Chain lubrication

Derk Drukker <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

Quoted message said:

> So? That's why you oil your chain afterwards.

NO, the oil won't be able to restore the lubrication and will wear out faster then if you would
just wipe dirt off with a piece of cloth. Cleaning your chain with liquid degreaser will cause
faster wear. Your chain will look nicer, but you'll have to replace it sooner.

Quoted message said:

Again, so what? I have a brand spanking new "lubrication layer" of oil.

It won't get inside the chain. It is pressed out, whilst the original grease won't be pressed out.

Why won't it get inside the chain? After all, dirt gets in there easily enough. "Pressed out"
suggests that it gets in, but then is forced out. If so, why isn't the original grease pressed out?
What's so special about the original grease? Is there some kind of grease or oil that can't be
displaced by metal-on-metal contact?

If the original grease can be gotten out by using the wrong kind of degreaser, then why can't the
dirt be gotten out? Isn't the dirt suspended in the grease or oil?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My chain still runs smoothly over 600 km later (and possibly much further).

I always used Campa C9 chains and did 6500 km with them, without using any cleaner. I just rubbed
the dirt off with a piece of cloth.

Quoted message said:

Why would I want the "original lubrication" to still be
there, probably filled with dirt causing my chain to wear?

Because independent lab results showed afterr taking many chains apart, that your statement is not
correct.

If the original lubricant is still in there, why add oil at all? Wouldn't the recommendation be just
to keep the outside clean and add no oil? After all, we know that new oil can't get in there anyway.
("But then Rohloff couldn't sell its magic elixer," my cynical side says.)

Quoted message said:

MAybe you'll believe the Rohloff company. They say: "the inside of a chain, where dirt builds up,
can't be cleaned anyway (in other words: you remove the oil, but the dirt stays inside). So don't
use degreasers, but only use something that doesn't degrease for 100% like Diesel or petroleum".
(from Rohloff tech info: chain maintenance). Rohloff says so, as does Campagnolo. If you think a
shiny chain is more important then wear, you should clean it with degrease, but you'll only clean
the outside, not the inside where it really matters.

I don't know anything about diesel, but I thought people used it to clean their chains precisely
because it is a degreaser. Does diesel contain some kind of oil to make cars and trucks run
smoothly? Is that why Rohloff recommends it -- it cleans and leaves behind a protective oil film? If
so, that would seem to run counter to the idea that new oil can't be introduced into the places
where it matters.

I'm curious how Tour magazine cleaned the chains in its tests -- did they use one of the scrubbers
that are on the market or did they remove the chain from the bike and immerse it in degreaser,
rinsing several times to get rid of suspended dirt? What kind of oil did they use in these tests
that supposedly show that oil won't replace the original lubrication?

By the way, if the original lubricant isn't removed except by degreasers, why will a chain left in
the rain start squeaking? Isn't that a sign that there's no lubrication left?

The manufacturer recommendations don't make much sense to me. Here's what SRAM says on its website:

"Clean dirty chains before oiling. [Thus contradicting Rohloff's claims about cleaning being
impossible.] Do not use any grease-dissolving or acidic agents. [Is there a difference between a
degreaser and a grease-dissolver?] Cleaning agents must be rinsed off after a few minutes with
water. [Why? Sounds similar to Rohloff's claim about leaving behind the original oil.] Apply oil
after chain is completely dry."

Here's what Campagnolo says in the brochure for its new spray lube (from the Campagnolo website):

"Dirt and lack of lubricant accelerate wear to the chain. Before lubricating, thoroughly clean the
drive system ... with a brush or cloth saturated with an appropriate degreaser or detergent.
[Rohloff says degreasers are bad, right?] Do not remove the chain for cleaning and lubrication." [Is
that because a thorough cleaning is bad or (more likely in my opinion) because Campagnolo is worried
that people won't know how to reassemble the chain properly?]

"Derk Drukker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello Tom said:

What "chemical" is being used here? Solvents? Acid? Alkali?

The things that are sold in bikeshops as "chain degreasers". According to the tests performed,
only Diesel doesn't do any harm.

[censored]!

Quoted message said:

Greets, Derk

Gary Young said:

Why won't it get inside the chain? After all, dirt gets in there easily enough.

It gets in, but doesn't stay in.

Quoted message said:

"Pressed out" suggests that it gets in, but then is forced out. If so, why isn't the original
grease pressed out?

Because it's thicker.

This is what the magazine (a VERY serious magazine) did: they took loads of chains. Some were oiled,
some weren't, some were just wiped off, others were cleaned with different degreasers. After testing
they took them apart and took pictures of the inside of a chain Pictures of taken apart chains were
published. The results were:
1) If you want to degrease, only use diesel or petroleum, but no other degreasers.
2) It's just as good not to degrease, but to wipe the chain clean with a piece of cloth.
3) All degreasers other than diesel and petroleum destroy the original lubrication.

Quoted message said:

What's so special about the original grease? Is there some kind of grease or oil that can't be
displaced by metal-on-metal contact?

I'll re-read the article for you and tell you about it.

Quoted message said:

If the original grease can be gotten out by using the wrong kind of degreaser, then why can't the
dirt be gotten out? Isn't the dirt suspended in the grease or oil?

I'll look that up too.

Quoted message said:

I don't know anything about diesel, but I thought people used it to clean their chains precisely
because it is a degreaser. Does diesel contain some kind of oil to make cars and trucks run
smoothly?

Diesel doesn't degrease for 100% like other degreasers and on top of that it evaporates. Wait a
minute: that was the reason: most degreasers leave traces of it in the chain when you use them to
degrease the chain and destroy the oil you use to lubricate after cleaning.

Quoted message said:

oil film? If so, that would seem to run counter to the idea that new oil can't be introduced into
the places where it matters.

It can, but it doesn't stay inside for a long period.

Quoted message said:

I'm curious how Tour magazine cleaned the chains in its tests -- did they use one of the scrubbers
that are on the market or did they remove the chain from the bike and immerse it in degreaser,
rinsing several times to get rid of suspended dirt? What kind of oil did they use in these tests
that supposedly show that oil won't replace the original lubrication?

I'll tell you tomorrow after I re-read the article again.

Quoted message said:

"Clean dirty chains before oiling. [Thus contradicting Rohloff's claims about cleaning being
impossible.]

No, they also say clean it, but that means with a cloth, not with a degreaser.

Quoted message said:

Do not use any grease-dissolving or acidic agents.

An acidic agent attacks the metal of the chain.

Quoted message said:

grease-dissolver?] Cleaning agents must be rinsed off after a few minutes with water.

because it will destroy the oil you use to lubricate the chain.

Quoted message said:

"Dirt and lack of lubricant accelerate wear to the chain. Before lubricating, thoroughly clean the
drive system ... with a brush or cloth saturated with an appropriate degreaser or detergent.
[Rohloff says degreasers are bad, right?]

Detergent means the thing you use to wash dishes I think.

Quoted message said:

Do not remove the chain for cleaning and lubrication." [Is that because Campagnolo is worried that
people won't know how to reassemble the chain properly?]

I think so :-)

I'll look up the article again tonight.

BTW: TOUR really does a good job on tests and publish only really reliable test results. They are
known for that. I really believe what they say. What they recommend is what is cheapest according to
me: only use diesel when you *really* need to degrease a chain, only apply an oil of a good
thickness: too thin and it won't do anything, too thick and it won't get inside your chain.

I think a lot of money is earned by selling all these spray cans and degreasers.

The only reason I recommend Rohloff is because I am very happy with it. I am certain there will me
many more good oils on the market, but not here in Holland where everybody seems to use Teflon
and/or silicon spray. I even had to order this oil from Germany, because it's not sold in bikeshops.
I seem to be one of the last persons here to use real oil instead of spraycans.

BTW: according to the test, silicon and teflon do nothing for your chain.

Greets, Derk

OK here we go:

From : TOUR nr 8, August 2001, Original text. Ing. Dirk Zedler

The article says:

"Inside the chain there is fat to start with. The fat is destroyed when you use degreasers. The
degreasers have "tensides?" in them, that destroy the chemical structure of the fat inside the chain
and causes the destruction of what they call "basic lubrication(=fat). On top of this, the chain
doesn't get really clean inside. If you then apply oil on it, traces of the degreaser that are left
inside the chain destroy the oil.

They say about cleaning: just clean by wrapping a cloth around the chain with one hand and turn the
chain around with your other hand. Only rinse it with clear water after a ride that leaves dirt and
sand on your chain.

Silicon is not helpful, because it does nothing when two metals are pressed on each other.teflon is
also a waste of money in this case. This leaves wax, oil and fat. Oil of average viscosity is
recommended.

Apply oil regularly. even in good weather every 200-300 km's".

bosaci said:

[censored]!

Thank you for your well balanced input with fine nuances.

Greets, Derk

Derk Drukker said:

This is what the magazine (a VERY serious magazine) did: they took loads of chains. Some were
oiled, some weren't, some were just wiped off, others were cleaned with different degreasers.
After testing they took them apart and took pictures of the inside of a chain Pictures of taken
apart chains were published. The results were:
1) If you want to degrease, only use diesel or petroleum, but no other degreasers.
2) It's just as good not to degrease, but to wipe the chain clean with a piece of cloth.
3) All degreasers other than diesel and petroleum destroy the original lubrication.

These are not results, they are conclusions that the authors drew from their results. This is an
important distinction. I haven't seen their results, but in any case I'm not convinced they support
the conclusions.

Quoted message said:

The only reason I recommend Rohloff is because I am very happy with it. I am certain there will me
many more good oils on the market, but not here in Holland where everybody seems to use Teflon
and/or silicon spray. I even had to order this oil from Germany, because it's not sold in
bikeshops. I seem to be one of the last persons here to use real oil instead of spraycans.

Surely motor oil and chainsaw oil is available in Holland? You don't have to buy everything for your
bicycle in a bike shop.

I'm not trying to convince you to get rid of your Rohloff lube; after all you already have it, and
it make work as well as chainsaw oil. However, you haven't offered any evidence that it works
*better*, and it costs ten times as much, so I see little reason to recommend it to others.

Quoted message said:

BTW: according to the test, silicon and teflon do nothing for your chain.

I tried White Lightning for a while, and would not recommend it, especially for people who ride in
the rain. I had to apply it frequently, and my chain started to rust.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Amoebit: Amoeba/rabbit cross; it can multiply and divide at the same time.

David Kunz said:

And, if you filter and reuse the solvent, you get your favorite lube reapplied when the solvent
evaporates 🙂.

Sound like a good idea! :-)

Greets, Derk

Benjamin Lewis said:

Derk Drukker wrote: These are not results, they are conclusions that the authors drew from their
results.

You're right. I couldn't find that term in English when I needed it.

Quoted message said:

This is an important distinction. I haven't seen their results, but in any case I'm not convinced
they support the conclusions.

You should see the picture of a chain that was taken apart, that had been treated with degreasers in
contrast to one that hadn't been treated: the one that had never been degreased showed a clear layer
of fat inside the chain, the other had nothing left.

Quoted message said:

Surely motor oil

I tried it, but I found it too thick.

Quoted message said:

and chainsaw oil is available in Holland?

It will come as a surprise to you, but chainsaws are not something one sees here that often. I think
I have never seen anyone use them in fact.

Quoted message said:

I'm not trying to convince you to get rid of your Rohloff lube; after all you already have it, and
it make work as well as chainsaw oil.

The article says to use oil of moderate viscosity, doesn't matter what brand.

Quoted message said:

However, you haven't offered any evidence that it works *better*, and it costs ten times as much,
so I see little reason to recommend it to others.

I would buy cheaper oil too if I could find it, but in comparison to the spray cans that are sold
here, it's very cheap.

Quoted message said:

I tried White Lightning for a while, and would not recommend it, especially for people who ride in
the rain. I had to apply it frequently, and my chain started to rust.

That is something I also read in TOUR magazine. If I remember well they say you have to degrease the
chain B4 applying it. Not recommended! ;-)

Greets, Derk

Derk Drukker said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

Derk Drukker wrote: These are not results, they are conclusions that the authors drew from their
results.

You're right. I couldn't find that term in English when I needed it.

Quoted message said:

This is an important distinction. I haven't seen their results, but in any case I'm not convinced
they support the conclusions.

You should see the picture of a chain that was taken apart, that had been treated with degreasers
in contrast to one that hadn't been treated: the one that had never been degreased showed a clear
layer of fat inside the chain, the other had nothing left.

I thought you said there was dirt left?

Also, do they have evidence that removing this "fat layer" is a bad thing, if it's subsequently
replaced by an oil layer?

I would like to see the pictures though. Do you have access to a scanner?

--
Benjamin Lewis

Amoebit: Amoeba/rabbit cross; it can multiply and divide at the same time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I expect this will have been discussed here at length but I have only been taking the group for a
short time and haven't seen it. What is the most efficient way to maintain and lubricate a bike
chain? Perhaps someone could point me to a site where this is discussed.

Ya'll gotta be kiddin'! Spit's the cleaner and 'possum fat's the lube. -- Cliff Shaw (Have you even
HEARD of Oildale CA?)

Benjamin Lewis said:

Quoted message said:

You should see the picture of a chain that was taken apart, that had been treated with degreasers
in contrast to one that hadn't been treated: the one that had never been degreased showed a clear
layer of fat inside the chain, the other had nothing left.

I thought you said there was dirt left?

I think you should see the dirt on a microscopic level. I'll rephrase that for you. (Please don't
forget English isn't my language): One could clearly see that the chain that had been degreased had
a destroyed fat layer inside, whilst the chain that had always been wiped off with a cloth still had
an intact orginal fat layer inside.

Quoted message said:

Also, do they have evidence that removing this "fat layer" is a bad thing, if it's subsequently
replaced by an oil layer?

They measured in another article 19 diefferent chains and tested them for long-life, etc etc.If I
remember well it were the results of these tests that made them draw these conlusions. The tests
were carried out by Dirk Zedler, who has a website: www.zedler.de There you can also admire a
collection of broken bike parts. Zedler has a very good reputation for carrying out tests. You can
see parts of these artilces on his website. You could always mail him and tell him that a discussion
has been going on about degreasing chains and that you read he wrote an article about chain
maintenance in Tour and if he could explain to you why degreasing is such a bad thing if you oil the
chain afterward.

Quoted message said:

I would like to see the pictures though. Do you have access to a scanner?

I do, but I have to reinstall it for the following off-topic reason that I am certain I could
discuss about for a long time: I have liberated my computer of Windows and use Linux now, but my
scanner is a USB scanner that is known to be diffficult to install under Linux. But boy: am I happy
all software is free for Linux! I'll see what I can do. Could take a while, though.

Greets, Derk

Derk Drukker said:

From : TOUR nr 8, August 2001, Original text. Ing. Dirk Zedler

Quoted message said:

The article says:

Quoted message said:

"Inside the chain there is grease to start with. The grease is destroyed when you use degreasers.
The degreasers have "tensides?" in them, that destroy the chemical structure of the grease inside
the chain and causes the destruction of what they call "basic lubrication (grease). On top of
this, the chain doesn't get really clean inside. If you then apply oil on it, traces of the
degreaser that are left inside the chain destroy the oil.

This is a veiled threat that only lubricants packaged by bicycle suppliers are safe to use. What is
far more damaging to a chain is to lubricate it when it is dirty, because it is grit that destroys
chains, not solvents.

Quoted message said:

They say about cleaning: just clean by wrapping a cloth around the chain with one hand and turn
the chain around with your other hand. Only rinse it with clear water after a ride that leaves
dirt and sand on your chain.

The dirt on the outside of the chain may have aesthetically unpleasing nature but it does not harm
the chain. Only by rubbing it into the joints and adding oil will it form grinding paste inside the
pin and sleeve, there where wear is damaging.

Quoted message said:

Silicones are not helpful, because they do nothing when two metals are pressed on each other.
Teflon is also a waste of money in this case. This leaves wax, oil and grease. Oil of average
viscosity is recommended.

...on a dirty chain. This will improve chain sales as they wear out much faster than if allowed to
run dry and squeaky.

Quoted message said:

Apply oil regularly. even in good weather every 200-300 km's".

That's more than twice a week for active riders! More grinding paste! Don't miss:

draco.acs.uci.edu8d.2.htmlOpen ↗

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

Derk Drukker said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

Quoted message said:

You should see the picture of a chain that was taken apart, that had been treated with
degreasers in contrast to one that hadn't been treated: the one that had never been degreased
showed a clear layer of fat inside the chain, the other had nothing left.

I thought you said there was dirt left?

I think you should see the dirt on a microscopic level. I'll rephrase that for you. (Please don't
forget English isn't my language): One could clearly see that the chain that had been degreased
had a destroyed fat layer inside, whilst the chain that had always been wiped off with a cloth
still had an intact orginal fat layer inside.

Well, this is what one would expect, after all. I'm not convinced that this original layer
remains even on the surfaces that experience high pressure/friction, which are the areas we are
concerned with.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, do they have evidence that removing this "fat layer" is a bad thing, if it's subsequently
replaced by an oil layer?

They measured in another article 19 diefferent chains and tested them for long-life, etc etc.If I
remember well it were the results of these tests that made them draw these conlusions. The tests
were carried out by Dirk Zedler, who has a website: www.zedler.de There you can also admire a
collection of broken bike parts.

Unfortunately my German is only marginally better than my Swahili, so I cannot get the full benefit
of the site.

The test I would be interested in would not involve 19 different chains; rather 19 identical chains
systematically treated in different ways (if this is not what you meant.)

I haven't been cycling long enough since I started using real lubricant to know how long my chains
last. For convenience, I use 3 chains in rotation. After 4000 km, the only one of these chains that
has any wear at all that I can see has "stretched" by at most 1/64" over 12 links -- it appears to
be less than that, but that's around the limit I can measure with this ruler. If we assume that this
chain has been used exactly one third of the time, and if I replace it when it's 1/16" longer at 12
links, it will last for over 5300 km. This is very much a lower bound, though -- I suspect I've used
it for more than 4000/3 km, and I think it's elongation is less than
1/64". I'll just have to wait (and bicycle) and see, I guess.

I just took apart links from one of my "clean" chains, and my current dirty chain. There was indeed
dirt in the clean chain, but there was a lot more dirt in the dirty chain.

I'm also not convinced the mineral spirits with which I clean my chains leave any "residue" to break
down the oil later. I was under the impression that it all evaporated.

Quoted message said:

Zedler has a very good reputation for carrying out tests. You can see parts of these artilces on
his website. You could always mail him and tell him that a discussion has been going on about
degreasing chains and that you read he wrote an article about chain maintenance in Tour and if he
could explain to you why degreasing is such a bad thing if you oil the chain afterward.

Nah, I'd rather argue about it on usenet 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would like to see the pictures though. Do you have access to a scanner?

I do, but I have to reinstall it for the following off-topic reason that I am certain I could
discuss about for a long time: I have liberated my computer of Windows and use Linux now, but my
scanner is a USB scanner that is known to be diffficult to install under Linux. But boy: am I
happy all software is free for Linux! I'll see what I can do. Could take a while, though.

Great, I look forward to it.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber

Derk Drukker said:

Gary Young said:

Why won't it get inside the chain? After all, dirt gets in there easily enough.

It gets in, but doesn't stay in.

Quoted message said:

"Pressed out" suggests that it gets in, but then is forced out. If so, why isn't the original
grease pressed out?

Because it's thicker.

This is what the magazine (a VERY serious magazine) did: they took loads of chains. Some were
oiled, some weren't, some were just wiped off, others were cleaned with different degreasers.
After testing they took them apart and took pictures of the inside of a chain Pictures of taken
apart chains were published. The results were:
1) If you want to degrease, only use diesel or petroleum, but no other degreasers.
2) It's just as good not to degrease, but to wipe the chain clean with a piece of cloth.
3) All degreasers other than diesel and petroleum destroy the original lubrication.

This makes sense. However, what about adding lube to the degreaser so that it acts to carry it back
in the chain and when it evaproates, leaves it behind? This happens by default if you filter and
reuse the degreaser.

AND, I ride a mountain bike -- frequently in water and rain. I find that wiping is totally
inadequate. And the chain cleaners don't get the grit between the plates where it damages the gears.
Did Tour also check for gear wear / life span?

After reading a similar thread here last summer, I tried the wipe only thing and my shifting went
south. I could hear the grit when I bent the chain. Cleaned the chain and all was well again. That
was the shortest lived chain that I've ever had.

I've tried chain cleaners with detergent and I've tried turpentine. I find that the turpentine leads
to longer chain and gear life FOR ME IN MY CONDITIONS. This is based on replacing the chain at 1/16"
wear over 6 links, and letting lube build-up in the turpentine by filtering and reusing it.

...

Quoted message said:

BTW: according to the test, silicon and teflon do nothing for your chain.

Based on replacing chains as above, I've tried synthetic oil (several), teflon oil (finish line red
cap), and wax based lubes. Synthetic oil loads-up in dusty conditions and I have to carry a bottle
in my pack to re-oil the chain every so often (how does bar oil do here?). It also doesn't last well
in water / on rainy days (even though it claims to). Ice wax was a bust for me. It wouldn't stay on
the chain long enough for my rides and washed off on the first water crossing. The teflon oil adds
about 500-1000 miles to my chain life -- consistently. Finish line's wax lube holds up pretty well
also (in dust, rain, and on long rides), but I haven't used it long enough to say anything about
it's chain life aspects. As always YMMV.

David

jobst.brandt said:

...on a dirty chain. This will improve chain sales as they wear out much faster than if allowed to
run dry and squeaky.

In the winter when roads are coevred with sand and mud, my 8 speed
Shimano chain lasts only 2000 km. In the summer it's at least 4000 km.

What exactly is that citrus cleaning agent I read about on Sheldon's pages?

Greets, Derk

...who cares said:

What's the bid deal fellas!?

The way I see it is just stick anything on yer chain so long as it runs smoothly - I bet olive oil
would work for dry journeys. And when it shows even the slightest sign of wear just buy a new one
- Hell! They ain't expensive, and you're guaranteed a decent smooth running chain.

That's my technique. 'Course, I ride mountain bikes, and there is just no way to keep the grit off
the chain. After every ride, I just scrape the junk off and pour on one of the waxes until it shifts
okay. A couple of months later, I get a new chain. :-)

Duke

Derk Drukker said:

Quoted message said:

...on a dirty chain. This will improve chain sales as they wear out much faster than if allowed
to run dry and squeaky.

Quoted message said:

In the winter when roads are covered with sand and mud, my 8 speed
Shimano chain lasts only 2000 km. In the summer it's at least 4000 km.

Quoted message said:

What exactly is that citrus cleaning agent I read about on Sheldon's pages?

There are a number of cleaning agents for mechanical parts and hand cleansers that contain citric
acid that cuts oils and allows them to be washed away with water.

As hand cleaners they have the disadvantage that they remove nearly all surface oils from the skin
and allow further contact with grime (typically other dirty machine parts) to adhere far more
tenaciously to the skin and subsequent cleaning gets more difficult. There are lotions to ameliorate
this effect, but you must purchase them in addition to the "Orange Cleaner" (comes in orange
containers).

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There are a number of cleaning agents for mechanical parts

and hand

Quoted message said:

cleansers that contain citric acid that cuts oils and

allows them to be

Quoted message said:

washed away with water.

This is what I always thought, until I found out the active ingredient in citrus degreasers is not
citric acid, but L-limonene, a caustic compound also refined from orange peels. It's easy to have
this misconception because citric acid too has been an effective and popular cleaning agent,
particularly in the "good old days" when you could buy it generically at the hardware store, in
powdered form.

Quoted message said:

As hand cleaners they have the disadvantage that they

remove nearly

Quoted message said:

all surface oils from the skin and allow further contact

with grime

Quoted message said:

(typically other dirty machine parts) to adhere far more

tenaciously

Quoted message said:

to the skin and subsequent cleaning gets more difficult.

This is true.

Quoted message said:

There are lotions to ameliorate this effect, but you must purchase

them in

Quoted message said:

addition to the "Orange Cleaner" (comes in orange

containers).

Nothing special is needed, although special, expensive "barrier cream" is most effective. Any common
moisturizing hand lotion will do. So will plain vaseline.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There are a number of cleaning agents for mechanical parts

and hand

Quoted message said:

cleansers that contain citric acid that cuts oils and

allows them to be

Quoted message said:

washed away with water.

This is what I always thought, until I found out the active ingredient in citrus degreasers is not
citric acid, but L-limonene, a caustic compound also refined from orange peels. It's easy to have
this misconception because citric acid too has been an effective and popular cleaning agent,
particularly in the "good old days" when you could buy it generically at the hardware store, in
powdered form.

Before they found this wonderful new way to get rid of it (L-limonene) by selling it as a cleaner,
it was classed as a hazardous waste product..

Sort of like Ironite lawn Fertilizer...

Matt O'Toole said:

This is what I always thought, until I found out the active ingredient in citrus degreasers is not
citric acid, but L-limonene, a caustic compound also refined from orange peels. It's easy to have
this misconception because citric acid too has been an effective and popular cleaning agent,
particularly in the "good old days" when you could buy it generically at the hardware store, in
powdered form.

Citrus terpenes come about when you commercially squeeze an orange. If you bend an orange peel
and see that fine mist, that is the terpenes. When you hand squeeze oranges, the terpenes stay in
the peel and the juice tastes sweeter. When you smash the entire orange, the terpenes go into the
juice but the solubility is limited so a layer comes to the top of the vat. Only small quantities
were useful long ago as raw materials for flavors and fragrances. Now, the stuff is sold as a
safe solvent.

Terpenes are powerful solvents that have low volatility and very limited water solubility. They will
wash grease and grime very well but it is very difficult to get the terpenes off the part. You need
lots of water and some detergeant as well.

Safe? Yes you can squirt the stuff in your mouth but never get any in your eye. I cannot see how
people clean chains by dunking in the orange miracle and then manage to get the solvent out so that
a decent lubricant can go on.