chain tools

[Bob s.]

I've got a much older 'professional' park chain tool from the 80's, back before indexing, narrow chains for 8,9,and 10 gear clusters. I've also got several of the small hand-held chain tools also from the 80's. Can I use these on the 9 and 10 speed 'ultra narrow' chains? If I shouldn't use them, why? Can I modify the chain tool by changing the pin or something? I'd hate to think I can't use what was a very expensive for me tool, but if I shouldn't use it, then I won't.
That said, I have used it, and I don't like how the pin went in. It's flush on the outside with a very sharp burr on the inside - I think it broke off funny. Can I file this down? Is the chain still good? I was worried at the start that I might have tweaked the link a little when I pushed the pin all the way out.
Thanks for any help and advice!
--Bob

 

[alfeng]

I've got a much older 'professional' park chain tool from the 80's, back before indexing, narrow chains for 8,9,and 10 gear clusters. I've also got several of the small hand-held chain tools also from the 80's. Can I use these on the 9 and 10 speed 'ultra narrow' chains? If I shouldn't use them, why? Can I modify the chain tool by changing the pin or something? I'd hate to think I can't use what was a very expensive for me tool, but if I shouldn't use it, then I won't.
That said, I have used it, and I don't like how the pin went in. It's flush on the outside with a very sharp burr on the inside - I think it broke off funny. Can I file this down? Is the chain still good? I was worried at the start that I might have tweaked the link a little when I pushed the pin all the way out.
Thanks for any help and advice!
--Bob

You will observe that when you put a narrower chain in your older chain tool that the chain is not snug against anything ... when you proceed to push the rivet out or re-set it, the back plate will not be supported ... it will distort and probably not allow the pin to be set.

ALSO, IMO, Park seems to use the cheapest metal they can with most of their tools ... so, the odds are the casting for your chain tool is similarly constructed. It will probably not sustain the pressure of the rivet being re-inserted EVEN IF you were to put a shim behind the back plate of the link.

IF the plates of the are parallel AND you can move the links without them binding, then it is probably "okay" to use ...

BUT, the chain should have come with TWO installation links (whatever they're called) in that little cello-pack. CARRY ONE WITH YOU ON YOUR RIDES!

I remove the excess links from a new Shimano chain in the traditional way ... I then use the REGULAR pin that is still in situ to connect the chain in the old fashioned way ... a little slower, but if you've got the technique, already, it isn't hard.

FYI. When you break off that special installation PIN that is provided (they are chain width specific, BTW), it should break off cleanly and not leave a signficant burr -- the only way you can normally differentiate with a regular pin is the slight pin-point in the center of the rivet's end.

FWIW. I happen to have a LIFU chain tool which has a hollow core bolt that snugs the narrower chain after you have seated it in the chain tool.

 

[Bob s.]

Thanks for the reply! A LIFU chain tool? Don't believe I've heard of it, and I'm definitely in the market for a chain tool. Do you know who sells them?
--Bob

 

[Bob s.]

You will observe that when you put a narrower chain in your older chain tool that the chain is not snug against anything ... when you proceed to push the rivet out or re-set it, the back plate will not be supported ... it will distort and probably not allow the pin to be set.

ALSO, IMO, Park seems to use the cheapest metal they can with most of their tools ... so, the odds are the casting for your chain tool is similarly constructed. It will probably not sustain the pressure of the rivet being re-inserted EVEN IF you were to put a shim behind the back plate of the link.

IF the plates of the are parallel AND you can move the links without them binding, then it is probably "okay" to use ...

BUT, the chain should have come with TWO installation links (whatever they're called) in that little cello-pack. CARRY ONE WITH YOU ON YOUR RIDES!

I remove the excess links from a new Shimano chain in the traditional way ... I then use the REGULAR pin that is still in situ to connect the chain in the old fashioned way ... a little slower, but if you've got the technique, already, it isn't hard.

FYI. When you break off that special installation PIN that is provided (they are chain width specific, BTW), it should break off cleanly and not leave a signficant burr -- the only way you can normally differentiate with a regular pin is the slight pin-point in the center of the rivet's end.

FWIW. I happen to have a LIFU chain tool which has a hollow core bolt that snugs the narrower chain after you have seated it in the chain tool.

So you re-use your existing pin, what is "IN SITU"? In the past I've always re-used the pins on my older hyperglide chains for 7 and 8 speeds, never had a problem.
--Bob

 

[alfeng]

Thanks for the reply! A LIFU chain tool? Don't believe I've heard of it, and I'm definitely in the market for a chain tool. Do you know who sells them?
--Bob

LIFU is apparently Taiwanese ... I happened to get mine from Nashbar ... Supergo also used to carry them. Both mail order sources probably still carry them.

They are also included in those toolkits which come in those plastic toolkits which sell for between $40-and-$60 (depending on where you buy them).

If I still lived in Woodridge, I'd give you one of my extra ones ...

 

[alfeng]

So you re-use your existing pin, what is "IN SITU"? In the past I've always re-used the pins on my older hyperglide chains for 7 and 8 speeds, never had a problem.
--Bob

Oh, in situ is my stupid way of saying the pin/rivet that is still on the "back" link which hasn't been pushed all-the-way through-and-off the chain ... i.e., the pin that is (hopefully) still "in place" on the "back" plate of the link.

YES, I simply re-use the pin that is pushed through to break the chain with Shimano's 9-speed chains ... but, those "special" pins are probably a good-thing to have in your road kit ... OR, if you don't have a 9-speed chain tool because the "special" pins (sorry, I just can't recall what Shimano calls them) ARE slightly easier to insert because of the coned tip (maybe, they're coated or a nanometer smaller, also).

BTW. I'm sure you CAN mutilate a LIFU tool if you are careless ... but, most seem to be made with pretty good quality (sometimes, forged) steel ... you can tell the ones which are NOT forged (i.e. stamped metal) pretty readily.

 

[palewin]

Oh, in situ is my stupid way of saying the pin/rivet that is still on the "back" link which hasn't been pushed all-the-way through-and-off the chain ... i.e., the pin that is (hopefully) still "in place" on the "back" plate of the link.

Sorry, but this thread is making me nervous. Shimano is very specific in their instructions that [at least] on their 10-speed chains, you should use the special replacement pins, not the old "in situ" pin. In fact the difference between the 7800 and 7801 10-speed chains is that they modified the replacement pin to make proper seating a little easier, the ultra-narrow chains are notoriously finicky to install (i.e. to properly seat the pin). What all this means is that you can use the old "in situ" pin, but it weakens the chain. Will it fail? Who knows, but I sure don't want to get to the end of a race, launch my [admittedly feeble] sprint, and wonder if the chain is going to separate! With the 7801 pins you have to "feel" three distinct seatings; after the 2nd slight "give" the pin looks seated, but it isn't all the way there; the 3rd "give" does the trick. Then the end breaks off cleanly. Shimano also says that when the pin is in correctly you should not need the old trick of gently bending the chain sideways to avoid a stiff link (the bending again weakens the chain); when the pin is in correctly it allows the link to move smoothly right away. As a last comment, I use my Park CT3 chain break which is advertised as 10-speed compatible, even though it doesn't quite snug up the backplate of the chain; the shop mechanics at my LBS use it as well on 10-speed chains. One of these days I might pick up Shimano's tool which may be designed for the narrower chain, but like many of us, I prefer to save a little cash and use the tool I already own.

 

[alfeng]

Sorry, but this thread is making me nervous. Shimano is very specific in their instructions that [at least] on their 10-speed chains, you should use the special replacement pins, not the old "in situ" pin. In fact the difference between the 7800 and 7801 10-speed chains is that they modified the replacement pin to make proper seating a little easier, the ultra-narrow chains are notoriously finicky to install (i.e. to properly seat the pin). What all this means is that you can use the old "in situ" pin, but it weakens the chain. Will it fail? Who knows, but I sure don't want to get to the end of a race, launch my [admittedly feeble] sprint, and wonder if the chain is going to separate! With the 7801 pins you have to "feel" three distinct seatings; after the 2nd slight "give" the pin looks seated, but it isn't all the way there; the 3rd "give" does the trick. Then the end breaks off cleanly. Shimano also says that when the pin is in correctly you should not need the old trick of gently bending the chain sideways to avoid a stiff link (the bending again weakens the chain); when the pin is in correctly it allows the link to move smoothly right away. As a last comment, I use my Park CT3 chain break which is advertised as 10-speed compatible, even though it doesn't quite snug up the backplate of the chain; the shop mechanics at my LBS use it as well on 10-speed chains. One of these days I might pick up Shimano's tool which may be designed for the narrower chain, but like many of us, I prefer to save a little cash and use the tool I already own.

Yes, it may not be a particularly good idea to re-use the "in situ" pin when reconnecting a chain's links on a Shimano 10-speed chain ...

As misfortune would have it, I know exactly what Shimano is warning against ... but, I was just re-installing an old SEDIS narrow (which is what an 8-speed Shimano chain APPEARS TO BE) ... was sloppy, and although I noted that the "back" plate wasn't snugged on the pin, I took the bike on the road ...

Well, all was well and good UNTIL the derailleur happened to push against the unsecured link ... the next thing I know, I'm yards down the road past where the chain had fallen off.

The moral of THAT story is that IF you can get the back plate on the pin/rivet to seat properly, then you are probably good-to-go AND I strongly suspect that to be the weakness that Shimano is concerned about when a chain tool which can't snug up against the "back" plate is used. That is, I don't think the link is actually weakened as suggested by Shimano ... rather, the connection (as in "linkage") is weakened ... you know, a possible translation problem.

The Park chain tool which WAS spec'd for 10-speed may have been for a Campagnolo compatible chain which isn't really that narrow ... hence, the common substitution of a SRAM 89 or 89R chains with the Campagnolo 10-speed drivetrains.

The 10-speed Shimano chain IS narrower, still; so, it may indeed be problematic to re-use the in situ rivet on a 10-speed Shimano chain.

AND YES, flexing the chain laterally is to be avoided -- you can test the installation of the re-installed in situ pin by simply allowing the chain to articulate in its normal manner ... if it binds, then you have to approach the rivet from the "back" side ... repeating-as-necessary, until the chain articulates properly ... this can take several minutes vs. the one-minute it takes to install Shimano's special, installation pin.

Just as an aside, it was MY observation & deduction (which may not be correct) that ONE of the goals which Shimano's engineers have tried to accomplish over the past 30 years is to make their components MORE desireable to bicycle makers (and, bike shop mechanics) by making assembly FASTER when a Shimano component is used rather than that of another company ... hence, the possible, original rationale for cartridge bottom brackets, amongst other things. The special, replacement chain pins follows that philosophy of speed-of-assembly/re-assembly ...

Oh, and the rationale wasn't necessarily altruistic, but rather as a marketing tool:

"you can avoid assembly bottlenecks by using our components when you're assembling bikes."​

Of course, I may be giving Shimano's engineers more credit than they deserve ... or, I may be too cynical.