CCA follows my lead again

[Fausto Coppied]

Exactly, you have no context but yet you continue to comment.



Van de Wille, Shaklee was a pro team at a time pro teams in US were doing very well. Its competition was Saturn, Navigators, US Postal, Plymouth, etc. That's who we raced against in the US. They were all better organized.







You are probably shortchanging Evian on purpose. You know full well the team raced under those colours in '89, 90, 91 & '92 (four full years). It raced under Reynolds-Volkswagen one year. You misrepresent why Evian pulled out. It had nothing to do with their return on investment. It had everything to do with Phillipe Jacob (Evian Canada President) returning to BSN in France and Eric Schmidt of Vancouver taking over. Schmidt wanted to impress his buddies in BC and pull the money out of the cycling team for the '94 Commonwealth Games.



You are also misrepresenting Evian resources are compared to it true competition. We raced against Motorola, Saturn, Subaru-Montgomery, Coors Light, etc. Remember? They all had about 10 times our budgets or more. They had more equipment and personnel. Our competition was not Espoirs Laval. We handled them with our B squad of 18-year olds.



Again with regard to VeloNews and Hamilton 2003 you are skewing the picture and practicing some revisionism. Furthermore you do not seem to understand the nature of organization of the event.



Of course Velonews would have covered the event itself. That's a no-brainer. Much more important to success of the event was getting good PR BEFORE THE EVENT!



Hamilton 2003 was considered tenuous. Rumours of the demise of the event persisted as late as July 2003. Hamilton 2003 needed a positive image to assist in sponsorship sales (which were very, very late and pitiful), ticket sales (EXTREMELY important) and mechanizing sales (again very poorly executed).



For a guy that is supposed to be in public relations, Patrick, you don't seem to get it.



If you look back to the spring of 2003 the only good media coverage Hamilton 2003 got was from those VeloNews blogs. You should go read ALL of them again. BTW, only one of the blogs was poorly received by the Canadian Master racers. Hutsebaut agreed with that article. Much of the sentiments in it were his.



Masters are a drain on the resources of the nationals and that was my point in this thread. I have been proven correct since the Track Nationals will now remove Masters, Juniors ands ParaOlympics from the Elite And Women’s nationals. That should be done in all disciplines as it is in the US and many other countries

 

[Van de Wille]

I don't know, I simply don't think that people run cheap on expenses or billet riders when the resources exist to do otherwise. The fact that they were managing to compete against the teams you mention on what was obviously a smaller budget would be a glass-half-full way of looking at things, no?

You are probably shortchanging Evian on purpose. You know full well the team raced under those colours in '89, 90, 91 & '92 (four full years). It raced under Reynolds-Volkswagen one year. You misrepresent why Evian pulled out. It had nothing to do with their return on investment. It had everything to do with Phillipe Jacob (Evian Canada President) returning to BSN in France and Eric Schmidt of Vancouver taking over. Schmidt wanted to impress his buddies in BC and pull the money out of the cycling team for the '94 Commonwealth Games.

Oh chill out, and stop turning everything into a personal argument. I thought it was 3 years Evian/2 years Reynolds, so I swapped a year by mistake, big deal. And I don't think my comment was about why Evian pulled out: it was more about how no other sponsor was there to pile in and pick up the title, which I assume as a seasoned professional team organizer you duly shopped around. Had the publicity return on investment been exceptional, it stands to reason some other sponsor would have stepped forward, no?

And I don't want to get into an argument about results. You remember them differently than I do. I do recall Evian winning many races in Canada and a few in the US, but I don't remember the crushing domination you refer to.

Again with regard to VeloNews and Hamilton 2003 you are skewing the picture and practicing some revisionism. Furthermore you do not seem to understand the nature of organization of the event.

Of course Velonews would have covered the event itself. That's a no-brainer. Much more important to success of the event was getting good PR BEFORE THE EVENT!

blah blah blah...

For a guy that is supposed to be in public relations, Patrick, you don't seem to get it.

Hey, excuse me for looking at the situation and thinking that a handful of blogs in a cycling magazine in the US might be non-essential to the business mission of the entire organization. As a PR guy, I would still say that the upside in terms of publicity was significantly overshot by the potential downside.

And I disagree about Masters. I go to running events, triathlons, etc., and I see sports that are doing phenomenally well and where the participation of the mass and the competition of the elite at the same events has been beautifully meshed together to create a thriving industry. I look at cycling, and all I see is elites snobbing masters and everyone snobbing juniors and women only peripherally involved, and I think that we're blowing something.

 

[Prairie Boy]

Do you think any cycling publication in North America pays much! Pedal will give you about half a penny a word. Canadian Cyclist won't take anything Rob doesn't write. VeoNews gets most of its stuff for free to promote the races, riders, and races.

You really have almost no idea how the sport works here do you?

As for the little Prairie Dog, I must shake my head in sheer disbelief at his stupidity. Pul the hay out of your ****, little fella and go east for awhile before it is too late.[/QUOTE]

Ed,
I can't imagine you were any good at your cycling ventures. First, you can't write, "VeoNews, Pul", global statements that lack foundation and can't be backed. This is the area that you claim to have an educational background, yet you show yourself to be incompetent. Secondly, you get fired from your cycling work. And third (we will just stop here on the long list), you claim that experience trumps education. You have experience; some others go into it with an MBA. With your experience you insult the people you want to work with and demonstrate a complete inability to communicate. I wonder how those MBA people get along with others. I am pretty sure that you couldn't run the CCA by yourself with your own funding. There is some degree of social contract required. In your thinking, you believe that it is better to have no funding at all if you can't have the lion's share. I have a friend whose son was the Junior world champion in speedskating. The kid who finished second has million dollar endorsement deals in his European country while the Canadian boy gets small amounts sponsorship deals. It's Canada and we are about hockey and to a smaller extent, CFL. We are one of the best speedskating countries in the world, yet there is still little funding and sponsorship dollars there. How do you think cycling is going to fare?
Oh, I forgot, you spend so much energy feeding your fat ass that you have no blood flowing to your head. You don't even know that Patrick is tormenting you. Of course he knows how many years it was Evian/Reynolds, he just messes with you.

 

[Van de Wille]

Oh, I forgot, you spend so much energy feeding your fat ass that you have no blood flowing to your head. You don't even know that Patrick is tormenting you. Of course he knows how many years it was Evian/Reynolds, he just messes with you.

Uh, dude, I beg to differ. I seriously thought it was 3 years Evian/2 years Reynolds. For some reason five years total stuck with me. I can be forgiven for forgetting though: this all happened, what 15ish years ago? Which is why I'm not interested in arguing about it, it's all so irrelevant now. We sound like a bunch of alte kockers, talking about the good ol' times. Ed and I only differ on whether Evian can serve as a model for something. He thinks it can and should, I think it can't. We have other points of difference, obviously, but as long as these threads don't veer into personal attack I'd really just rather ignore them, because they're all just hashing out of stuff that's better left in the deep past. Like I said in another thread, my opinion is that us old guys with our dorky opinions fighting about 15-year-old **** just aren't relevant anymore. I'm happy to argue about other things if need be, but not about things related to Evian and results in races 15 freakin' years ago. Reminisce, sure, but argue, no.

 

[Prairie Boy]

I know. Just poking fun at Ed and his paranoid issues. What happened 15 years ago can be examined but can't be directly extrapolated onto the events of today. Times change, people change, interests change, the money flow changes, etc. Ed doesn't get that. What must make Ed real sad is that at road nationals, in the men's and women's TT, road race and crit.; if you look at the U23 and elite (really, Ed, the only two categories that matter) there are 10 gold medals. Saskatchewan received 4 out of those 10. Not bad for a little province with very few numbers. Ed likes to think that the golden days of cycling should continue, but things change and have moved right past Ed.

 

[Fausto Coppied]

And I don't think my comment was about why Evian pulled out: it was more about how no other sponsor was there to pile in and pick up the title, which I assume as a seasoned professional team organizer you duly shopped around. Had the publicity return on investment been exceptional, it stands to reason some other sponsor would have stepped forward, no?

Patrick,

Once again you are either just looking for an argument or completely oblivious to the reality of North American cycling.


I think you would agree that 7-Eleven and Motorola had great success yet when Motorola pulled out of Jim Oshowizc's team they had their Motorola marketing & advertising departments at Oshowicz disposal to find another sponsorship and it took a very long time even with all their resources and personnel. I was searching alone with no other personnel or resources other than my own private money and time.



BTW, Motorola did not pull out due to poor return on their investment, just the opposite. Motorola pulled out because they had achieved all the marketing goals they had set for themselves with the team, mainly raising their brand recognition in Europe. Evain did not pull out due to poor return on their investment either.



There are numerous other examples of other big teams losing a sponsor and not being able to find another, ask Len Pettyjohn, Frsank Scoscia and others. Frankly, past success in cycling do not easily translate into new sponsors.



I suppose we could forgive your ignorance on the subject, though, Patrick, since you have never found nor negotiated a single sponsorship agreement in cycling so you have no idea, once again, about what you are talking about.

 

[Van de Wille]

Why always the personal insults? Do you think you're the only one who knows how business works? I've been working with senior-level marketing people at very large companies for a decade, and reporting on them for ten years before that. You put together a single team, 15 years ago. Sheesh. Stop beating the Evian horse, Ed, 'cause it's getting a little long in the tooth.

Once again, I know this is hard for you to accept, but I am not interested in why Evian pulled out. Four years is a fine tenure for a sponsor - you rarely see more. But if no one picked up the title once they were done, it is because no one else saw the same value in it. You offer searching alone with your own resources as a reason why no new sponsor could be found. Fair enough. In that case, just reply: "Hey, there was sponsor value, but I didn't have the time to pursue it because I was too busy running the team." And then we could all draw our own conclusions about how intelligently and effectively you apportion your time.

Perhaps (although I think it's highly unlikely) Ochowicz used Motorola's resources to help find a new sponsor. But there the amounts were huge. Your citing of other examples where good results don't translate into easy sponsorship just goes to reinforce my point, doesn't it? The net of it is, cycling is a marginal sport, and even if you dominate it it still might not be enough to attract sponsorship interest. That is exactly what I said with regard to why no one was there to pick up the pieces once Evian pulled out. We don't see as many cases of this in Europe, where teams and managers morph over decades, moving from sponsor to sponsor, with some good times and some bad. Why? Because in Europe cycling is not a marginal sport! Get it!?

I think you would agree that 7-Eleven and Motorola had great success...

I'm not entirely sure I would agree with that. 7-Eleven is going a ways back, but for many years people complained that Motorola got nowhere near the same results as other teams with similar budgets.

BTW, Motorola did not pull out due to poor return on their investment, just the opposite. Motorola pulled out because they had achieved all the marketing goals they had set for themselves with the team, mainly raising their brand recognition in Europe.

I'm also not sure about that. They pulled out because sponsorships run their course, and unless your entire target market is made up of cyclists and cycling fans you need to spread your money around. Once you've spent four years enhancing your brand through one sport, time to move on to another. That's marketing.

I suppose we could forgive your ignorance on the subject, though, Patrick, since you have never found nor negotiated a single sponsorship agreement in cycling so you have no idea, once again, about what you are talking about.

Oh, screw off. I've been involved in more sponsorship discussions, on both ends, than you ever will. Be careful what you accuse me of knowing and not knowing, Ed. Just because I'm not some exhibitionist who splays his entire life out on Web forums doesn't mean my resume stinks.

 

[BillyBlass]

Why always the personal insults?

If you looked at Eds worlds velonews drivel, you would see this statement:

"I generally fly off the handle and I'm trying to learn better social skills and patience"

Does this help?

 

[Van de Wille]

Did I mention that as a PR guy I would never have let any of that stuff out the door? And I was accused of not knowing PR? Ooooookay...

 

[Fausto Coppied]

You put together a single team, 15 years ago. Sheesh. Stop beating the Evian horse, Ed, 'cause it's getting a little long in the tooth.

Oh, screw off. I've been involved in more sponsorship discussions, on both ends, than you ever will. Be careful what you accuse me of knowing and not knowing, Ed. Just because I'm not some exhibitionist who splays his entire life out on Web forums doesn't mean my resume stinks.

Patrick, why do you insist on disregarding anything I have done beyond Evian?


I put together the MAVIC deal with BMW for the Mavic Race Service of 1995 & 1996. I put together the deal for the touring event I did for 13 municipalities in southern Quebec in 1999. I brought many of the deals to the table for the Montreal Women’s World Cup in 1999. I brought Triumph to the 2003 Nationals and Roads. I brought Saturn to the 2003 Nationals when the 2003 sales staff failed to do so and had them line up for the 2003 RoadWorlds until I was terminated. I also got most of the sponsors for the 2003 Nationals program, doing that in my spare time because the Sales staff at 2003 dropped the ball.



As for your sponsorship experience, I'd like to hear about one sponsorship you brought to cycling.



Tell us.

 

[Van de Wille]

Patrick, why do you insist on disregarding anything I have done beyond Evian?

blah blah blah...

Well, because the rest has been piecemeal, occasional, and often ended in acrimony. And I ignore it because I couldn't care less about it. Lining up little one-off sponsorships has nothing to do with the ability to close - consistently and sustainably - long-term, large-scale deals... you know, the kinds of deals you're always reproaching others of not being able to close?

Why do you ignore everything I post other than one piddly comment? Do I assume you're agreeing with the rest, now?

Sponsorship in cycling? I've brought none: not my job, and I never tried to do every job... at once. Outside of cycling, all I'll say is that I've managed significant PR and marketing budgets. If you're interested in some consultation, call for my resume. I can assure you, you need it.

 

[Van de Wille]

Why do you ignore everything I post other than one piddly comment? Do I assume you're agreeing with the rest, now?

In case you've lost track, here's a partial list of topics raised by Ed and immediately dropped like a hot potato once rebutted:

1. Masters in cycling events

2. Velonews blogs not critical to Hamilton 03 mission

3. Sustainability of Evian-type sponsorship in Canada

4. "Success" of 7-Eleven and Motorola programs

5. My ignorance of PR (care to pay my rate?)


Scorekeeper? Where'd that guy go?

 

[Fausto Coppied]

In case you've lost track, here's a partial list of topics raised by Ed and immediately dropped like a hot potato once rebutted:

1. Masters in cycling events

2. Velonews blogs not critical to Hamilton 03 mission

3. Sustainability of Evian-type sponsorship in Canada

4. "Success" of 7-Eleven and Motorola programs

5. My ignorance of PR (care to pay my rate?)


Scorekeeper? Where'd that guy go?

Van de Wille are you insane?

I have never dropped the Masters in cycling events issue! I have written at length about this in VeloNews and on every cycling forum I have frequented.

I will sum it up again for you.

I think Masters should have their own Championships, as they do in most other countries but not Canada. They clog the Elite Nationals. Media doesn't care about Masters (except golfers) Fans don't care about Masters, they want to see the best, not the best for a given age group. Having a Master category begining at 30 is ridiculous. Half the pro peleton would fit in that.

Only Masters and their families care about Masters.

2. You are being ridiculous. Nobody ever clamied the blogs in VeloNews were mission critical but they were a hell of a lot better than all the bad PR Hamilton 2003 was getting at the time. Go look.

3. There is plenty of room for Evian-like Sponsrhsip in Canada. You are contradicting yourself since you already claim Symmetrics and others are bigger. If so, then obviously they can be sustained. They certainly are in other sports with less interest than cycling.

4. 7-Eleven and Motorola wer huge success here and even in North Americs. Ask Alex Steida, Davis Phinney Steve Bauer, Brian Walton, Lance Armstrong. Shite, you are an idiot, Van de Wille...Have you been to LA and Colorado Spring were 7-Eleven BUILT & BOUGHT the tracks?

5. Van de Wille you work for your big brother handling pr for small firms we hardly ever hear about. You cannot even garner a reader on Pedal Forum n your own. I left it died as I predicted. I get hundreds here. Face it, Paddy. The only time anybody will write about you is you obituary. You covered me for the cycling media, remember? I sure as hell didn't interview you!!! You were never and will never be player in anything, you will only write about them.

6. Name us one sponsorship in cycling you worked on . Go ahead. You dropped that issue like a hot potato, didn't you.

 

[Van de Wille]

Man o man. I just don't now what to type. Work for my big brother? He's an engineer. I'm a PR guy. You need to perfect your web searching, and after the last thread any one of us can show you how. The rest... wow. Finished with the beer and tucked into the windshield wiper fluid, my guess...

 

[Fausto Coppied]

Man o man. I just don't now what to type. Work for my big brother? He's an engineer. I'm a PR guy. You need to perfect your web searching, and after the last thread any one of us can show you how. The rest... wow. Finished with the beer and tucked into the windshield wiper fluid, my guess...

Yeah, wow...

Van de Wille, last year I asked if you worked for your father, since there was another Van de Wile on your web ste and you said no it was your brother. I'll post that email later I think I have it on my other computer.

Again, tell us about ANY sponsorships you have dealt with in cycling.

You can comment on the other points anytime ...

PS Hey big PR guy, where is your web site???? You don't even have your own web site anymore? You used to have one with your bro. I guess when he got hired in Phoenix you canned it? Maybe you only work by word of mouth and don't believe in the internet? No web site???? Would you like me to sell you one!

A Google search turns up only one "Client" to which you name is attached now, Cellon, that's it????

As I said, nobody gives a shite enough to write about you anywhere....

 

[Van de Wille]

Not all my clients list my name. That's the way we want it.

And if you insist on dragging family into this then we can end the conversation right here. I don't work for family, my brother and I shared a website at some point (for e-mail purposes), and that's more than you need to know. And no, I don't need you to build me a website, because I don't need one, either to develop business or stroke my vanity.

 

[Fausto Coppied]

Not all my clients list my name. That's the way we want it.

And if you insist on dragging family into this then we can end the conversation right here. I don't work for family, my brother and I shared a website at some point (for e-mail purposes), and that's more than you need to know. And no, I don't need you to build me a website, because I don't need one, either to develop business or stroke my vanity.

And there you have it!

Patrick Van de Wille, our big Public Relations and Communications expert, has to share a web site with his brother to have an email address. The Communication and promotional expert does not think he needs a web site in 2006!!!

Not all his clients list his name????

It appears from the Internet only one "client" lists his name. Most PR guy/girls have their name on the bottom of every press release to contact them for further information.

And still Van de Wille CANNOT point to one sponsorship deal he has made in cycling.

Ladies and gentleman I give you Patrick Van de Wille: hot air, lies, distortions and very few accomplishments.....

 

[Van de Wille]

Play it the way you like, Ed, makes no difference to me. I do PR for my clients, not for myself, and I have as much work as I'm interested in having. Your website is a crucial business tool for you? Or yet another avenue for your kooky opinions? I thought so. I don't care to have one. And the domain has always been mine, and that's all I care to give you as information. If anyone who is not insane cares to see my credentials, feel free to contact me.

Ed, do us all a favor and stop drawing any conclusions about things you know nothing about and presenting them as fact. That's libel, and while truth is a defense in libel cases I'm afraid it's not on your side here.

 

[Fausto Coppied]

Fact: Patrick Van de Wille, the PR guy, doesn't even have a web site.

There's your master of communications! He has a real grasp of the tools available to the trade today! Not!!!!

Name me one other successful public relations professional or firm that doesn't have a web site?

Truth, Patrick, you want want to speak of truth? Why start now!

You want to speak of libel and lies, should I go get those you posted about me?

You cannot disprove one statement I have made in 20 years.


And still not one mention of sponsorship he has brought to cycling.

Kooky opinions, like the one that started this thread, the move to finally separate the various categories from the CDN National championship programs, something I have been calling for for years?

Kooky opinions like finally selling merchandise from the CCA to raise revenue, something I have been calling for for years?

Kooky opinions like reinstating a National Critierium Championships, something I have been calling for for years?

Kooky opinions liek hiring somebody in a cycling association that knows something about cycling, like I have been calling for for years?

Yup, all real kooky stuff.

You're a wannabe groupie, Van de Wille. Put on your bear suit and ride.....

 

[Uboat]

As you suggested we do, I contacted Frank Sciosca of Shaklee. I was always a big fan of what their team did I so had to ask him more about how the team was with you. Here's some of what he had to say:

Thanks for your note. Glad you were a fan of the team and are of the sport (its been a tough year for cycling for us fans.)

The record of Team Shaklee stands for itself. My involvement with founding and running Team Shaklee and then my involvement with San Francisco Grand Prix in 2001 and Webcor pro cycling team in 2003-2005 plus the Webcor Women's team now also speak for themselves.

I have not read the post, but I can imagine he would not have anything worthwhile to say. He worked for the team for a very short time, just a few months. He was not missed by a single person involved with the team that season.

Mr. Arzouian thinks very highly of himself. I am sure any response to his post would only encourage Mr. Arzouian to think his opinion has any merit or value.

Best, Frank
........................

Also of note was that after my email to him regarding more info on Shaklee, he came here to read what you wrote. He later added "It was interesting to note that he cites the fact that Team Shaklee hired him as proof of his competency, then turns around and says he quit because of poor management. He can't have it both ways. If I was a lousy manager then my hiring him can't validate his skill. Most humorous was his statement that he was called out of the blue for the job. In 15+ years of running elite teams I have never had anyone lobby more (through endless phone calls) for the position than Mr. Arzouian. "

Fact: Patrick Van de Wille, the PR guy, doesn't even have a web site.

There's your master of communications! He has a real grasp of the tools available to the trade today! Not!!!!

Name me one other successful public relations professional or firm that doesn't have a web site?

Truth, Patrick, you want want to speak of truth? Why start now!

You want to speak of libel and lies, should I go get those you posted about me?

You cannot disprove one statement I have made in 20 years.


And still not one mention of sponsorship he has brought to cycling.

Kooky opinions, like the one that started this thread, the move to finally separate the various categories from the CDN National championship programs, something I have been calling for for years?

Kooky opinions like finally selling merchandise from the CCA to raise revenue, something I have been calling for for years?

Kooky opinions like reinstating a National Critierium Championships, something I have been calling for for years?

Kooky opinions liek hiring somebody in a cycling association that knows something about cycling, like I have been calling for for years?

Yup, all real kooky stuff.

You're a wannabe groupie, Van de Wille. Put on your bear suit and ride.....