Chalo among the fashion victims and other impressionables



A

Andre Jute

Guest
Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:

> Andre Jute wrote:
> > http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Trek Navigator L700 Smover.html

>
> The, um, "customized" elements of your bike are funny.


Always happy to entertain a clown and bask in his well-qualified
approval.

> I'm a little
> surprised that you don't ride a recumbent,


I look down on Range Rovers, and lean over to make eye contact
directly into the faces of their drivers. They give me a very big
berth. I did have a recumbent but after a week gave it away; it
reminded me too much of driving a Porsche to work in the city, under
hub height to the buses either side. I'm too old and too smart for
that macho ****.

>since you seem to think
> that the design consensus of the last 100 years is all wrong.


You mean all that "consensus" that produced the racing bike? It is
driven by considerations that have nothing to do with me. I am not
interested in the fatuous "efficiency" of racing but in the ergonomics
of comfort and I have the strength of will and the intelligence to get
precisely what I want, regardless of what fashion victims and other
impressionables tell me I should want because everyone else wants it.
(I was once an advertising executive; most people -- meaning everyone
who isn't an Outer Mongolian goatherd -- on this conference consume or
aspire to goods I made them want, or my disciples or my copycats. I
wouldn't in a million years let some bike-pusher do it to me in turn.)

> The bar position of your bike is more Dutch than the Dutch,


Really? Compare with my genuine Dutch stadsportief from the Rolls-
Royce of Dutch city bike makers, Gazelle, photo here (not the offroad
bike at the top of the page, the city bike about halfway down the
page):
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Bauhaus.html

Also on that page you can find my opinion of the sort of bike you want
me to ride. For those too slack to check, the article opens:
"The reason most sensible people don't cycle is that the bicycles in
the shops are instruments of torture deliberately misshapen by various
forms of racing. Add annual model cycles in bicycles that impress only
unreconstructed teenage fashion victims, and it becomes easy to see
why politicians and Greens who express surprise that more people do
not cycle are either stupid or disingenuous. Most modern bikes are
like women's clothes designed by misogynists: created primarily to
make the buyer look ridiculous, and to be carelessly discarded when
the next fad comes along. Instant trash, bikes and clothes both."

Finally, being more Dutch than the Dutch in matters bicycle is A Good
Thing. There are probably more Dutch city bikes in The Netherlands
than there are bicycles in the entire United States. Now that is a
class of popularity worth paying attention to.

>but the
> seat tube angle is all American.


I don't suppose the subtleties of the citybike subclassifications have
reached the States yet. Both my Gazelle Toulouse and my Trek L700
Navigator "Smover" are stadsportiefs, or city-sports bikes. The seat
tube angle is not as relaxed as in the traditional black crow city
bike, nor the wheelbase as long. A genuine stadfiets on the
traditional pattern is slow-handling; I dart in and out of fastmoving
traffic to get to my favourite country lanes, so I want something that
turns in quicker than the most conservative style of stadfiets.

>Doesn't that combination make you
> feel like you are pantomiming riding a bike while standing in a
> telephone booth?


It is exceedingly comfortable. I smell and see the countryside, and
talk to the pretty ladies who wait up to ride with me. When was the
last time a woman last wanted to go riding with you, Chalo?

As for the wannabe cruel wit of "pantomiming", hell, boy, if I do
something, soon everyone else does it. It's called charisma. Pantomime
is what selfconscious people do before they fearfully revert to
fitting in with the crowd, to becoming fashion victims once more.

> Don't get me wrong; I like a nice comfy upright position as much as
> the next guy-- a lot more than the next guy, actually-- but I wouldn't
> want to ride standing straight up with my butt propped up as if on the
> edge of a counter.


I don't stand up. I sit comfortably, slumped a little with my back
bent.

Doesn't sitting on a racing bike, being neutered every passing second,
make you feel like a fat gorilla crouching in an undersized cage? I
mean, do you really have the shape to ponce around pretending you're
Lance Armstrong? (I have -- see
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/andre_jute_kissing_the_blarney_stone.jpg
but I also have my mind in gear, so I don't bother.) I think nothing
is more ridiculous than some paunchy middleaged sedentarist crouching
over his potbelly with his **** higher than his head and hamstrings
from hell pumping away madly on his white legs in his unsuitable
shorts.

>That seems like it could combine the tired feet I
> get from just walking around


Walking is for people who haven't yet discovered the advantage of the
wheel.

>with the average speed of just walking
> around.


You walk at an average of 13Km per hour? No wonder your feet hurt!

Nah, seriously, Chalo, you should have looked more closely at the
photographs on my netsite.The Gazelle Toulouse has a disc front brake
and a no-tools adjustable handlebar height for a reason. Click,
handbars down and rotated to put the handles well forward and pointing
down, click to lock the setting in, and I'm a speed maniac; for
instance, I got booked by the police for doing 43mph past a hospital,
and I've done well over 100Km/h on that bike, going downhill of
course. It's a sleeper like a BMW Isetta bubblecar I once fitted up
with Jaguar V12 engine on rails out the back...

> Chalo


Ciao, Chalo.

Andre Jute
Visit Andre Jute at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
 
B

Bill Sornson

Guest
datakoll wrote:

> WHAT THE (*&y&$$%2453600 IS THIS ABOUT?


Glab.

(Glam 'n flab.)

HTH!
 
A

Andre Jute

Guest
On Jan 22, 11:51 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> WHAT THE (*&y&$$%2453600 IS THIS ABOUT?


Couldn't agree more. Chalo knows what it's about: Maybe we should ask
him.

Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Trek Navigator L700%...

> The, um, "customized" elements of your bike are funny.


Always happy to entertain a clown and bask in his well-qualified
approval.

> I'm a little
> surprised that you don't ride a recumbent,


I look down on Range Rovers, and lean over to make eye contact
directly into the faces of their drivers. They give me a very big
berth. I did have a recumbent but after a week gave it away; it
reminded me too much of driving a Porsche to work in the city, under
hub height to the buses either side. I'm too old and too smart for
that macho ****.

>since you seem to think
> that the design consensus of the last 100 years is all wrong.


You mean all that "consensus" that produced the racing bike? It is
driven by considerations that have nothing to do with me. I am not
interested in the fatuous "efficiency" of racing but in the
ergonomics
of comfort and I have the strength of will and the intelligence to
get
precisely what I want, regardless of what fashion victims and other
impressionables tell me I should want because everyone else wants it.
(I was once an advertising executive; most people -- meaning everyone
who isn't an Outer Mongolian goatherd -- on this conference consume
or
aspire to goods I made them want, or my disciples or my copycats. I
wouldn't in a million years let some bike-pusher do it to me in
turn.)
> The bar position of your bike is more Dutch than the Dutch,


Really? Compare with my genuine Dutch stadsportief from the Rolls-
Royce of Dutch city bike makers, Gazelle, photo here (not the offroad
bike at the top of the page, the city bike about halfway down the
page):
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Bauhaus.html
Also on that page you can find my opinion of the sort of bike you
want
me to ride. For those too slack to check, the article opens:
"The reason most sensible people don't cycle is that the bicycles in
the shops are instruments of torture deliberately misshapen by
various
forms of racing. Add annual model cycles in bicycles that impress
only
unreconstructed teenage fashion victims, and it becomes easy to see
why politicians and Greens who express surprise that more people do
not cycle are either stupid or disingenuous. Most modern bikes are
like women's clothes designed by misogynists: created primarily to
make the buyer look ridiculous, and to be carelessly discarded when
the next fad comes along. Instant trash, bikes and clothes both."
Finally, being more Dutch than the Dutch in matters bicycle is A Good
Thing. There are probably more Dutch city bikes in The Netherlands
than there are bicycles in the entire United States. Now that is a
class of popularity worth paying attention to.

>but the
> seat tube angle is all American.


I don't suppose the subtleties of the citybike subclassifications
have
reached the States yet. Both my Gazelle Toulouse and my Trek L700
Navigator "Smover" are stadsportiefs, or city-sports bikes. The seat
tube angle is not as relaxed as in the traditional black crow city
bike, nor the wheelbase as long. A genuine stadfiets on the
traditional pattern is slow-handling; I dart in and out of fastmoving
traffic to get to my favourite country lanes, so I want something
that
turns in quicker than the most conservative style of stadfiets.

>Doesn't that combination make you
> feel like you are pantomiming riding a bike while standing in a
> telephone booth?


It is exceedingly comfortable. I smell and see the countryside, and
talk to the pretty ladies who wait up to ride with me. When was the
last time a woman last wanted to go riding with you, Chalo?

As for the wannabe cruel wit of "pantomiming", hell, boy, if I do
something, soon everyone else does it. It's called charisma.
Pantomime
is what selfconscious people do before they fearfully revert to
fitting in with the crowd, to becoming fashion victims once more.

> Don't get me wrong; I like a nice comfy upright position as much as
> the next guy-- a lot more than the next guy, actually-- but I wouldn't
> want to ride standing straight up with my butt propped up as if on the
> edge of a counter.


I don't stand up. I sit comfortably, slumped a little with my back
bent.

Doesn't sitting on a racing bike, being neutered every passing
second,
make you feel like a fat gorilla crouching in an undersized cage? I
mean, do you really have the shape to ponce around pretending you're
Lance Armstrong? (I have -- see
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/andre_jute_kissing_the_blarney_sto...
but I also have my mind in gear, so I don't bother.) I think nothing
is more ridiculous than some paunchy middleaged sedentarist crouching
over his potbelly with his **** higher than his head and hamstrings
from hell pumping away madly on his white legs in his unsuitable
shorts.

>That seems like it could combine the tired feet I
> get from just walking around


Walking is for people who haven't yet discovered the advantage of the
wheel.
>with the average speed of just walking
> around.


You walk at an average of 13Km per hour? No wonder your feet hurt!
Nah, seriously, Chalo, you should have looked more closely at the
photographs on my netsite.The Gazelle Toulouse has a disc front brake
and a no-tools adjustable handlebar height for a reason. Click,
handbars down and rotated to put the handles well forward and
pointing
down, click to lock the setting in, and I'm a speed maniac; for
instance, I got booked by the police for doing 43mph past a hospital,
and I've done well over 100Km/h on that bike, going downhill of
course. It's a sleeper like a BMW Isetta bubblecar I once fitted up
with Jaguar V12 engine on rails out the back...

> Chalo


Ciao, Chalo.
Andre Jute
Visit Andre Jute at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
 
C

Chalo

Guest
Andre Jute wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> >
> > since you seem to think
> > that the design consensus of the last 100 years is all wrong.

>
> You mean all that "consensus" that produced the racing bike?


No, I mean the consensus that produced the bicycle. I consider bikes
as they are designed for transportational use in places like the
Netherlands, India, and China to be far more representative of good
ergonomics than racing bikes are (and far closer to the average bike
of the last century). Such bikes feature high bars, sprung seats, and
slack angles. These features and others work together. Using an even
higher bar, but combined with a steeper seat angle, opens the leg-to-
torso angle and greatly reduces the ability of the gluteus muscle
group to share the work.

> > The bar position of your bike is more Dutch than the Dutch,

>
> Really? Compare with my genuine Dutch stadsportief from the Rolls-
> Royce of Dutch city bike makers, Gazelle, photo here (not the offroad
> bike at the top of the page, the city bike about halfway down the
> page):http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Bauhaus.html


Is it just me, or is the fork of that bike bent severely backwards?
Is that another one of your enhancements?

You done a number on that bike, too. I have a pristine Gazelle
Primeur in my shed, and I've done a lot of looking for a nice 70cm
opafiets for myself. I'm pretty familiar with the traditional and
proven Dutch riding posture, and you Toulouse doesn't quite have it.
My friend Todd Fahrner wrote a blog entry on the subject, and it even
touches on people's typical problems with the kind of rider
positioning you use:

http://clevercycles.com/?p=193


> Finally, being more Dutch than the Dutch in matters bicycle is A Good
> Thing.


It's a good thing. What you seem to misunderstand or else disregard
is that the Dutch bike is a whole system; you can't just transplant
sky-high handlebars onto a steep bike and get a reasonably effective
body position. The frame angles, bar height, fork rake, chainstay
length, and other factors either work together, or they don't.

> >but the
> > seat tube angle is all American.

>
> I don't suppose the subtleties of the citybike subclassifications have
> reached the States yet. Both my Gazelle Toulouse and my Trek L700
> Navigator "Smover" are stadsportiefs, or city-sports bikes. The seat
> tube angle is not as relaxed as in the traditional black crow city
> bike, nor the wheelbase as long.


And to go along with the steeper angles and shorter wheelbase, the
sportier sort of stadtfiets uses a complementary rider position, with
lower bars and more forward reach than an opafiets:

http://www.fietsgigant.com/assortiment-fietsendetails.php?id=5004

These things are not simply coincidental, nor style-driven. They are
part of a functional package.

> I smell and see the countryside, and
> talk to the pretty ladies who wait up to ride with me. When was the
> last time a woman last wanted to go riding with you, Chalo?


The only pretty lady of any interest to me never seems to want to
leave the house on a bike unless I go with her. http://datribean.com/
Despite the fact that she is not particularly athletic about cycling
or anything else, she much prefers her current road bike, with MTB
bars placed more or less at saddle level, to her previous bike, an
aluminum framed cruiser with a 5-speed gearhub and high-rise BMX
bars.

> As for the wannabe cruel wit of "pantomiming",


I meant only that if you were inside a phone booth, you would not be
able to _actually ride_ a bike, only pantomime doing so. It was not
to suggest that you don't really ride your bike. If that were the
case, you would not bother with the effort to make your bike so odd.

> > Don't get me wrong; I like a nice comfy upright position as much as
> > the next guy-- a lot more than the next guy, actually-- but I wouldn't
> > want to ride standing straight up with my butt propped up as if on the
> > edge of a counter.

>
> I don't stand up. I sit comfortably, slumped a little with my back
> bent.


I have one of those ridiculous Ergo The Seat saddles on a sidecar I
built-- after several tries, I could not find another bike on which it
made any sense-- and despite that machine having a 70 degree seat
angle (slacker than your Trek), I can't really sit on the thing so
much as perch on its edge. It works for the sidecar because bumps
under the side wheel cause the saddle to jerk sideways. No saddle
nose means no beat-up inner thighs. But on a normal bike, having no
saddle nose makes me feel about as secure on the bike as pedaling on
bare spindles from which the pedal bodies have parted ways.

> Doesn't sitting on a racing bike, being neutered every passing second,
> make you feel like a fat gorilla crouching in an undersized cage?


It probably would if I rode such a bike. But I don't.

The last bike on this page is fairly typical of the bikes I ride:
http://chalo.org/

At the time I took a picture of it, I had stripped the teeth out of my
triple-rail Brooks saddle's clamp, so the picture shows only a bare
seatpost I installed to keep dust and debris out of the frame.

Chalo
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Andre Jute wrote:
> Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>> http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Trek Navigator L700 Smover.html

>> The, um, "customized" elements of your bike are funny.

>
> Always happy to entertain a clown and bask in his well-qualified
> approval.
>
>> I'm a little
>> surprised that you don't ride a recumbent,

>
> I look down on Range Rovers, and lean over to make eye contact
> directly into the faces of their drivers. They give me a very big
> berth. I did have a recumbent but after a week gave it away; it
> reminded me too much of driving a Porsche to work in the city, under
> hub height to the buses either side. I'm too old and too smart for
> that macho ****.
>
>> since you seem to think
>> that the design consensus of the last 100 years is all wrong.

>
> You mean all that "consensus" that produced the racing bike? It is
> driven by considerations that have nothing to do with me. I am not
> interested in the fatuous "efficiency" of racing but in the ergonomics
> of comfort and I have the strength of will and the intelligence to get
> precisely what I want, regardless of what fashion victims and other
> impressionables tell me I should want because everyone else wants it.
> (I was once an advertising executive; most people -- meaning everyone
> who isn't an Outer Mongolian goatherd -- on this conference consume or
> aspire to goods I made them want, or my disciples or my copycats. I
> wouldn't in a million years let some bike-pusher do it to me in turn.)
>
>> The bar position of your bike is more Dutch than the Dutch,

>
> Really? Compare with my genuine Dutch stadsportief from the Rolls-
> Royce of Dutch city bike makers, Gazelle, photo here (not the offroad
> bike at the top of the page, the city bike about halfway down the
> page):
> http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Bauhaus.html
>
> Also on that page you can find my opinion of the sort of bike you want
> me to ride. For those too slack to check, the article opens:
> "The reason most sensible people don't cycle is that the bicycles in
> the shops are instruments of torture deliberately misshapen by various
> forms of racing. Add annual model cycles in bicycles that impress only
> unreconstructed teenage fashion victims, and it becomes easy to see
> why politicians and Greens who express surprise that more people do
> not cycle are either stupid or disingenuous. Most modern bikes are
> like women's clothes designed by misogynists: created primarily to
> make the buyer look ridiculous, and to be carelessly discarded when
> the next fad comes along. Instant trash, bikes and clothes both."
>
> Finally, being more Dutch than the Dutch in matters bicycle is A Good
> Thing. There are probably more Dutch city bikes in The Netherlands
> than there are bicycles in the entire United States. Now that is a
> class of popularity worth paying attention to.
>
>> but the
>> seat tube angle is all American.

>
> I don't suppose the subtleties of the citybike subclassifications have
> reached the States yet. Both my Gazelle Toulouse and my Trek L700
> Navigator "Smover" are stadsportiefs, or city-sports bikes. The seat
> tube angle is not as relaxed as in the traditional black crow city
> bike, nor the wheelbase as long. A genuine stadfiets on the
> traditional pattern is slow-handling; I dart in and out of fastmoving
> traffic to get to my favourite country lanes, so I want something that
> turns in quicker than the most conservative style of stadfiets.
>
>> Doesn't that combination make you
>> feel like you are pantomiming riding a bike while standing in a
>> telephone booth?

>
> It is exceedingly comfortable. I smell and see the countryside, and
> talk to the pretty ladies who wait up to ride with me. When was the
> last time a woman last wanted to go riding with you, Chalo?
>
> As for the wannabe cruel wit of "pantomiming", hell, boy, if I do
> something, soon everyone else does it. It's called charisma. Pantomime
> is what selfconscious people do before they fearfully revert to
> fitting in with the crowd, to becoming fashion victims once more.
>
>> Don't get me wrong; I like a nice comfy upright position as much as
>> the next guy-- a lot more than the next guy, actually-- but I wouldn't
>> want to ride standing straight up with my butt propped up as if on the
>> edge of a counter.

>
> I don't stand up. I sit comfortably, slumped a little with my back
> bent.
>
> Doesn't sitting on a racing bike, being neutered every passing second,
> make you feel like a fat gorilla crouching in an undersized cage? I
> mean, do you really have the shape to ponce around pretending you're
> Lance Armstrong? (I have -- see
> http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/andre_jute_kissing_the_blarney_stone.jpg
> but I also have my mind in gear, so I don't bother.) I think nothing
> is more ridiculous than some paunchy middleaged sedentarist crouching
> over his potbelly with his **** higher than his head and hamstrings
> from hell pumping away madly on his white legs in his unsuitable
> shorts.
>
>> That seems like it could combine the tired feet I
>> get from just walking around

>
> Walking is for people who haven't yet discovered the advantage of the
> wheel.
>
>> with the average speed of just walking
>> around.

>
> You walk at an average of 13Km per hour? No wonder your feet hurt!
>
> Nah, seriously, Chalo, you should have looked more closely at the
> photographs on my netsite.The Gazelle Toulouse has a disc front brake
> and a no-tools adjustable handlebar height for a reason. Click,
> handbars down and rotated to put the handles well forward and pointing
> down, click to lock the setting in, and I'm a speed maniac; for
> instance, I got booked by the police for doing 43mph past a hospital,
> and I've done well over 100Km/h on that bike, going downhill of
> course. It's a sleeper like a BMW Isetta bubblecar I once fitted up
> with Jaguar V12 engine on rails out the back...
>

Mr. Jute shows a very poor awareness of what type of bicycles Chalo
Colina actually prefers and rides.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth
 
B

Ben C

Guest
On 2008-01-22, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> Really? Compare with my genuine Dutch stadsportief from the Rolls-
> Royce of Dutch city bike makers, Gazelle, photo here (not the offroad
> bike at the top of the page, the city bike about halfway down the
> page):
> http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Bauhaus.html


I think you mean "sportfiet" not "sportief". And the proper word might
be "sportfiets" but better check with someone who actually knows Dutch.
 
On Jan 22, 5:12 pm, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:

(snipped)

Actually, I think you're doing OK, except for your attitude.

IOW, your bike suits you. Fine. I wouldn't ride it (much less own it)
on a bet. Which opinion, ordinarily, I wouldn't express. Smile and a
wave; but it looks like a return from you would be highly unlikely
since I'd be on one of my road bikes, with a club jersey on, and you
can't handle any of that.

When a large part of your self esteem comes (organically, it seems,
with you) from putting down others, there's something wrong.

Other people, and lots of them, too, are at least as smart as you are,
without having the shitty attitude about it.

"Enjoy the day". --D-y
 
A

Andre Jute

Guest
Chalo, you missed the point altogether. My bikes fit me and suit my
purposes. That's all that matters.

You missed some other points as well that are more important to you
than to me. My Gazelle Toulouse is standard, the fork is not bent, the
handlebars are at a height commonly found in the Benelux; dealers
routinely on delivery set the stem to swivel the handlebars well over
towards the seat on this class of Dutch city bike. You really want to
familiarize yourself with Gazelle's bike naming conventions: there
aren't any except what is profitable. Thus several frame types and
geometries can appear and disappear under a single name, for instance
Chamonix or Orange; the Chamonix that you point to as a sample bears
no relation to my Toulouse except through the name (the Toulouse four
or five years ago was the more sporting version of the garden variety
Chamonix, which also has nothing in common except the name with the
current carbon or part-carbon bikes of the same name). Furthermore,
there are subtle categories within Dutch City bikes. My Toulouse for
instance is a stadssportief, a city sports. It is the sort of bike a
Dutchman who already has a black crow Primeur for riding to work will
buy to ride at weekends and on holiday. There are further subclasses
in the stadssportief related to comfort; the suspended and carbon fork
bikes share little more except a series name. The Gazelle you showed
me on the net has zero in common with any of my bikes under
discussion. Next thing you missed is that the point-less seats you
dislike so much, or at least the Cheeko 90 that I use, moves the
centre of the bum back by enough to restore a medium-relaxed pedalling
geometry; it is no good you just looking at the seat tube angle and
concluding all kinds of misinformation from that; you want the
relationship between the hip-joint and the pedal. Mind you, it is a
common mistake: I made it myself. I ordered the Trek blind from a
dealer a couple of countries and seas over thataways, unseen, merely
to get the Cyber Nexus groupset and those superb Bontrager wheels; I
intended fitting the components to a custom stainless frame and giving
the Trek frame away. But when the Trek arrived, I found the frame so
well-built that, when my preferred seat relaxed the seating position,
I went to the trouble of making the Trek fit me, with the enthusiastic
cooperation of Trek Benelux I might add.

I liked your red bike; your CNC parts are super. Some of the other
bikes on your site have less impressive engineering and one is
fundamentally dangerous.

I wrote a fuller reply but trashed it so as to prevent Dustoevsky
again concluding that I was flinging around "attitude" and putting you
down; why the devil should I do that to a guy who does CNC at the drop
of a hat -- I'm for more likely to suck up to such useful people. Wit,
it seems, is perilous on the internet.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE & CYCLING.html


On Jan 23, 3:47 am, Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
>
> > Chalo wrote:

>
> > > since you seem to think
> > > that the design consensus of the last 100 years is all wrong.

>
> > You mean all that "consensus" that produced the racing bike?

>
> No, I mean the consensus that produced the bicycle. I consider bikes
> as they are designed for transportational use in places like the
> Netherlands, India, and China to be far more representative of good
> ergonomics than racing bikes are (and far closer to the average bike
> of the last century). Such bikes feature high bars, sprung seats, and
> slack angles. These features and others work together. Using an even
> higher bar, but combined with a steeper seat angle, opens the leg-to-
> torso angle and greatly reduces the ability of the gluteus muscle
> group to share the work.
>
> > > The bar position of your bike is more Dutch than the Dutch,

>
> > Really? Compare with my genuine Dutch stadsportief from the Rolls-
> > Royce of Dutch city bike makers, Gazelle, photo here (not the offroad
> > bike at the top of the page, the city bike about halfway down the
> > page):http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Bauhaus.html

>
> Is it just me, or is the fork of that bike bent severely backwards?
> Is that another one of your enhancements?
>
> You done a number on that bike, too. I have a pristine Gazelle
> Primeur in my shed, and I've done a lot of looking for a nice 70cm
> opafiets for myself. I'm pretty familiar with the traditional and
> proven Dutch riding posture, and you Toulouse doesn't quite have it.
> My friend Todd Fahrner wrote a blog entry on the subject, and it even
> touches on people's typical problems with the kind of rider
> positioning you use:
>
> http://clevercycles.com/?p=193
>
> > Finally, being more Dutch than the Dutch in matters bicycle is A Good
> > Thing.

>
> It's a good thing. What you seem to misunderstand or else disregard
> is that the Dutch bike is a whole system; you can't just transplant
> sky-high handlebars onto a steep bike and get a reasonably effective
> body position. The frame angles, bar height, fork rake, chainstay
> length, and other factors either work together, or they don't.
>
> > >but the
> > > seat tube angle is all American.

>
> > I don't suppose the subtleties of the citybike subclassifications have
> > reached the States yet. Both my Gazelle Toulouse and my Trek L700
> > Navigator "Smover" are stadsportiefs, or city-sports bikes. The seat
> > tube angle is not as relaxed as in the traditional black crow city
> > bike, nor the wheelbase as long.

>
> And to go along with the steeper angles and shorter wheelbase, the
> sportier sort of stadtfiets uses a complementary rider position, with
> lower bars and more forward reach than an opafiets:
>
> http://www.fietsgigant.com/assortiment-fietsendetails.php?id=5004
>
> These things are not simply coincidental, nor style-driven. They are
> part of a functional package.
>
> > I smell and see the countryside, and
> > talk to the pretty ladies who wait up to ride with me. When was the
> > last time a woman last wanted to go riding with you, Chalo?

>
> The only pretty lady of any interest to me never seems to want to
> leave the house on a bike unless I go with her. http://datribean.com/
> Despite the fact that she is not particularly athletic about cycling
> or anything else, she much prefers her current road bike, with MTB
> bars placed more or less at saddle level, to her previous bike, an
> aluminum framed cruiser with a 5-speed gearhub and high-rise BMX
> bars.
>
> > As for the wannabe cruel wit of "pantomiming",

>
> I meant only that if you were inside a phone booth, you would not be
> able to _actually ride_ a bike, only pantomime doing so. It was not
> to suggest that you don't really ride your bike. If that were the
> case, you would not bother with the effort to make your bike so odd.
>
> > > Don't get me wrong; I like a nice comfy upright position as much as
> > > the next guy-- a lot more than the next guy, actually-- but I wouldn't
> > > want to ride standing straight up with my butt propped up as if on the
> > > edge of a counter.

>
> > I don't stand up. I sit comfortably, slumped a little with my back
> > bent.

>
> I have one of those ridiculous Ergo The Seat saddles on a sidecar I
> built-- after several tries, I could not find another bike on which it
> made any sense-- and despite that machine having a 70 degree seat
> angle (slacker than your Trek), I can't really sit on the thing so
> much as perch on its edge. It works for the sidecar because bumps
> under the side wheel cause the saddle to jerk sideways. No saddle
> nose means no beat-up inner thighs. But on a normal bike, having no
> saddle nose makes me feel about as secure on the bike as pedaling on
> bare spindles from which the pedal bodies have parted ways.
>
> > Doesn't sitting on a racing bike, being neutered every passing second,
> > make you feel like a fat gorilla crouching in an undersized cage?

>
> It probably would if I rode such a bike. But I don't.
>
> The last bike on this page is fairly typical of the bikes I ride:http://chalo.org/
>
> At the time I took a picture of it, I had stripped the teeth out of my
> triple-rail Brooks saddle's clamp, so the picture shows only a bare
> seatpost I installed to keep dust and debris out of the frame.
>
> Chalo
 
A

Andre Jute

Guest
On Jan 23, 8:40 am, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2008-01-22, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
> [...]
>
> > Really? Compare with my genuine Dutch stadsportief from the Rolls-
> > Royce of Dutch city bike makers, Gazelle, photo here (not the offroad
> > bike at the top of the page, the city bike about halfway down the
> > page):
> >http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Bauhaus.html

>
> I think you mean "sportfiet" not "sportief". And the proper word might
> be "sportfiets" but better check with someone who actually knows Dutch.


Thanks for pointing out the spelling error, Ben. Careless of me.
Here's the right gen:

Stadsfiets = city bike
Stadssportief = city-sports or perhaps more pedantically city-
sporting, also called "town and country" by Koga-Miyata

Andre Jute
High Dutch, Double Dutch and Dutch Courage
 
On Jan 22, 5:12 pm, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:

(snipped)

Hey, I see two fairly quick replies from "Andre Jute" added after my
response.

Did you have anything nice to say?

Couldn't fit it all in one post, or was there an esprit d'escalier
incident?

Regards, D-y
 
D

D'ohBoy

Guest
On Jan 22, 5:51 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> WHAT THE (*&y&$$%2453600 IS THIS ABOUT?



Gene:

Really? YOU complaining about clarity in someone's posting?

D'ohBoy
 
A

Andre Jute

Guest
On Jan 23, 1:55 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 22, 5:12 pm, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> (snipped)
>
> Actually, I think you're doing OK, except for your attitude.


Attitude? Moi? Come off it, Dusto.

> IOW, your bike suits you. Fine.


It's all that matters, surely?

>I wouldn't ride it (much less own it)
> on a bet. Which opinion, ordinarily, I wouldn't express.


Whyever not? The sainted Chalo expressed it, albeit more
circumspectly.

>Smile and a
> wave; but it looks like a return from you would be highly unlikely
> since I'd be on one of my road bikes, with a club jersey on, and you
> can't handle any of that.


Eh? I don't care what you ride and what you wear. If a road bike suits
you and you belong to the club, great, if neither is true you're lunch
for the hidden persauders, my guys, who are also entitled to a living.
But either way I would smile and wave and if you had a flat stop to
offer you the tube I carry precisely for that purpose (my own tires
are punctureproof) and tools and a pump as required, and share my
water with you. I live in a very friendly country where it is not done
to show impatience when people stop you to talk about your bike or the
weather. Last year I found a longdistance cyclist with a broken carbon
seatpost and brought him home and spent half the day finding him a
replacement and a place to stay in the next town and rearranging his
flights because he was on a tight schedule.

> When a large part of your self esteem comes (organically, it seems,
> with you) from putting down others, there's something wrong.


You're mistaking facility with words for an intention that just isn't
there. Why should I put down Chalo? He might be a very useful guy for
me to know, a machinist of genius, knowledgeable about ergonomics and
and geometries and bike bits I probably don't yet know exist.

You're way oversensitive to be a cyclist, Dusto.

> Other people, and lots of them, too, are at least as smart as you are,
> without having the shitty attitude about it.


Of course they are. Are you one of them?

> "Enjoy the day".  --D-y


Too few days left in my remaining thirty years to waste even one of
them on not enjoying the day. But here it is so wet and windy that I
gave up my ride and instead took my family out to lunch.

Andre "Mellow" Jute
 
A

Andre Jute

Guest
On Jan 23, 8:11 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >> Andre Jute wrote:
> >>>http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Trek Navigator L700%....
> >> The, um, "customized" elements of your bike are funny.

>
> > Always happy to entertain a clown and bask in his well-qualified
> > approval.

>
> >>  I'm a little
> >> surprised that you don't ride a recumbent,

>
> > I look down on Range Rovers, and lean over to make eye contact
> > directly into the faces of their drivers. They give me a very big
> > berth. I did have a recumbent but after a week gave it away; it
> > reminded me too much of driving a Porsche to work in the city, under
> > hub height to the buses either side. I'm too old and too smart for
> > that macho ****.

>
> >> since you seem to think
> >> that the design consensus of the last 100 years is all wrong.

>
> > You mean all that "consensus" that produced the racing bike? It is
> > driven by considerations that have nothing to do with me. I am not
> > interested in the fatuous "efficiency" of racing but in the ergonomics
> > of comfort and I have the strength of will and the intelligence to get
> > precisely what I want, regardless of what fashion victims and other
> > impressionables tell me I should want because everyone else wants it.
> > (I was once an advertising executive; most people -- meaning everyone
> > who isn't an Outer Mongolian goatherd -- on this conference consume or
> > aspire to goods I made them want, or my disciples or my copycats. I
> > wouldn't in a million years let some bike-pusher do it to me in turn.)

>
> >> The bar position of your bike is more Dutch than the Dutch,

>
> > Really? Compare with my genuine Dutch stadsportief from the Rolls-
> > Royce of Dutch city bike makers, Gazelle, photo here (not the offroad
> > bike at the top of the page, the city bike about halfway down the
> > page):
> >http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Bauhaus.html

>
> > Also on that page you can find my opinion of the sort of bike you want
> > me to ride. For those too slack to check, the article opens:
> > "The reason most sensible people don't cycle is that the bicycles in
> > the shops are instruments of torture deliberately misshapen by various
> > forms of racing. Add annual model cycles in bicycles that impress only
> > unreconstructed teenage fashion victims, and it becomes easy to see
> > why politicians and Greens who express surprise that more people do
> > not cycle are either stupid or disingenuous. Most modern bikes are
> > like women's clothes designed by misogynists: created primarily to
> > make the buyer look ridiculous, and to be carelessly discarded when
> > the next fad comes along. Instant trash, bikes and clothes both."

>
> > Finally, being more Dutch than the Dutch in matters bicycle is A Good
> > Thing. There are probably more Dutch city bikes in The Netherlands
> > than there are bicycles in the entire United States. Now that is a
> > class of popularity worth paying attention to.

>
> >> but the
> >> seat tube angle is all American.

>
> > I don't suppose the subtleties of the citybike subclassifications have
> > reached the States yet. Both my Gazelle Toulouse and my Trek L700
> > Navigator "Smover" are stadsportiefs, or city-sports bikes. The seat
> > tube angle is not as relaxed as in the traditional black crow city
> > bike, nor the wheelbase as long. A genuine stadfiets on the
> > traditional pattern is slow-handling; I dart in and out of fastmoving
> > traffic to get to my favourite country lanes, so I want something that
> > turns in quicker than the most conservative style of stadfiets.

>
> >> Doesn't that combination make you
> >> feel like you are pantomiming riding a bike while standing in a
> >> telephone booth?

>
> > It is exceedingly comfortable. I smell and see the countryside, and
> > talk to the pretty ladies who wait up to ride with me. When was the
> > last time a woman last wanted to go riding with you, Chalo?

>
> > As for the wannabe cruel wit of "pantomiming", hell, boy, if I do
> > something, soon everyone else does it. It's called charisma. Pantomime
> > is what selfconscious people do before they fearfully revert to
> > fitting in with the crowd, to becoming fashion victims once more.

>
> >> Don't get me wrong; I like a nice comfy upright position as much as
> >> the next guy-- a lot more than the next guy, actually-- but I wouldn't
> >> want to ride standing straight up with my butt propped up as if on the
> >> edge of a counter.

>
> > I don't stand up. I sit comfortably, slumped a little with my back
> > bent.

>
> > Doesn't sitting on a racing bike, being neutered every passing second,
> > make you feel like a fat gorilla crouching in an undersized cage? I
> > mean, do you really have the shape to ponce around pretending you're
> > Lance Armstrong? (I have -- see
> >http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/andre_jute_kissing_the_blarney_sto...
> > but I also have my mind in gear, so I don't bother.) I think nothing
> > is more ridiculous than some paunchy middleaged sedentarist crouching
> > over his potbelly with his **** higher than his head and hamstrings
> > from hell pumping away madly on his white legs in his unsuitable
> > shorts.

>
> >> That seems like it could combine the tired feet I
> >> get from just walking around

>
> > Walking is for people who haven't yet discovered the advantage of the
> > wheel.

>
> >> with the average speed of just walking
> >> around.

>
> > You walk at an average of 13Km per hour? No wonder your feet hurt!

>
> > Nah, seriously, Chalo, you should have looked more closely at the
> > photographs on my netsite.The Gazelle Toulouse has a disc front brake
> > and a no-tools adjustable handlebar height for a reason. Click,
> > handbars down and rotated to put the handles well forward and pointing
> > down, click to lock the setting in, and I'm a speed maniac; for
> > instance, I got booked by the police for doing 43mph past a hospital,
> > and I've done well over 100Km/h on that bike, going downhill of
> > course. It's a sleeper like a BMW Isetta bubblecar I once fitted up
> > with Jaguar V12 engine on rails out the back...

>
> Mr. Jute shows a very poor awareness of what type of bicycles Chalo
> Colina actually prefers and rides.


No longer. Chalo has kindly sent directions to various pages on his
netsite.

> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
> - A. Derleth


Grafitto on a lavatory wall at Langley:
"All intelligence careers end in failure."

Grafitto on a wall downtown:
"Life's a *****. And then you die."

Did Augustus cycle?

Andre Jute
A simple country feller
 
C

Clive George

Guest
"Andre Jute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]m...

> Nah, seriously, Chalo, you should have looked more closely at the
> photographs on my netsite.The Gazelle Toulouse has a disc front brake
> and a no-tools adjustable handlebar height for a reason. Click,
> handbars down and rotated to put the handles well forward and pointing
> down, click to lock the setting in, and I'm a speed maniac; for
> instance, I got booked by the police for doing 43mph past a hospital,
> and I've done well over 100Km/h on that bike, going downhill of
> course.


That's pretty fast - what hill?

cheers,
clive
 
M

M-gineering

Guest
Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-01-22, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
> [...]
>> Really? Compare with my genuine Dutch stadsportief from the Rolls-
>> Royce of Dutch city bike makers, Gazelle, photo here (not the offroad
>> bike at the top of the page, the city bike about halfway down the
>> page):
>> http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Bauhaus.html

>
> I think you mean "sportfiet" not "sportief". And the proper word might
> be "sportfiets" but better check with someone who actually knows Dutch.


GAzelle has a range 'Stad comfort' and 'stad sportief' ie 'city bloody
heavy and staid', and city and bloody heavy, staid and jazzed up with
some more ****. But that's only my opinion. the nice folks at Gazelle do
quite well with people who disagree ;)



--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl
 
A

Andre Jute

Guest
On Jan 23, 5:20 pm, "Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Andre Jute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:173a56d2-855[email protected]
>
> > Nah, seriously, Chalo, you should have looked more closely at the
> > photographs on my netsite.The Gazelle Toulouse has a disc front brake
> > and a no-tools adjustable handlebar height for a reason. Click,
> > handbars down and rotated to put the handles well forward and pointing
> > down, click to lock the setting in, and I'm a speed maniac; for
> > instance, I got booked by the police for doing 43mph past a hospital,
> > and I've done well over 100Km/h on that bike, going downhill of
> > course.

>
> That's pretty fast - what hill?
>
> cheers,
> clive


Not a famous hill. A tarmacadam farm lane. I asked the farmer who is
the only one to use the lane to tie up his dogs and park his tractor
across the bottom end of the lane to block it because I reckoned no
one would catch up on me from behind, then went for it. Don't try this
at home, kids.

Andre "Speedy Gonzales" Jute
 
L

Lou Holtman

Guest
Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-01-22, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
> [...]
>> Really? Compare with my genuine Dutch stadsportief from the Rolls-
>> Royce of Dutch city bike makers, Gazelle, photo here (not the offroad
>> bike at the top of the page, the city bike about halfway down the
>> page):
>> http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE Bauhaus.html

>
> I think you mean "sportfiet" not "sportief". And the proper word might
> be "sportfiets" but better check with someone who actually knows Dutch.



It is 'sportfiets'.

Lou, Dutch
 

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