.

    Dumbass -

    I wouldn't call it "burned out" as much as time to move onto something else. 11 years of 20
    hours/week was already too much time.
     
  11. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > > >
    > > > "Scott Hendricks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Obviously someone who's never actually done a Masters race.
    > > >
    > > > I've done plenty of both. Trust me, the Masters are easier, as one would expect.
    > >
    > > Dumbass,
    > >
    > > One would not expect. As a general rule, MSTR 1/2/3 is harder than Cat 3.
    >
    > Dumbass -
    >
    > I'm talking about Pro 1/2.

    Dumbass,

    Look at the subject line. You're doing Klassic Kunich: responding to something that wasn't even
    said, and I should not have followed the red herring.

    Hendricks didn't mention "easiness;" the topic is relative safety, and Hendricks pointed out that
    Josh can't judge relative safety because he hasn't done both. You use the same type of argument all
    the time, but all the sudden it's not okay with you.
     
  12. "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > >
    > > "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > "Bret Wade" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > >
    > > > > > Similar things have been said about the Tuesday night races in CO. People who double up in
    > > > > > the 30+ and P123 races (not me) have said
    that
    > > > > > the P123 race is easier to sit in on, not because it slower (it's
    not)
    > > > > > but because it's smoother. I don't know why that would be but I've
    > > heard
    > > > > > it from more than one source. What this probably means is that
    sitting
    > > > > > in doesn't tell the whole story.
    > > > >
    > > > > That is correct.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Oh really?
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2385419731d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&se
    > > lm=3d36f1ad.416773148%40news1.news.adelphia.net
    > > >
    > > > Make up your mind dispy doodle.
    > >
    > > Dumbass -
    > >
    > > Ya, sitting in doesn't tell the whole story. It may not be that
    difficult to
    > > sit at the back of some pro races if the course is easy (the RR at
    Another
    > > Dam Race in AZ, for instance).
    >
    > Dumbass,
    >
    > I already knew that. Make up your mind.

    Dumbass -

    That does not contradict with the referenced post.
     
  13. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    >
    > >
    > > Dumbass,
    > >
    > > For the greatest part, they do more so than anyone else.
    >
    > That isn't the opinion of many race promotors. And it's not all the Masters, only a few, but those
    > few make a very large impression.

    Weak. All that ranting about a few.

    > >It isn't any of your business in any case, since you're burned out and don't race anymore.
    >
    > Dumbass -
    >
    > I wouldn't call it "burned out" as much as time to move onto something else. 11 years of 20
    > hours/week was already too much time.

    Chickenshit.
     
  14. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Dumbass wrote:

    > That does not contradict with the referenced post.

    Dumbass wrote: Masters races tend to be smoother, therefore easier.

    Bret Wade wrote: People who double up in the 30+ and P123 races (not me) have said that the P123
    race is easier to sit in on, not because it slower (it's not) but because it's smoother.

    Dumbass wrote: That is correct.

    Make up your mind dipsy doodle.
     
  15. In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: Precious Pup [email protected] Date: 8/9/03 9:13 PM Pacific
    > >Daylight Time Message-id: <[email protected]>
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    > >>
    > >
    > >> My point was that the guys dominating the masters are there for easier pickings than senior
    > >> races.
    > >
    > >
    > >Stop dodging.
    > >
    > >Answer the basic question: so what?
    > >
    >
    > This kind of reminds me of the episode of Seinfeld when Kramer was bragging about his karate
    > exploits until his friends found out he was competing against kids. That's kind of my idea of what
    > sandbagging is. My idea of the best sportsmanship is competing at the highest level you can. If
    > you're sandbagging, you're not doing that. If you're taking masters races too seriously, you've
    > got a problem. People really need to keep a better perspective on recreational racing.

    In reviewing a bunch of master 35 1/2/3 race results it doesn't look like anyone is dominating the
    master fields ( in terms of race winners). In 34 different Master 35+ 1/2/3 races there have been 24
    different winners. The only multi race winners in the racs I review were.

    Daniel Smith 2 wis Chris Black 2 wins Sandy wong 2 wins Vince Gee 3 wins Brian McGuire 2 wins
    Patrick Briggs 2 wins Don Langley 2 wins Peter Allen 2 wins Michael Hutchinson 2 wins
     
  16. Kyle Legate

    Kyle Legate Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > I wouldn't call it "burned out" as much as time to move onto something else. 11 years of 20
    > hours/week was already too much time.
    >
    "Something else" being camping out on Usenet?
     
  17. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected] Date: 8/9/03 8:57 AM Pacific Daylight
    > >Time Message-id: <090820030856395614%[email protected]>
    > >
    > >In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow
    > ><[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> I was only looking at top 10s at Monte Vista, I only noticed two riders in the top ten in both
    > >> races. I think a short time between races probably
    > >helped
    > >> those riders who did both.
    > >
    > >Yes, Josh, you should try doing almost two hours of racing continuously against guys who only
    > >have to race about half that time. Or perhaps you can do your regular race warmup, then a race
    > >effort warmup for a full 50 minutes before your one race and then tell us that it helped you.
    > >
    > >-WG
    > >
    >
    > I'd say doing a race itself is the most effective warmup.

    Then go ahead and do a normal race warmup for 30-45 minutes, then do a race-effort for 50 minutes
    before ALL of your single races and tell us this again.

    To save you some time, why doesn't everybody already do this?

    -WG
     
  18. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected] Date: 8/9/03 9:04 AM Pacific Daylight
    > >Time Message-id: <090820030903129228%[email protected]>
    > >
    > >In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow
    > ><[email protected]> wrote:

    > >> My point was that the guys dominating the masters are there for easier pickings than senior
    > >> races.
    > >
    > >Yes, and US pros do local races instead of major US races and Euro pros do US races and decent
    > >juniors race with the juniors instead of the Sr. 1,2's for the same reason, eh?
    > >
    >
    > I think that's not a good analogy. It's different races versus different categories at a race.

    Huh? It's still guys doing easier races where they have a better chance of winning.

    > I've never done a masters race. I would agree that Cat 1 and 2 masters are better riders than
    > Senior 3s. An occassional crash in a 3s race isn't a real reason not to do them.

    "Occasional" crashes-actually about 5-10 times as many as in the NorCal 35+ 123 events, more riders
    doing stupid things, riders with poor cornering skills in the way, a predominance of chasing down
    everything that gets 20 meters off the front so that nearly all races end in field sprints, too many
    guys that swerve around botts dots, overreactions to slight problems, too much swarming because the
    speed isn't high enough, etc...

    -WG
     
  19. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <100820030913409273%[email protected]>, Casey Kerrigan
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow
    > <[email protected]> wrote:

    > > >Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    > > >>
    > > >
    > > >> My point was that the guys dominating the masters are there for easier pickings than senior
    > > >> races.

    > In reviewing a bunch of master 35 1/2/3 race results it doesn't look like anyone is dominating the
    > master fields ( in terms of race winners). In 34 different Master 35+ 1/2/3 races there have been
    > 24 different winners.

    So there are about 24 guys who are "dominating" the races. :)

    > The only multi race winners in the races I reviewed were.
    >
    > Daniel Smith 2 wins Chris Black 2 wins Sandy Wong 2 wins Vince Gee 3 wins Brian McGuire 2 wins
    > Patrick Briggs 2 wins Don Langley 2 wins Peter Allen 2 wins Michael Hutchinson 2 wins

    I think Larry Nolan won Monta Vista or one of those other Fremont Criteriums, and something else.
    Chris Hipp won Cherry Pie and at least one other race.

    -WG
     
  20. Gwhite

    Gwhite Guest

    Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    >
    > >Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: Precious Pup [email protected] Date: 8/9/03 9:13 PM Pacific
    > >Daylight Time Message-id: <[email protected]>
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    > >>
    > >
    > >> My point was that the guys dominating the masters are there for easier pickings than senior
    > >> races.
    > >
    > >
    > >Stop dodging.
    > >
    > >Answer the basic question: so what?
    > >
    >
    > This kind of reminds me of the episode of Seinfeld when Kramer was bragging about his karate
    > exploits until his friends found out he was competing against kids. That's kind of my idea of what
    > sandbagging is. My idea of the best sportsmanship is competing at the highest level you can. If
    > you're sandbagging, you're not doing that.

    That's fine with me as an ideal, but it is unfortunately only an ideal -- for one thing, people
    themselves wander around a bit in ability. I wouldn't mind seeing some variance in race day
    divisioning (from week to week I mean) to help spread things around a bit more. That would make
    perpetual sandbagging more difficult. But know that disturbing the status quo of race divisioning is
    not typically well received.

    The racers you refer to are responding to the incentives facing them, and why shouldn't they.
    Instead of commanding ethical behavior, as *you* see ethical behavior (as a matter of practicality,
    you'll *never* get everyone to agree with you on that), it would be better to handle it in a
    structural manner. I am strongly opposed to governing body edicts regarding what races will be
    offered and what will not be offered. I am strongly in support of race formatting being determined
    soley by the promoters, who in turn may respond to demands of the racers who attend their races.
    Allowing promoters to choose race format allows the opportunity to vary offerings without the
    command and control of a governing body, thus structurally breaking up some of the sandbagging you
    refer to (no need to convince anyone one of the "ethics" of it). Perhaps make your wishes better
    known among promoters, along with practical solutions for making the wish come true (they don't want
    to loose money, they want to profit).

    > If you're taking masters races too seriously, you've got a problem.

    This one is always going to be bullshit. The rule can be made for almost every bike racer and almost
    every division; there is no call for the singling out of masters. We can say that *none* of the
    amateurs, regardless of age, should take it "too seriously." Furthermore, it is up to the individual
    how serious to take it, that is if you believe in individual freedom. Overboard *individuals* should
    be dealt on a case-by-case basis; direction to "cool it" comes as much or more from ones peers as it
    does from the outside.

    As far as anecdotes go, here's mine: I've been a part of other team sports too, the older people are
    generally more level-headed. Younger players tend to be more hot-headed. My experience is that
    cycling is no different. How do you like that stereotype?

    > People really need to keep a better perspective on recreational racing.

    The problem I have with that is that it is too vague. Short of blowing a fuse and doing something
    dangerous or shouting at officials and residents (or things pooping in the San Ardo Grade School
    garden), someone can take it as "serious" as they want. It is their life to live, you know.
     
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