Chain lube comparison

[Matt O'Toole]

On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 21:16:27 -0800, Dane Buson wrote:

> Lets say you clean it every 250 miles. In 3000 miles that is eleven
> times you take it off the bike and clean it. So two hours of work
> minimum to double the life of a $25 chain.

Actually it's more like every 500 miles, or more. You can adjust your
numbers accordingly.

> That's not counting the cost
> of your degreaser or wear and tear on your scrub brush.

FWIW, I use automotive parts cleaner that comes in a paint can, with a
parts basket inside. It's a self contained system. All I do is soak the
chain for awhile, then rinse it in the sink. No scrubbing required.
I've had the same can for years. It cost $8. It might be $10 now, but
you can use it practically forever.

Matt O.

 

[Claire Petersky]

"Dane Buson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Matt O'Toole <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:46:53 -0800, Dane Buson wrote:
>>
>>> It's a lot smarter in terms of opportunity cost to just change your
>>> chain when it's time to. Even if cleaning it doubled the life it's not
>>> really economical.
>>
>> I disagree. It takes me about 10 minutes of actual work to clean and
>> relube my chain. The soaking and rinsing can take place while I'm doing
>> other work. Chains cost $25 if you're stuck paying the gringo price at
>> the LBS, which most of us are. I'd like to make $150/hr regularly,
>> but...
>
> Correction: 10 minutes * how ever many times you clean it.
>
> Lets say you clean it every 250 miles. In 3000 miles that is eleven
> times you take it off the bike and clean it. So two hours of work
> minimum to double the life of a $25 chain. That's not counting the cost
> of your degreaser or wear and tear on your scrub brush.
>
> So, given the totally best case answer, instead of spending $50 ($25 *
> 2) on chains, you spend $25 dollars and spend 2 hours mucking about with
> solvents and scrub brushes. You're paying yourself $12.50 an hour.


But Dane, we're not talking just about the cost of the chain. If you're not
cleaning the drivetrain, you'll have to replace the chainrings and the
sprockets more frequently, too. And that is much more expensive than just
the chain.


--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
Sponsor me for the Big Climb! See: www.active.com/donate/cpetersky06
See the books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

 

[Pat Lamb]

Dane Buson wrote:
> Matt O'Toole <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:46:53 -0800, Dane Buson wrote:
>>
>>> It's a lot smarter in terms of opportunity cost to just change your
>>> chain when it's time to. Even if cleaning it doubled the life it's not
>>> really economical.
>> I disagree. It takes me about 10 minutes of actual work to clean and
>> relube my chain. The soaking and rinsing can take place while I'm doing
>> other work. Chains cost $25 if you're stuck paying the gringo price at
>> the LBS, which most of us are. I'd like to make $150/hr regularly, but...
>
> Correction: 10 minutes * how ever many times you clean it.
>
> Lets say you clean it every 250 miles. In 3000 miles that is eleven
> times you take it off the bike and clean it. So two hours of work
> minimum to double the life of a $25 chain. That's not counting the cost
> of your degreaser or wear and tear on your scrub brush.
....
>>> [4] Mine are generally SRAM PC-59 bought on sale for $15 or so. [5]
>> Don't forget shipping! How much time do you spend looking for sales? Be
>> honest!
>
> Yup, that's with shipping and everything. Nashbar sale + 10% coupon +
> bulk order of many things I needed + getting 4 chains at a time = $15 a
> chain. I probably look at sales for about an hour every two weeks or
> so. Back when I needed more parts it was more, but I have most things I
> need on hand now.

Surely you should count the time shopping to get a better deal. 10
minutes per week cleaning, say, vs. 1 hour per week shopping? How does
that save you time (and money)??

And how much time do we spend arguing about chains?

Pat

 

[Ken C. M.]

Pat Lamb wrote:

> And how much time do we spend arguing about chains?
>
> Pat

Ah yes, I am almost sorry I started another chain / lube thread.

Ken
--
You never have the wind with you - either it is against you or you're
having a good day. ~Daniel Behrman, The Man Who Loved Bicycles

Homepage: now with it's very own domain name
http://www.bikesandmoreonline.com/

 

[Methusaleh]

On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 21:16:27 -0800, Dane Buson <[email protected]> wrote:

>I am a very frugal fellow, FFS, I reuse zipties. But IMO, cleaning your
>chain is the modern bicyclist equivalent of wearing a hair shirt.

While going over my bike last night, I elected to replace the chain
before beginning the serious season, because I made a connection I
have not seen explained previously. Much of my riding is on sandy
tracks. Despite good chain oiling and cleaning last season, it was
still "gritty". I realized that it bore a similarity to those quarry
saws that use cables dipped in abrasive slurry-That work so well for
cutting granite. Imagine the poor chainrings.
Last year I would remove it and use an ultrasonic cleaner with
Stoddard solvent, then oil it and wipe it clean. Maybe there IS
something to waxing them, especially for biking trail use.

 

[Dane Buson]

Claire Petersky <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> But Dane, we're not talking just about the cost of the chain. If you're not
> cleaning the drivetrain, you'll have to replace the chainrings and the
> sprockets more frequently, too. And that is much more expensive than just
> the chain.

From what I understand, the wear is fairly strictly a function of how
worn the chain is, not how dirty the chain is at any point. If you're
chucking the chain everytime it starts to have excessive wear, then
their is no difference between the two cases. The sprockets and
chainrings are not worn by the grit *inside* the chain, which is what
all these chain cleaning regimens are aimed at.

Anyway, I haven't noticed any loss in chainring or sprocket life in my
drivetrain. I'm changing them out pretty much the exact same as I was
when I did the much more rigourous soak/agitate/dry/lube cycle.

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
You are never given a wish without also being given the
power to make it true. You may have to work for it, however.
-- R. Bach, "Messiah's Handbook : Reminders for the Advanced Soul"

 

[Dane Buson]

Pat Lamb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Surely you should count the time shopping to get a better deal. 10
> minutes per week cleaning, say, vs. 1 hour per week shopping? How does
> that save you time (and money)??

Why? I'm not *just* looking for chains. I'm looking at all bicycle part
prices. If bicycle chains dissappeared off the face of the earth in a
puff of logic, I would still spend the exact same amount of time looking
at Nashbar. If you counted the time I spent looking for chains, then it
would probably count as about 5 minutes per year. Which is about 3-4
chains worth, depending on how sloppy the weather.

> And how much time do we spend arguing about chains?

Because it's too early for the influx of TDF newbs, the seasonal riders
are still digging their gloves out of boxes, and the trolls are all snug
in their beds, having been killfiled with care. Just wait until some
local municipality does something boneheaded regarding cyclists, or
someone gets offended at someone else utterances. Then it will be off
to the races again.

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
And the crowd was stilled. One elderly man, wondering at the sudden silence,
turned to the Child and asked him to repeat what he had said. Wide-eyed,
the Child raised his voice and said once again, "Why, the Emperor has no
clothes! He is naked!" -- "The Emperor's New Clothes"

 

[Peter Cole]

Dane Buson wrote:
> Claire Petersky <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>But Dane, we're not talking just about the cost of the chain. If you're not
>>cleaning the drivetrain, you'll have to replace the chainrings and the
>>sprockets more frequently, too. And that is much more expensive than just
>>the chain.
>
>
> From what I understand, the wear is fairly strictly a function of how
> worn the chain is, not how dirty the chain is at any point. If you're
> chucking the chain everytime it starts to have excessive wear, then
> their is no difference between the two cases. The sprockets and
> chainrings are not worn by the grit *inside* the chain, which is what
> all these chain cleaning regimens are aimed at.
>
> Anyway, I haven't noticed any loss in chainring or sprocket life in my
> drivetrain. I'm changing them out pretty much the exact same as I was
> when I did the much more rigourous soak/agitate/dry/lube cycle.
>

There was a report on this NG by someone who actually performed an
experiment of cleaning only half of his chain. He noticed no difference
in wear between the two halves. Despite the hours spent in debate over
chain cleaning regimens, nobody has bothered to repeat the experiment. I
don't bother with chain cleaning any more.

 

[Dane Buson]

Matt O'Toole <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 21:16:27 -0800, Dane Buson wrote:
>
>> Lets say you clean it every 250 miles. In 3000 miles that is eleven
>> times you take it off the bike and clean it. So two hours of work
>> minimum to double the life of a $25 chain.
>
> Actually it's more like every 500 miles, or more. You can adjust your
> numbers accordingly.

I couldn't get away with that for about six months of the year. In
Seattle, riding in the winter, I was cleaning it about every 100-150
miles. And the chain still abraded away in about 1500 miles. Now I
just wipe and lube it whenever it squeaks or makes sound, or after a
particularly heavy rain. And I still get the same mileage out of them.

In the summer I typically get 2500-3000 miles out of chain (again with
either regimen).

>> That's not counting the cost
>> of your degreaser or wear and tear on your scrub brush.
>
> FWIW, I use automotive parts cleaner that comes in a paint can, with a
> parts basket inside. It's a self contained system. All I do is soak the
> chain for awhile, then rinse it in the sink. No scrubbing required.
> I've had the same can for years. It cost $8. It might be $10 now, but
> you can use it practically forever.

True, but if you're going to posit a high price for chains from the bike
shop, it only seems fair I should be able to posit $6 for 16-32oz of
'special' chain cleaner from the same place. [1]

[1] I also have the jumbo jug o' degreaser

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
THE LESSER-KNOWN PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES #17: SARTRE

Named after the late existential philosopher, SARTRE is an extremely
unstructured language. Statements in SARTRE have no purpose; they just are.
Thus SARTRE programs are left to define their own functions. SARTRE
programmers tend to be boring and depressed, and are no fun at parties.

 

[Dane Buson]

Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> There was a report on this NG by someone who actually performed an
> experiment of cleaning only half of his chain. He noticed no difference
> in wear between the two halves. Despite the hours spent in debate over
> chain cleaning regimens, nobody has bothered to repeat the experiment. I
> don't bother with chain cleaning any more.

Aye, I was thinking of the same thread. I'm planning on changing my
chain tonight, so I'm halfway tempted to replicate it.

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
Work to Eat
Eat to Live
Live to Ride
Ride to Work.

 

[Peter Cole]

Dane Buson wrote:
> Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>There was a report on this NG by someone who actually performed an
>>experiment of cleaning only half of his chain. He noticed no difference
>>in wear between the two halves. Despite the hours spent in debate over
>>chain cleaning regimens, nobody has bothered to repeat the experiment. I
>>don't bother with chain cleaning any more.
>
>
> Aye, I was thinking of the same thread. I'm planning on changing my
> chain tonight, so I'm halfway tempted to replicate it.
>

If you do, I hope you get the same result, otherwise I may have to start
cleaning chains again...

 

[Zoot Katz]

On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 10:17:00 -0500, "Ken C. M."
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Pat Lamb wrote:
>
>> And how much time do we spend arguing about chains?
>>
>> Pat
>
>Ah yes, I am almost sorry I started another chain / lube thread.
>
>Ken

We had to have a chain/lube thread before we can have another guns or
dogs thread. That's the annual cycle.
--
zk

 

[Sorni]

Zoot Katz wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 10:17:00 -0500, "Ken C. M."
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Pat Lamb wrote:
>>
>>> And how much time do we spend arguing about chains?
>>>
>>> Pat
>>
>> Ah yes, I am almost sorry I started another chain / lube thread.
>>
>> Ken
>
> We had to have a chain/lube thread before we can have another guns or
> dogs thread. That's the annual cycle.

Pun pardoned.

 

[Andrew Price]

On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 11:10:17 -0800, Zoot Katz <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>Ah yes, I am almost sorry I started another chain / lube thread.
>>
>>Ken
>
>We had to have a chain/lube thread before we can have another guns or
>dogs thread. That's the annual cycle.

Don't forget Brooks saddles, either.

 

[Dane Buson]

Zoot Katz <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 10:17:00 -0500, "Ken C. M."
>>
>>Ah yes, I am almost sorry I started another chain / lube thread.
>
> We had to have a chain/lube thread before we can have another guns or
> dogs thread. That's the annual cycle.

Well, we had one unexpectedly large thread (barcons), and I'm almost
sure we've had a recent h#l#%t thread. Have we compared our puncture
rates yet?

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
The story includes this array of huge rhymes-with-hell machines, all running
screensavers, the power and SAN cables neatly run between them... and the
disused tape-storage closet stuffed with old Sun boxen still humming quietly
away. - adb in ASR on rumours of a flawless SunOS to NT site cutover.

 

[Dane Buson]

Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dane Buson wrote:
>>
>> Aye, I was thinking of the same thread. I'm planning on changing my
>> chain tonight, so I'm halfway tempted to replicate it.
>
> If you do, I hope you get the same result, otherwise I may have to start
> cleaning chains again...

If it was double then I'd start contemplating cleaning. Almost anything
less still wouldn't be worth it. Maybe I'll have to dig up the old
thread and see if I can crib his methodology.

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
"On the movie "Highlander II": "In an experiment to determine the precise
amount of beer required to enjoy this film, I passed out."
-- dave o'brien, in the Monastery

 

[[email protected]]

Peter Cole wrote:
>
> There was a report on this NG by someone who actually performed an
> experiment of cleaning only half of his chain. He noticed no difference
> in wear between the two halves. Despite the hours spent in debate over
> chain cleaning regimens, nobody has bothered to repeat the experiment. I
> don't bother with chain cleaning any more.

I remember that discussion. I'm always glad for anything I can use to
justify my inherent laziness.

OTOH, I don't want clean chains to extend their life. I want clean
chains so I keep the black gunk off my dress pants, jeans, jackets,
hands, legs, car interior...

- Frank Krygowski

 

[Zoot Katz]

On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:34:26 -0800, Dane Buson <[email protected]> wrote:

>Zoot Katz <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 10:17:00 -0500, "Ken C. M."
>>>
>>>Ah yes, I am almost sorry I started another chain / lube thread.
>>
>> We had to have a chain/lube thread before we can have another guns or
>> dogs thread. That's the annual cycle.
>
>Well, we had one unexpectedly large thread (barcons), and I'm almost
>sure we've had a recent h#l#%t thread. Have we compared our puncture
>rates yet?

Mine's remained typically low so I figure it's time to jinx myself.
Some of the tires collected for making into belts had Mr.Tuffy strips
still in them so I ended up trying them in my tires.

Those things suck but do keep down the number of glass punctures that
seem to increase as the tires get more worn. The other day I'd left in
a hurry knowing my tires need topping up. The semi raised paint line
was causing my front tire to squirm around rather disconcertingly in
the bridge traffic. It's not so evident when the tires are hard but
it's still squirrely compared to running without the kevlar liners.

I hope we're through with headphone threads for awhile.
--
zk

 

[Zoot Katz]

On 2 Mar 2006 14:17:36 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>OTOH, I don't want clean chains to extend their life. I want clean
>chains so I keep the black gunk off my dress pants, jeans, jackets,
>hands, legs, car interior...
>
>- Frank Krygowski

I didn't find Boeshield T9 to be particularly clean. It still left
tattoos and would get you hands just as filthy if you were forced to
handle it without some protection.
--
zk

 

[Wayne Pein]

[email protected] wrote:
> Peter Cole wrote:
>
>>There was a report on this NG by someone who actually performed an
>>experiment of cleaning only half of his chain. He noticed no difference
>>in wear between the two halves. Despite the hours spent in debate over
>>chain cleaning regimens, nobody has bothered to repeat the experiment. I
>>don't bother with chain cleaning any more.
>

If his "experiment" didn't test for cleanliness, it is not a rigourous
experiment at all, and merely pseudo science. The conclusion could be
that crummy cleaning is no better than not cleaning. Since a clean chain
should not wear, that is a likely conclusion.

I think it would be especially difficult to adequately clean just half a
chain. I suppose he could have disassembled each link and scrubbed the
parts individually, but that is unlikely. OTOH, it may also be
prohibitively difficult to adequately clean a full chain in order to
reap the benefits of clean chain longevity.

Wayne, triple kerosene bath anyone?